Theological Examination of the Rapture in Relation to the Great Tribulation

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Taken

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Perhaps Matt 24:19-31 tells us when the Saints will meet Christ in the air when Christ sends Angels out with trumpets to begin gathering the elect to Himself.

My understanding is that it will occur after Satan is captured and also thrown into the lake of Fire.

Isaiah also in Isaiah 25:21-23 also tells us the same story.

The Lord “gathering” His …
Is precisely The Lord calling, gathering, They Whom the Lamb of God, Prepared, by, through, of: Gods Baptism
AND
by, through, of Gods: SEED and POWER (who is Christ)…

The Calling…IS a THREE-Fold SOUND…expressly For ONLY they Converted TO Hear..and they participating and Approving the Calling…

1Thes 4:
[16a] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

The Lord…SHOUT
The Angel Servants’…VOICE
Gods Approved Signal Authority…TRUMP

The “Significance” IS The Parallel to An Ancient, Historical, Traditional Jewish Wedding…

The Arrangement…with brides father and Groom.

The bride, in her fathers house, preparing for becoming a wife.

The groom, preparing to care, provide for his bride, as a husband should.

The grooms servant arrives at the brides fathers house, to signal her, her Groom is prepared to wed.

The bride leaves her fathers house…

The bride is prepared, veiled in her wedding attire and escorted to the grooms Fathers house…

The groom, the bride, become Adjoined, IN the Fathers House, by, through, of the Agreement, Power and Authority of the Father of the groom…Once and Forever.

The grooms’ (Jesus’) Fathers House and His Kingdom is VAST…
From the Clouds above the Earth, To the Heaven Above the Heavens…

Many Witnesses / Guests are presently Waiting for the Bride to Arrive and the Wedding to proceed.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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LoveYeshua

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Tribulation of believers, Jesus already discipled His chosen 12 then, that after His departure they and the church will face.

But the Great Tribulation is a prophetic tribulation that will take place towards the end of days, before the 'first resurrection' of church saints.

These calamities are included in the three and half years Great Tribulation, because after that is the thousand years of peace.


No, they are both believers, but one is prepared and ready, while the other not and left behind.

The parable of the ten 'virgins' says it all, for those who rejected Him are not virgins anymore but defiled.
the OP is all about the last days great trubulation it is in the title of the op.
Exactly the one who rejected jesus knew who he is and at one point stopped following him, true believers would not do so. True faith is not only believing in Him but also following His words.
 

LoveYeshua

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Perhaps Matt 24:19-31 tells us when the Saints will meet Christ in the air when Christ sends Angels out with trumpets to begin gathering the elect to Himself.

My understanding is that it will occur after Satan is captured and also thrown into the lake of Fire.

Isaiah also in Isaiah 25:21-23 also tells us the same story.
Isaiah 25:21-23??
 

LoveYeshua

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Postrib rapture doctrine, originated by men (which postrib rapture adherents celebrate and is taught by postrib rapture teachers), STARTS ITS THEORY on a ASSUMPTION.

In that assumption is man's reasoning.
Which is ..."there is only one coming"

IOW, Casting aside the several comings IN THE BIBLE, and clinging to " I don't care about your many pretrib rapture verses, or the more than one coming, or the Jewish gathering of rev 14, or Jesus prophecies, ...it just can not be more than one coming."

At this late hour....rejecting and changing the bible is ludicrous
The teaching of Jesus shows that His return will happen after the tribulation, when He gathers His faithful and judges the wicked. In Matthew 24:37–41, Jesus compared His coming to the days of Noah: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.” The ones “taken” are those removed in judgment, like the people swept away by the flood, and the ones “left” are those who remain to inherit God’s kingdom. Luke 17:37 confirms this understanding, showing that the taken are gathered to destruction, not to be saved. Jesus places the gathering of the faithful after the tribulation: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds” (Matthew 24:29–31).

The parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1–13) follows this teaching. The bridegroom comes at midnight, a time of testing, and only those ready enter the wedding. The virgins represent believers called to purity and faithfulness, the lamps represent the light of faith, and the oil represents the Holy Spirit and spiritual readiness. Jesus warns that faith must be lived and kept alive through obedience; outward appearance alone is not enough. The closed door shows the end of the time of mercy: only those who remain faithful until His visible return will enter the kingdom. Luke 21:36 and Matthew 24:13 reinforce that true escape is through enduring faithfully and standing before the Son of Man.

