Behold
Well-Known Member
Whats the matter with you.?
Im not discussing what i think is evil with you......im pointing ou, that i didnt say that movies are evil.
You said i said this....
Read more carefully.
"True" Israel?
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
- Start date
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Whats the matter with you.?
Im not discussing what i think is evil with you......im pointing ou, that i didnt say that movies are evil.
You said i said this....
Read more carefully.
I did not say that you said movies are evil. I said I do not want to discuss what things you think are evil for Christians, including movies.
You need to read more carefully--not me, and not read things into my words that aren't there. But this is your mode of operation--to find something to disagree with. Stop looking for evil. If you do, your eyes may be the problem.
This is what I said:
I don't have Netflix anymore--someone had gifted it to me. A lot of it is trash. But I wouldn't say that watching movies is evil. That's judgmental in my opinion, and I'm not going to go down the list of things you think is evil for a Christian to do, whether dancing, smoking, drinking, card games, attending sports games, casinos, gambling, travel, entertainment, or mixing with non-Christians, etc. I'll leave that for another thread.
I said I would not personally say that movies are evil, even if I agree with you that Netflix is evil. It would be judgmental to say that all movies are evil, even if Netflix is itself evil.
So I said this thread would not become, for me, a discussion of what you think is evil beyond Netflix. I did not say what you think is evil for Christians to do beyond watching Netflix. I was just pointing out that even if I agree with you that Netflix is evil, it would not mean *for me* that movies are all evil, including some of the movies on Netflix.
You've turned this into yet another argument, which is what you always do. That is the very reason I said I didn't want to get pulled into a discussion of all the things you think is bad for Christians to do. And yet, here you are once again...
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Ive not tried to have a conversation with you, regarding what i think is "evil" for a Christian.
You are confused.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
You misunderstood.
I didnt say that you were on the Netflix Binge., I said that people who were doing that, are backslidden Christians.
Read more carefully, next time.
It is *you* who need to read more carefully. I didn't say what you believe about movies. But you endlessly go on about how I said you think movies are evil. I didn't say that. I didn't want to discuss that. But you go on and on seeming to want to dredge up some argument that doesn't exist, and then claim "I need to read more carefully."
I'm happy to discuss any subject with anybody. I just refuse to get bogged down into discussing "what I mean" over and over again. If you can't be diplomatic in your posts, you should not visit forums at all. You contribute nothing if you do not have Christian love.
I might just add this. Christian 101 requries that we learn to die to ourselves as we serve God with His Word. That means we must learn to be misunderstood sometimes and not react to everything that seems to attack us. We need to "make place for God's wrath" in case we may be misunderstanding someone, which is quite easy to do in this format.
Learn to die to yourself in order to let God's love be more prominent in your life. Defending yourself sometimes draws you away from God's love, and kills otherwise meaningful conversations. Our testimony is not to how perfect we try to be, but to God's love, which sometimes comes through our silence, not always requiring we defend ourselves.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Its this, actually. @Randy Kluth
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New Living Translation
For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.
English Standard Version
For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
Berean Standard Bible
Because they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
Berean Literal Bible
For being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish the own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God.
King James Bible
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Amplified Bible
For not knowing about God’s righteousness [which is based on faith], and seeking to establish their own [righteousness based on works], they did not submit to God’s righteousness.
Behold
Well-Known Member
No.
The Body of Christ is the NT Church.......mostly Gentiles.
Israel, is currently moving back to Isreal, from all over the world for the last 80yrs, as the Bible prophecied.
They are currently surrounded by Islamic "crazies"........and just as soon as the 'time of the Gentiles" ends.....God is going to resume His dealing with the JEW (Trib).
Keep your eye on Israel, as its the "center" of it all., and always will be.
Yes, the Body of Christ is composed of all saints from the beginning of the world until the consummation of this world.
I agree with that and with Scriptures generally. The problem begins when we begin to focus on one Scripture and neglect another Scripture that possibly maintains a balance between two passages that otherwise seem to contradict each other.
We also read this:
Rom 11.1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!... 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened... 1 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!...
