"True" Israel?

[Randy Kluth]

The OT possition on Israel, is that of Jacob ! not the People in fact ! for Jacob was not Israel untill The Angle said he was so !

Not really. Giving Jacob the name "Israel" was a kind of prophecy, indicating that he would eventually become a nation. He was certainly not yet a nation when he was an individual or a family!

Out of all of Jacobs sons only 2 were of his own true sons, that he truly wanted in fact and the elder one of this true Wife was Jacobs one that he loved the most in fact and the rest hated this, so and tryed to kill him ! but sold him in the end ! then the younger Son of his true wife was his best son. the rest of the sons were not truly worthy of God in fact.
Jacob was tricked into the first wife and the other two women were not his wife's !

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Only Jacob was called by God to be the father of the nation Israel. Not just those of faith belonged to Israel--all who were members of the nation were called "Israel."

However, the Prophets pointed out that those in Israel who did not follow through on their initial faith would be in a sense "cut off" by God, due to their infidelity. They did not stop being named "Israel" but they would stop being associated with the Israel that God promised for eternity.

So this nonsense about all Jews being equal is rubbish !

I'm not sure who is saying that "all Jews are equal?" All Jews are equally named "Israel." But not all fit the prophetic description of the nation that will eventually commit to faith. They are, in a sense, "cut off" in God's mind. They are to be identified as ethnic and national Jews. But they are not faithful and will ultimately be set aside.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Not really. Giving Jacob the name "Israel" was a kind of prophecy, indicating that he would eventually become a nation. He was certainly not yet a nation when he was an individual or a family!

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Only Jacob was called by God to be the father of the nation Israel. Not just those of faith belonged to Israel--all who were members of the nation were called "Israel."

However, the Prophets pointed out that those in Israel who did not follow through on their initial faith would be in a sense "cut off" by God, due to their infidelity. They did not stop being named "Israel" but they would stop being associated with the Israel that God promised for eternity.

I'm not sure who is saying that "all Jews are equal?" All Jews are equally named "Israel." But not all fit the prophetic description of the nation that will eventually commit to faith. They are, in a sense, "cut off" in God's mind. They are to be identified as ethnic and national Jews. But they are not faithful and will ultimately be set aside.

Did you know that the State that only fools Named and called Israel is Not Israel yet ! As the Top Religious Jews do point out as a fact, but they hope that it will become Israel truly ! that's worthy of Gods Israel !

Now who is Israel ? well all of the Jews who became the First Christians were Israel in fact ? because Jesus is Christ in fact !

Now anyone who makes a claim that rejects that the first Christians were not Israel ! that is blasphmy as that is one worthy of Satan in fact ! It's Deception !

Nathaniel was a worthy Israelite ! and their is a good reason why Jesus said this was clearly so ! because it's a fact ! he was clearly worthy of God !

The Tribe means bugger all ! it's a Non issue one could say ? for the Issue is all in Jacob and Nathaniel !
No one can just by pass Jacob as to why he became Israel ! nor Nathaniel !

As any worthy Jew should clealy know the very foundations of why Jacob became Israel in fact !
Just as any worthy Christian should know that as well ! and also in regards Nathaniel is Israel totaly !

But we have criminal intent under the banner of so called Christianity that hides all about Nathaniel becoming Israel and in regards Nathaniel in fact ! for they idiot Priest run for the hills that the People may be educated on the subject ! for if One truly understood ! they could become Saved !!! for the scails before their eyes could become truly able to see clearly !
The Churches do not Save People ! Only Christ Jesus can Save in fact !

So the Churches run and hide from the topic in depth in regards Jacob and Nathaniel, for you may wake up !
Church denominations are a buisness first and foremost in fact ! They do not abide in Cahrist Jesus at all ! but hide their Sins under the carpet, like with all of their buddy child molesters etc !
The Key is in Jacob and Nathaniel as to why they were worthy of the God of Israel in fact ! Not the Tribe !
The Tribes all failed in fact ! because they took their eyes off the very true foundations for their own stupid ego driven crap trap ! They thought it was in Themsleves ? when it clearly was not in fact ! Such is deviod of the Holy Spirit in fact !