The 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 fit this same pattern. They are God’s faithful servants sealed and protected through tribulation: “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads” (Revelation 7:3–4). Standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion, they are described as blameless and loyal (Revelation 14:1–5), showing that God preserves those who remain faithful. Following them, John sees a great multitude from all nations who have come out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14), demonstrating that salvation is not limited to a small number. The 144,000 are the firstfruits, and the great multitude represents the full harvest of faithful believers who endure until Christ returns.

Jesus spoke of escape in Luke 21:36 as spiritual preservation, not removal from earth. His teaching emphasizes one visible coming, not multiple secret arrivals: “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matthew 24:27), and “This same Jesus… will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). John 16:33 and Matthew 24:13 make clear that believers face tribulation but are called to endure with courage, because salvation comes through faithful perseverance.

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The “taken” in Matthew 24 are removed in judgment, not rescued; the faithful are gathered after tribulation. The 144,000 and the great multitude show God’s protection and final gathering of all who endure. Jesus’ words, the parables, and the visions in Revelation consistently teach one coming, one gathering, and salvation through faithful endurance, not an early removal or secret escape.
 

LoveYeshua

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You are so blatantly ridiculous I can hardly contain my laughter.

IF YOU were Scripturally Taught, you should have Learned, Believed, Trusted:
The Word of God IS the Supreme Teacher…
The Spirit of man Learns Gods Truth From God…
AND…
ONLY the mans Spirit and God Knows the mans Belief.

1 Cor 2:
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

It’s is God, WHO forms the spirit of man, within a man…
(zech 12:1)
Appears it is you, speaking For YOU, who have CHOSEN to listen, hear, believe, trust Corrupt Teachers,
and Failed to verify their Teaching WITH Gods Word.

Even the most simple minded person could reason God Has NO Anger, Wrath, Tribulation Against A Converted man…
AND
A Converted man knows to Wager and Verify his Reasonable Beliefs Against Gods Scriptural Text to Have Confidence in his own Spiritual Belief, According to God.

It is Boldly astounding, YOU think YOU were “included” in the Conversation and Act, on the Day, The Lord God and I Agreed to Establish an Eternal Relationship.

Sounds as if you should Give it a whirl and Try Putting your Trust in Gods Word, rather than Trusting your chosen Teachers to tell you what to Believe and Trust.

:rolleyes:
taken, the words of Christ are very clear and should not be denied, either you believe what jesus said or you do not there is no middle ground;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
Mat 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

At that time, and only then, will the Son of man appear and all will see him coming in his glory. that time is immediately AFTER the tribulation. here we talk about the great tribulation as described in the previous verses of the verses ( Matthew 24:2-28 )

Jesus words are clear and require NO interpretation from anyone.
 
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amigo de christo

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taken, the words of Christ are very clear and should not be denied, either you believe what jesus said or you do not there is no middle ground;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
Mat 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

At that time, and only then, will the Son of man appear and all will see him coming in his glory. that time is immediately AFTER the tribulation. here we talk about the great tribulation as described in the previous verses of the verses ( Matthew 24:2-28 )

Jesus words are clear and require NO interpretation from anyone.
And when we read what Pual himself also warns the thessolonians in his second letter
first chapter we see A REAL clear solid proof its a one time event .
For it is the righteous judgment of GOD that we suffer tribulations for the Kingdom .
Seeing it is also a righteous thing with GOD to recompense tribulation to those who
persecuted you , WHEN , WHEN THE LORD shall come to be glorified in His saints
A one time event .
As even peter would say
HASTING unto the COMING DAY OF GOD
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved
and the elements melt with fiery heat .
NEVERTHELESS we look foward to the new heavens and new earth .
ONE DAY they all looked forward too . NOT two days , ONE DAY . THE SECOND COMING OF KING JESUS