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
What does all this mean? Does it mean that the few Jews who get saved is the fulfillment of national Israel's Salvation? No, it means that God will somehow remove the ungodly in Israel and use the standard of the Christian remnant to rebuild the nation. This will be a political salvation that produces the Christian Israel God has always envisioned.
If all we do is focus on Israel's current failures in the current age we will be like the Antisemites who wish to tar all Jews with the death of Christ, judging all Jews as resistant to the Gospel when many of them have not even clearly heard the Gospel yet!
Matt 10.23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Jesus actively sought to reach the Jewish People even as many Jews persecuted Jewish believers. Jesus warned that not all of them will be reached in a convenient time.
If that was true in Jesus' itinerant, earthly ministry, it is also true today. Even though the Church has been around 2000 years there are still many Jews who have not been reached with a clear Gospel message from responsible Christian ministers. We need to refrain from joining the Islamic world in attacking the Jewish People. This is Jew-hatred.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Paul teaches that ...
"And so all Israel shall be saved,"
And that is not during the "Time of the Gentiles'., and its not every single Jew.
The word "SAVED" implies Salvation..
Now in the Trib, when God resumes His dealing with the Jew during the Trib, there is an "enduring to the end" situation, that is not found in the "'time of the Gentiles",.. when "" Salvation is only by """"Grace through Faith, without works"
You dont have to be concerned regarding me "refraining" from Jewish Hatred, as my home is in Israel.
I agree--Israel's national salvation takes place at Christ's Coming, after the Time of the Gentiles. And it certainly would not be every single Jew that gets saved!
This is where we may differ a bit. I distinguish between *political salvation* and *individual salvation.* Both are spiritual events, but one alone results in an individual obtaining Eternal Life.,
Under the Law God appeared to be pursuing a nation whose society lived by God's Law, resulting in a community in which God resided and blessed the people with health, prosperity, and deliverance from external enemies. It wouldn't, of course, be a paradise like Eden but it would show how nations benefit from agreeing, largely, to live by the one true God.
When nations abroad came in to invade and attack, God delivered them in what I'm calling "political salvation." They were delivered from their enemies.
When Paul speaks of the triumph of Israel, the nation, after Christ's return, he is speaking of their full national salvation, meaning that this would not just be a small part of a nation, or just a few individuals who are spiritually saved or delivered from their enemies. No, God promised Abraham a full nation that would be based on his faith and religion who would be delivered and preserved for all time.
And so, a full nation would experience "political salvation," a complete deliverance from their enemies, who threaten their very existence. And since Israel has been under judgment and under attack for many centuries--the worst national punishment in Israel's history, this "political salvation" is the eschatological hope that Israel has enjoyed for millennia--a final deliverance with no more chance of national punishment or exile.
So, I believe Paul talks about individual salvation, but also talks about the political salvation of nations who in the Millennium will choose, as societies, to live by the laws of Christian truth--not just Israel but also nations that have like Israel pledged a covenant relationship with God through Christ. It will not just be an external devotion to God's moral law, but much more, a common spiritual experience, generally, of the community, even though not every individual will be spiritually saved.
I have a different view of this. I do agree there is some kind of turning back to the Jews in these last of the last days. But I don't think Grace is any different as the operation that has saved a remnant of Israel since the beginning of the Gospel until now. And I don't think it will be any different during the Reign of Antichrist either--I don't call it the "Tribulation Period," since I define the "Great Tribulation" as the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era as a whole.
How interesting! How did you end up being there? I, for some reason, thought you lived in the San Francisco area??
I attempted to move onto a Kibbutz when I was there, but was turned down for what at the time were health reasons. So, I only stayed in the vicinity of Jerusalem for about 2 weeks. Still have fond memories, and almost taste the Middle East bread! I stayed at an Arab Youth Hostel just off the Damascus Gate, which served up really great stew every day!
Take care. Things obviously are dangerous there now.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
In the OT you find that God was angry with Israel a lot, because they were always dealing with a bad King, most of the time.
They "Playted the Harlot" a lot.
And once the Law entered, it was nothing but animal sacrifices and yearly sacrifices.