 

[Randy Kluth]

Did you know that the State that only fools Named and called Israel is Not Israel yet ! As the Top Religious Jews do point out as a fact, but they hope that it will become Israel truly ! that's worthy of Gods Israel !

I'm sorry, but you're just using a religious definition of the name "Israel." In any dictionary or encyclopedia, or in the Bible itself, "Israel" refers to the nation that God called and placed in the land of Canaan. It doesn't matter who was faithful and who was not--all of those living in the land of Israel who were descended from the 12 tribes were "Israel."

Beyond that, unfaithful Israelis were to be cut off from their people. They didn't stop being Hebrews or "Israel," but they were cut off form the community, and thus were divorced from the nation.

Today Israel does not know their Messiah Jesus. But they are not being cut off because they were already dismissed in exile after 70 AD. They were "Israel in exile," waiting to be restored.

A remnant found Jesus as their Messiah, but the majority did not see Jesus as anything more than a religious figure whose followers persecuted them. They stubbornly resisted true testimonies that Jesus was their Messiah. And those who might have answered the call were discouraged from doing so by their own angry Jewish brethren.

But in God's time Israel will be restored to be God's people, this time among many other peoples. God promised Abraham many nations who would be called and chosen. Israel will be merely the last in a long string of them. Of course, minorities in non-Christian nations can be saved too, although like with Israel it is more difficult when you're pressured by your fellow citizens.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I'm sorry, but you're just using a religious definition of the name "Israel." In any dictionary or encyclopedia, or in the Bible itself, "Israel" refers to the nation that God called and placed in the land of Canaan. It doesn't matter who was faithful and who was not--all of those living in the land of Israel who were descended from the 12 tribes were "Israel."

Beyond that, unfaithful Israelis were to be cut off from their people. They didn't stop being Hebrews or "Israel," but they were cut off form the community, and thus were divorced from the nation.

Today Israel does not know their Messiah Jesus. But they are not being cut off because they were already dismissed in exile after 70 AD. They were "Israel in exile," waiting to be restored.

A remnant found Jesus as their Messiah, but the majority did not see Jesus as anything more than a religious figure whose followers persecuted them. They stubbornly resisted true testimonies that Jesus was their Messiah. And those who might have answered the call were discouraged from doing so by their own angry Jewish brethren.

But in God's time Israel will be restored to be God's people, this time among many other peoples. God promised Abraham many nations who would be called and chosen. Israel will be merely the last in a long string of them. Of course, minorities in non-Christian nations can be saved too, although like with Israel it is more difficult when you're pressured by your fellow citizens.

I thought that one who was Israel, was the servant of God ! and the rest only Carnal or only Religious dupes !

Remember who it was that were running the Show in the Vineyard and had no regards God, as God sent his Prophets to deal with such a Cursed Mob and that Mob killed every one of them ! and then they had their way with Jesus !

No, all people who have lack of regard for the God of Israel are a Curse ! and an abomination. so such as they are not worthy ! as Jesus pointed out, That he never knew them !

Tho such as They did for some other gods. you name it ! so They are not worthy of Israel = servants of God at all !
Tho they say they are Jews etc, does not cut the mustard in fact and never did.

Who Vomited them out of the Land ? for good reason in fact !

Now who brought them back ? It was not God that's for sure ! for such are not repentive nor worthy of the OT ?

 

[Davy]

I'm sorry, but you're just using a religious definition of the name "Israel." In any dictionary or encyclopedia, or in the Bible itself, "Israel" refers to the nation that God called and placed in the land of Canaan. It doesn't matter who was faithful and who was not--all of those living in the land of Israel who were descended from the 12 tribes were "Israel."

Beyond that, unfaithful Israelis were to be cut off from their people. They didn't stop being Hebrews or "Israel," but they were cut off form the community, and thus were divorced from the nation.