The question that is also begging to be asked is
AND just when DOES GOD destroy a city , or a nation , a peoples .
WHEN the inquity hits the full .
And now a word , I have never seen such a sin loving christendom and world
that now no longer hides sins but celebrates them in the streets .
And i lie that is merging all tribes , all religoins by Christendom herself
And has OMITTED for the sake of what it beleives will bring PEACE n safety to a unified world , JESUS THE CHRIST .
THIS merger , the way to merge them all as one .
OH THEY ALREADY have spoken the lie of anti christ . As they made void to all them false religoins
the the dire need to repent and beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
NO THEY SOLD THEM A LIE that said , WE ALL SERVING the same GOD differently .
Now let us all have one purse , let us all come and be as one and find common ground
and we can and shall attain PEACE N SAFETY .
Does anyone remember the two words paul said they would be hollering
RIGHT BEFORE sudden destruction came upon them all . IF YA SAID PEACE N SAFETY , YOU WOULD BE right my friend .
WE are sailing as a missle RIGHT to the last hours of earth .
And their beloved peace of anti christ , WILL BE THEIR OWN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION on the DAY of the LORD .
REminds me of ahab . All his false prophets were hollering , GO YE UP and YE SHALL have the victory
As to day they all holler the same, LET US BE as one let us merge and we shall have PEACE N SAFETY .
But none takes it into account , That as with ahab soo to with these
THEY BEING LED TO THE DAY OF THEIR OWN DEMISE . oh its a delusion all right .
 
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LoveYeshua

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And when we read what Pual himself also warns the thessolonians in his second letter
first chapter we see A REAL clear solid proof its a one time event .
For it is the righteous judgment of GOD that we suffer tribulations for the Kingdom .
Seeing it is also a righteous thing with GOD to recompense tribulation to those who
persecuted you , WHEN , WHEN THE LORD shall come to be glorified in His saints
A one time event .
As even peter would say
HASTING unto the COMING DAY OF GOD
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved
and the elements melt with fiery heat .
NEVERTHELESS we look foward to the new heavens and new earth .
ONE DAY they all looked forward too . NOT two days , ONE DAY . THE SECOND COMING OF KING JESUS

The question that is also begging to be asked is
AND just when DOES GOD destroy a city , or a nation , a peoples .
WHEN the inquity hits the full .
And now a word , I have never seen such a sin loving christendom and world
that now no longer hides sins but celebrates them in the streets .
And i lie that is merging all tribes , all religoins by Christendom herself
And has OMITTED for the sake of what it beleives will bring PEACE n safety to a unified world , JESUS THE CHRIST .
THIS merger , the way to merge them all as one .
OH THEY ALREADY have spoken the lie of anti christ . As they made void to all them false religoins
the the dire need to repent and beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
NO THEY SOLD THEM A LIE that said , WE ALL SERVING the same GOD differently .
Now let us all have one purse , let us all come and be as one and find common ground
and we can and shall attain PEACE N SAFETY .
Does anyone remember the two words paul said they would be hollering
RIGHT BEFORE sudden destruction came upon them all . IF YA SAID PEACE N SAFETY , YOU WOULD BE right my friend .
WE are sailing as a missle RIGHT to the last hours of earth .
And their beloved peace of anti christ , WILL BE THEIR OWN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION on the DAY of the LORD .
REminds me of ahab . All his false prophets were hollering , GO YE UP and YE SHALL have the victory
As to day they all holler the same, LET US BE as one let us merge and we shall have PEACE N SAFETY .
But none takes it into account , That as with ahab soo to with these
THEY BEING LED TO THE DAY OF THEIR OWN DEMISE . oh its a delusion all right .
If everyone saw the same you see in Paul's words there would be no arguments. I have researched briefly where this pre-trib raptures theory comes from and from what I could find, it originated with Darby and made it's way until today, words of Men indeed.

""
The pre-tribulation rapture theory, which teaches that Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on earth, originated primarily in the early 19th century. It was first systematized and popularized by John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a leader in the Plymouth Brethren movement in Britain. Darby's ideas gained wider acceptance through the influential Scofield Reference Bible published in 1909, which helped spread this interpretation in American evangelical circles.


While some claim there are earlier hints or references to a rapture in historical Christian writings, the specific doctrine of a secret, pre-tribulation rapture cannot be clearly traced to biblical or early church sources. Instead, it appears as a distinct theological development during a period of intense prophetic interest and eschatological speculation in the 1800s. There is mention of Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish girl, who had a vision in 1830 that contributed to the spread of pre-tribulation ideas, but the core theological framework was developed and promoted by Darby.""

source perplexity AI
 
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JLB

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To where specifically does Christ return?
Christ will return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. (Zechariah 14:4)
When specifically does Christ return?
Christ will return at a time known only by the Father, like a thief in the night. (Matthew 24:36)
After the Great Tribulation?
The most explicit references indicate Christ’s return will occur after the Tribulation, when the signs in the heavens are fulfilled. (Matthew 24:29-31)

Agreed.