They didnt keep the law, they were in fact, a very stubborn and sinful people.
Even when they received the Law, it cost them 3000 lives that very day.
Occasionaly they had a good King who would turn them around, but then a bad one would revert/subvert them again.
God never wanted them to have an earthly King....but they wanted it, so God allowed it.
At times they were delievered, until they were no longer delivered.
They've had no home for a very long time, until they returned to Israel 80ish yrs ago.
Before they, they were hounded, chased, and destroyed, by many nations who would not allow them to stay or have any peace.
Its an interesting fact of History that every nation that mistreated the Jews, is no longer a "Super-Power".
England, Spain, France, Germany ... to name a few.
Hopefully, this recent situaiton in the USA, whereby Trump has been a friend to Israel, will continue.
All Jews being saved, will never happen.
It wont happen in "the time of the Gentiles" and it wont happen in the Trib.
When 2 Thess 1:8-9 happens, then Israel, what's left of it, will be saved.
Generally true. I happen to think that Faith socieities, as weak as they may be, sometimes live right and follow the right paths. But yes, if we look back on the history of ancient Israel overall, it isn't a pretty picture. Particularly, in the book of Judges, we see this wishy washy religious attitude among the Hebrews. The battle to become consistently monotheistic seems to have been a perennial problem, up until the captivities.
Following the captivities, I think there was a more consistent monotheism. But this only resulted in a dominant form of religiosity, an external legalism that emphasized religious forms over spiritual substance.
I agree.
Yes, of course not every individual Jew will be spiritually saved, or receive Eternal Life. So, I'm just talking about the political salvation of a *whole nation,* as opposed to just half a nation getting politically saved from her adversaries.
As I've been saying, there is a difference between "political salvation" and the "spiritual salvation" of the individual. Both are "spiritual," but they mean different things.
Under the Law of Moses, the *nation* was promised "political salvation," or deliverance from their enemies. This did not refer to the "spiritual salvation" of the individual, which did not come into full view until Jesus and the Cross.
In Rom 11, Paul is speaking primarily of "political salvation" for the nation, indicating the Jewish Hope that one day their days of punishment by God will come to an end, and the nation will more fully conform to God's image in Christ. This is not laying aside "spiritual salvation" of the individual, but only focusing on God's promise concerning the *nation.*
Obviously, God is concerned about the individual on an Eternal basis. But He is also concerned with His image being properly represented in humanity, in nations who have just laws and enjoy a spiritual communion socially. So, we must emphasize both the need for social revival, as well as getting Born Again as individuals. Both elements are critically important.
Thanks.
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The True Israel are all those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Has the Church Replaced Israel ?
Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.
Lk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.
Lk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
There seems to be a patern here, starting where you do
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered
thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Jesus said also
Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
After they killed Jesus, he sends out his own
And here comes Stephen coming in the name of the Lord calling them betrayers and murderers (not flattering them as some do today)
Saying,
Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers
And after speaking the truth as a testimony against them
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen...
There is obviously no "blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" in this picture
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.
And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord
Jesus did tell his disciples
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me,
they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
And also, they do these thing because they dont even know him or the Father
John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
As so Saul/ now Paul says,
Acts 26
[9] I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
[10] Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
[11] And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
[12] Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
Because he did not know Jesus or the Father, "Who art thou, Lord"?
[13] At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
[14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
And so again,
John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
Many that are first (as the Jews were) would also be last (to know) and so in Paul I believe is that pattern of "due time"
1 Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also,
as of one born out of due time.
Which I believe is the picture of these which initially persecuted the church, coming around as shown in Paul, where he could say, that,
"In me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering"
1 Tim 1:13
[13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[14] And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Peter touches on "the longsuffering of our Lord" writing
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you
And Jesus does seem to be showing a pattern in him that way, many of the first he come being the last to know, but eventually get the memo (the remnant of them got)
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Romans 11:30-31 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
I think there is a place for calling the International Church, the Body of Christ, "Spiritual Israel." But since this can get confusing I think it's best to refer to "Israel" as it is in the literal sense, as the natural descendants of Abraham who have formed into a nation.