Today Israel does not know their Messiah Jesus. But they are not being cut off because they were already dismissed in exile after 70 AD. They were "Israel in exile," waiting to be restored.

A remnant found Jesus as their Messiah, but the majority did not see Jesus as anything more than a religious figure whose followers persecuted them. They stubbornly resisted true testimonies that Jesus was their Messiah. And those who might have answered the call were discouraged from doing so by their own angry Jewish brethren.

But in God's time Israel will be restored to be God's people, this time among many other peoples. God promised Abraham many nations who would be called and chosen. Israel will be merely the last in a long string of them. Of course, minorities in non-Christian nations can be saved too, although like with Israel it is more difficult when you're pressured by your fellow citizens.

That above actually shows you have not studied all of your Bible, that you instead 'insert' of lot of men's theories into your understanding instead.

The new name "Israel" which God gave to Jacob was in connection with God's Birthright that continued to Jacob. The Birthright was given first through Abraham, then through Isaac, and then to Jacob with it representing the PROMISE BY FAITH which Abraham believed, i.e, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which God then counted Abraham's FAITH as RIGHTEOUSNESS. Apostle Paul specifically revealed this about Abraham in Galatians 3. Paul even said that those of FAITH have become the children of Abraham, because of the first FAITH by Abraham on the Promise by Faith which is about The Gospel.

Now orthodox Jews of course HATE this idea about Abraham's FAITH being the SAME Faith on Jesus Christ that we Christians have believed, but that is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3. The Promise by Faith of The Gospel was always FIRST, per God's written Word. This is why Lord Jesus said in John 8:56-58 that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and was glad. And per Jude 14-15 we are even shown that Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, prophesied of Christ's still future 2nd coming with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment upon the wicked. So don't try and tell me the Old Testament Patriarchs didn't know about Jesus and The Gospel. David in Psalms 22 and Isaiah in Isaiah 53 both were given to prophesy about Christ's crucifixion.

This is why Apostle Paul in Romans 9 revealed that God's TRUE Israel are those of FAITH. Just being born of the seed of the old historical nation of Israel is NOT ENOUGH. All... souls MUST ACCEPT JESUS OF NAZARETH AS GOD'S PROMISED SAVIOR to be saved.

God included Old Testament prophesy about the eventual manifesting of the Christian Church under the New Covenant. It especially involved the ten lost tribes of Israel that He scattered mainly to the West who would fulfill the "multitude of nations" Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim. In Gen.35 God had previously told Jacob that He would make of Jacob's seed "a nation, and a company of nations." That means ISRAELITE nations. That was fulfilled in Ephraim and the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" by their accepting The Gospel of Jesus Christ in new lands. This prophecy has pieces of it also proclaimed first in the Book of Hosea which Apostle Paul even quoted from to believing Gentiles in Romans 9.

Even false Jews try to deny all this and twist what Jesus said. Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel". That "house of Israel" label after 1 Kings 11 became a label ONLY about the separated ten northern tribes of old Israel. The Jews represented ONLY the Israelites of the southern kingdom called the "house of Judah". The majority of Jews rejected The Gospel, and thus the scattered ten tribe "house of Israel" in new lands would accept... The Gospel, and form the western Christian nations of history, fulfilling the "multitude of nations" Gen.48 prophecy to Ephraim.

 

[brightfame52]

When Paul wrote Rom 11:25-27

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins

The All Israel that shall be saved is not the physical nation of Israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, comprised of Abrahams Spiritual seed of promise, consisting of jews and gentiles. So in this manner, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, Sheep together with the jew elect sheep, all Israel shall be saved, the Body of Christ !

 

[Randy Kluth]

That above actually shows you have not studied all of your Bible, that you instead 'insert' of lot of men's theories into your understanding instead.