Except for ...
When specifically does Christ return?
Christ will return at a time known only by the Father, like a thief in the night. (Matthew 24:36)

Yes of course Christ will return as a thief in the night for the world; those who are not watching for the signs He gave us to watch for.


But for us, who are watching, He will not return as a thief in the night.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4
 
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LoveYeshua

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Agreed.

Except for ...
When specifically does Christ return?
Christ will return at a time known only by the Father, like a thief in the night. (Matthew 24:36)

Yes of course Christ will return as a thief in the night for the world; those who are not watching for the signs He gave us to watch for.


But for us, who are watching, He will not return as a thief in the night.

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4
from my observations, soon.....
 
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rebuilder 454

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The teaching of Jesus shows that His return will happen after the tribulation, when He gathers His faithful and judges the wicked. In Matthew 24:37–41, Jesus compared His coming to the days of Noah: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.” The ones “taken” are those removed in judgment, like the people swept away by the flood, and the ones “left” are those who remain to inherit God’s kingdom. Luke 17:37 confirms this understanding, showing that the taken are gathered to destruction, not to be saved. Jesus places the gathering of the faithful after the tribulation: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds” (Matthew 24:29–31).

The parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1–13) follows this teaching. The bridegroom comes at midnight, a time of testing, and only those ready enter the wedding. The virgins represent believers called to purity and faithfulness, the lamps represent the light of faith, and the oil represents the Holy Spirit and spiritual readiness. Jesus warns that faith must be lived and kept alive through obedience; outward appearance alone is not enough. The closed door shows the end of the time of mercy: only those who remain faithful until His visible return will enter the kingdom. Luke 21:36 and Matthew 24:13 reinforce that true escape is through enduring faithfully and standing before the Son of Man.

The 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 fit this same pattern. They are God’s faithful servants sealed and protected through tribulation: “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads” (Revelation 7:3–4). Standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion, they are described as blameless and loyal (Revelation 14:1–5), showing that God preserves those who remain faithful. Following them, John sees a great multitude from all nations who have come out of the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14), demonstrating that salvation is not limited to a small number. The 144,000 are the firstfruits, and the great multitude represents the full harvest of faithful believers who endure until Christ returns.

Jesus spoke of escape in Luke 21:36 as spiritual preservation, not removal from earth. His teaching emphasizes one visible coming, not multiple secret arrivals: “For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matthew 24:27), and “This same Jesus… will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). John 16:33 and Matthew 24:13 make clear that believers face tribulation but are called to endure with courage, because salvation comes through faithful perseverance.

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The “taken” in Matthew 24 are removed in judgment, not rescued; the faithful are gathered after tribulation. The 144,000 and the great multitude show God’s protection and final gathering of all who endure. Jesus’ words, the parables, and the visions in Revelation consistently teach one coming, one gathering, and salvation through faithful endurance, not an early removal or secret escape.
Again, through OMISSION, you present your doctrine.
I see this over and over.

You Omit that the gathering of the Jews in Rev 14 is a Jewish only gathering.
But even if you omit it, you still have a mid trib gathering BEFORE the second coming on white horses, AFTER the 7 yr trib.

QUOTE
""The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The “taken” in Matthew 24 are removed in judgment, not rescued; the faithful are gathered after tribulation""
Play it out.
Jesus said half are taken before the flood.
So, in your mind , you have a gathering of wicked BEGORE THE FLOOD, to some non existent judgement.

Show me the pretrib supposed judgement where the earth is 50% righteous , and 50% wicked.
Just plain impossible.
Way way off.

The "half taken" in mat 24 ,aligns PERFECTLY with Jesus teaching, almost in the same breath, ( only seven sentevces later),as the virgin parable! 2 witnesses of "half taken", practically side by side.
That makes a "2 witness truth" against what you are just assuming to fit a doctrine.

QUOTE
""""The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The “taken” in Matthew 24 are removed in judgment, not rescued; the faithful are gathered after tribulation""

You can look it up, the "taken" in the Greek, is to a good place.
Paralambano
1) to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation)
2. (by analogy) to assume an office
3. (figuratively) to learn

Look it up.
The deeper you go, the more ludicrous the postrib rapture gets.

QUOTE
""The 144,000 are the firstfruits, and the great multitude represents the full harvest of faithful believers who endure until Christ returns.""