Paul's argument that "true Israel" consists of genuine believers is not an effort to confuse this. He is simply arguing that those who do not live properly as Israel was supposed to be under the covenant of God have proven themselves to be illegetimate in terms of "faith." If individuals were unfaithful in the Wilderness God cut them off--they were illegitimate representatives of who His peole were supposed to be under the Law.
So those who were unfaithful in Israel did not stop being 'Israel," nor did they change race or nation. Rather, they just proved to not live properly under terms of the covenant. And that covenant was designed to prove who God both called and chose to be His people.
The OT possition on Israel, is that of Jacob ! not the People in fact ! for Jacob was not Israel untill The Angle said he was so !
Out of all of Jacobs sons only 2 were of his own true sons, that he truly wanted in fact and the elder one of this true Wife was Jacobs one that he loved the most in fact and the rest hated this, so and tryed to kill him ! but sold him in the end ! then the younger Son of his true wife was his best son. the rest of the sons were not truly worthy of God in fact.
Jacob was tricked into the first wife and the other two women were not his wife's !
So we have a People of God with the start of Abraham ! but they are not all Israel in fact, because only Jacob became Israel ! but then Jacob had children, but when did Jacob become Israel ? Jacob did not become Israel untill when ? he was not Israel with the first children was he ?
Look at how great Israels first real Son was to become ! He was blessed by God ? way above all of the rest in fact !
And Israels 2ed Son to his real wife was greater than the rest of the other brothers !
Then we see the 2 real Sons and their Sons what goes on in regards them, is greater than the rest of all !
So this nonsense about all Jews being equal is rubbish ! No one ever made it to be an Israel in the Bible but for Jacob and Nathaniel in fact !
The rest are only the Tribe of Israel ? get that ? not truly worthy of the God of Israel in fact ! for they failed as well, when they turned from God every time in fact ! and were great when they were abiding with the God of Israel !
Then we seen the fall of the Tribes ! and then we seen the bastards who where in control of the Jews ? were clearly devoid of the God of Israel, but for a few ! who were worthy of Holy Moses and it was them who became the first Christians in fact ! because they were worthy of Israel in fact ! but the rest were clearly not worthy of Israel at all and they were vomited out of the Land !
So the only people from Christ Jesus on are truly born again Christians in fact, for they are Saved ! and they abide in Christ Jesus because thery are His People !
For they abide in him and he in them in fact ! outside of such a unity is worthless for they are an abomination to God !
Anyone who makes a claim on that they are worthy by blood line is a Carnal or only a religious dupe ! like a dog chasing it's tail. thinking their is something their. it's just it's self ? thinking it's them who does the work ? but it's God who does the work in you, if you abide ?
Jews who claim nowadays to be Gods Jews People are what percentage of such a blood line if any in fact ? seriously when one does the maths down to nowadays one would be flat out being 10% say, if that.
Take an Australian Aboriginal say, one abo and one Pom make a child back in the 1770 say, now who is that child truly ? such is not an Aboriginal child in fact ! it's 50/50 ! then that child has a child with another Pom and so on !
But from about 1990 on the Socialist Government tempted the public with Lies, making out that such people were Aboriginals ?
Just like the people who lie about people being Gods people as Jews ? When Jesus said not all who claim to be are !
So when I talk to my old mates who are 100% blood line Australian Aboriginals.
What do they say ? well they have always said they are the Aboriginals and the rest are clearly not Aboriginals ! but but but ! the majority of Australians clearly could not give a rats about the true Aboriginals at all in fact ! for such ignorant fools will believe that I am an Aboriginal, if I just said I am !
That's clearly how delusional that they are !
For they are only to happy to believe a Lie !
For their is no Truth in them !
Such as They will go along with what ever is the trend of the day, to look like fitting in, with what they call Pride ? Pride in being a Fool ! for if one calles such a people out on such, what do the morons do ?
It's just like the ones who did the same to Jesus back in the day !
The same Godless morons who have no Virtue but are just a Mob in fact !
Not to mention nowadays they pride themselves on being a Mob ! haha how pathetic !
In the Bible You understand what a Mob truly is ! don't you ?