The new name "Israel" which God gave to Jacob was in connection with God's Birthright that continued to Jacob. The Birthright was given first through Abraham, then through Isaac, and then to Jacob with it representing the PROMISE BY FAITH which Abraham believed, i.e, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which God then counted Abraham's FAITH as RIGHTEOUSNESS. Apostle Paul specifically revealed this about Abraham in Galatians 3. Paul even said that those of FAITH have become the children of Abraham, because of the first FAITH by Abraham on the Promise by Faith which is about The Gospel.

Now orthodox Jews of course HATE this idea about Abraham's FAITH being the SAME Faith on Jesus Christ that we Christians have believed, but that is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3. The Promise by Faith of The Gospel was always FIRST, per God's written Word. This is why Lord Jesus said in John 8:56-58 that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and was glad. And per Jude 14-15 we are even shown that Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, prophesied of Christ's still future 2nd coming with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment upon the wicked. So don't try and tell me the Old Testament Patriarchs didn't know about Jesus and The Gospel. David in Psalms 22 and Isaiah in Isaiah 53 both were given to prophesy about Christ's crucifixion.

This is why Apostle Paul in Romans 9 revealed that God's TRUE Israel are those of FAITH. Just being born of the seed of the old historical nation of Israel is NOT ENOUGH. All... souls MUST ACCEPT JESUS OF NAZARETH AS GOD'S PROMISED SAVIOR to be saved.

God included Old Testament prophesy about the eventual manifesting of the Christian Church under the New Covenant. It especially involved the ten lost tribes of Israel that He scattered mainly to the West who would fulfill the "multitude of nations" Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim. In Gen.35 God had previously told Jacob that He would make of Jacob's seed "a nation, and a company of nations." That means ISRAELITE nations. That was fulfilled in Ephraim and the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" by their accepting The Gospel of Jesus Christ in new lands. This prophecy has pieces of it also proclaimed first in the Book of Hosea which Apostle Paul even quoted from to believing Gentiles in Romans 9.

Even false Jews try to deny all this and twist what Jesus said. Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel". That "house of Israel" label after 1 Kings 11 became a label ONLY about the separated ten northern tribes of old Israel. The Jews represented ONLY the Israelites of the southern kingdom called the "house of Judah". The majority of Jews rejected The Gospel, and thus the scattered ten tribe "house of Israel" in new lands would accept... The Gospel, and form the western Christian nations of history, fulfilling the "multitude of nations" Gen.48 prophecy to Ephraim.

It's true that Israel was called to be in a sense a variety of "nations" in themselves, whether tribes or cousin nations. But in the NT Scriptures Paul identified the prophecy of "many nations" as applying to the Gentile nations that convert to Christianity.

As I said, I use the standard Dictionary definition of 'Israel," referring to the nation founded in the land of Canaan. All of the talk about "true Israel" has to do with those who prevail in their faith and succeed in avoiding being "cut off" as "unfaithful Israel."

And yet, even "unfaithful Israel" or "untrue Israel" is still "Israel." They've just been temporarily cut off until by purging and correction they can be brought back to the faith they were called to as a nation. I've studied these questions for many years and I'm not less informed than you are on these issues.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I thought that one who was Israel, was the servant of God ! and the rest only Carnal or only Religious dupes !

Remember who it was that were running the Show in the Vineyard and had no regards God, as God sent his Prophets to deal with such a Cursed Mob and that Mob killed every one of them ! and then they had their way with Jesus !

No, all people who have lack of regard for the God of Israel are a Curse ! and an abomination. so such as they are not worthy ! as Jesus pointed out, That he never knew them !

Tho such as They did for some other gods. you name it ! so They are not worthy of Israel = servants of God at all !
Tho they say they are Jews etc, does not cut the mustard in fact and never did.

Who Vomited them out of the Land ? for good reason in fact !

Now who brought them back ? It was not God that's for sure ! for such are not repentive nor worthy of the OT ?

I think people can get totally lost in their minds. And God is merciful, wanting to bring some of them back.

It's true that some are beyond repair. But some can be brought back to repentance with care and compassion, with longsuffering and constant attention to their needs.

Israel is a great example of God's merciful nature. He never forgets His people. He won't forget us either, even if we wander astray for awhile. That's God's nature, to prevail upon us to repent until we return to Him. God knows who can repent and those who won't ever repent.

 

[Davy]

It's true that Israel was called to be in a sense a variety of "nations" in themselves, whether tribes or cousin nations. But in the NT Scriptures Paul identified the prophecy of "many nations" as applying to the Gentile nations that convert to Christianity.

Nah... that's just a doctrine from men that you've been taught. What Paul declared, like in Romans 9 with quoting from the Book of Hosea to Roman Gentile believers, was how the believing Gentiles is INCLUDED as part of God's Israel. And the reason why Paul taught that from Hosea is simple IF... one has read and studied their Old Testament history and that Book of Hosea...

It is because the Book of Hosea was God speaking mainly to the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel" before He destroyed it and scattered those ten tribes. God even covered there what He would cause to happen to those ten tribes in their scattering, and how He eventually would give them a New Covenant in new lands, and they would no more be 'Lo-ami' (not My people), and the believing Gentiles would be joined with them. That's about the "multitude of nations" prophecy to Ephraim, the HEAD tribe among the ten lost tribes. It happened in the Christian West historically, and you don't have a clue about it. But you are not alone, most of my Christian brethren don't study their Old Testament history nor enough of world history to be able to understand the fulfillment of that prophecy about the Church in the West.

 

[brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, are those whom God foreknew, His People. Rom 11:1-2a

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people[Israel] which he foreknew.

The casting away of the nation of israel was not God casting away His People Israel the Church, the Body of Christ, the remnant according to the election of grace. Remember Paul had just wrote in Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[foreknew], which are of Israel[national:

Those whom He foreknew in Christ to be conformed to His Image, is the Israel the Body of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This verse Identifies Israel, no not the ethnic nation, but the people of God Israel, the Children of God Israel

 

[brightfame52]

The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, has always been those individuals God foreknew in the purpose of Christ Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The same people Paul speaks of here as referring to the Church the Body of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And these are the ones it is promised Jesus shall save from their sins , His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 2

 

[marks]

Are they still a Christian if they renounce their belief in Christ?

What Christian renounces their belief? I don't think that happens. I've never seen it. Only that a great many realize they don't actually believe, and stop pretending.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It was God's will that Israel again came into existence. Nothing happens in this world without God's approval. Clearly, Jews and Israel remain an important and special part of God's plan.

Seeing this was why I initially became Christian. I realized the Bible prophecies were like no others!

Much love!

 

[marks]

No they dont, once Christ was born and completed His earthly Ministry, and died on the cross, no more need for the nation of Israel, she served her purpose, only Spiritual Israel remains, which was always the remnant in the nation Rom 9:6 but now the gentile remnant is united to the spiritual remnant, and thats how all Israel is saved.

That is directly contrary to the Scriptures.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 LITV
35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
37) So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.

Did the sun rise this morning? I saw it. I saw the moon last night. Therefore . . .

Much love!

 

[brightfame52]

That is directly contrary to the Scriptures.

No it's not

 

[brightfame52]

Jeremiah 31:35-37 LITV
35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
37) So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.

This applied to the Spiritual Nation the remnant which The Gentiles Spiritual remnant has been grafted in and it is one Spiritual Nation 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[Muna]

The Church, the Body of Christ Israel, has always been those individuals God foreknew in the purpose of Christ Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The same people Paul speaks of here as referring to the Church the Body of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And these are the ones it is promised Jesus shall save from their sins , His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. 2

Take that in light of what John says,

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world

Romans 15:2 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

 

[marks]

This applied to the Spiritual Nation the remnant which The Gentiles Spiritual remnant has been grafted in and it is one Spiritual Nation 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

It applies to the people to whom it was given.

Much love!

 

[brightfame52]

It applies to the people to whom it was given.

Much love!

The Church

 

[marks]

The Church

Israel. The descendant of Jacob.

Much love!