SIGH....AGAIN OMSSION.
The 144k are ETHNIC JEWS.

FIRSTFRUITS ETHNIC JEWS.

It is tedious seeing theses omissions over and over.

Do you understand that OMISSION IS NOT YOUR FRIEND??????
OMISSION GUARANTEES ERROR!!!!!!

You are proving expertly postrib rapture doctrine is 100% debunk.
100% a doctrine of misunderstanding.

Almost every statement made by postribbers is a teachable moment.

The Bible CLEARLY shows 3 distinct comings.

1) The pretrib rapture by Jesus
2) The Jewish gathering mid trib in Rev 14
3) The second coming of rev 19.

Why don't you simply read what is there?
No additives.
No preconceived postriber teachers.
No changing and assuming of "those taken."
Eliminate the IMPOSSIBILITIES, CLEARLY misconstrued to protect a doctrine.
Just read the 3 comings and acknowledge the bible is true.
 

LoveYeshua

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Again, through OMISSION, you present your doctrine.
I see this over and over.

You Omit that the gathering of the Jews in Rev 14 is a Jewish only gathering.
But even if you omit it, you still have a mid trib gathering BEFORE the second coming on white horses, AFTER the 7 yr trib.

QUOTE
""The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The “taken” in Matthew 24 are removed in judgment, not rescued; the faithful are gathered after tribulation""
Play it out.
Jesus said half are taken before the flood.
So, in your mind , you have a gathering of wicked BEGORE THE FLOOD, to some non existent judgement.

Show me the pretrib supposed judgement where the earth is 50% righteous , and 50% wicked.
Just plain impossible.
Way way off.

The "half taken" in mat 24 ,aligns PERFECTLY with Jesus teaching, almost in the same breath, ( only seven sentevces later),as the virgin parable! 2 witnesses of "half taken", practically side by side.
That makes a "2 witness truth" against what you are just assuming to fit a doctrine.

QUOTE
""""The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. The “taken” in Matthew 24 are removed in judgment, not rescued; the faithful are gathered after tribulation""

You can look it up, the "taken" in the Greek, is to a good place.
Paralambano
1) to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation)
2. (by analogy) to assume an office
3. (figuratively) to learn

Look it up.
The deeper you go, the more ludicrous the postrib rapture gets.

QUOTE
""The 144,000 are the firstfruits, and the great multitude represents the full harvest of faithful believers who endure until Christ returns.""

SIGH....AGAIN OMSSION.
The 144k are ETHNIC JEWS.

FIRSTFRUITS ETHNIC JEWS.

It is tedious seeing theses omissions over and over.

Do you understand that OMISSION IS NOT YOUR FRIEND??????
OMISSION GUARANTEES ERROR!!!!!!

You are proving expertly postrib rapture doctrine is 100% debunk.
100% a doctrine of misunderstanding.

Almost every statement made by postribbers is a teachable moment.

The Bible CLEARLY shows 3 distinct comings.

1) The pretrib rapture by Jesus
2) The Jewish gathering mid trib in Rev 14
3) The second coming of rev 19.

Why don't you simply read what is there?
No additives.
No preconceived postriber teachers.
No changing and assuming of "those taken."
Eliminate the IMPOSSIBILITIES, CLEARLY misconstrued to protect a doctrine.
Just read the 3 comings and acknowledge the bible is true.
you do not have any verses to prove what you say, none.

Look I do not present a "doctrine" I present scripture, ill say the same to you as I said to taken this morning.

rebuilder, the words of Christ are very clear and should not be denied, either you believe what jesus said or you do not there is no middle ground;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
Mat 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

At that time, and only then, will the Son of man appear and all will see him coming in his glory. that time is immediately AFTER the tribulation. here we talk about the great tribulation as described in the previous verses of the verses ( Matthew 24:2-28 )

Jesus words are clear and require NO interpretation from anyone. The rest of scrioture say the sane thing.
 
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amigo de christo

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If everyone saw the same you see in Paul's words there would be no arguments. I have researched briefly where this pre-trib raptures theory comes from and from what I could find, it originated with Darby and made it's way until today, words of Men indeed.

""
The pre-tribulation rapture theory, which teaches that Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on earth, originated primarily in the early 19th century. It was first systematized and popularized by John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a leader in the Plymouth Brethren movement in Britain. Darby's ideas gained wider acceptance through the influential Scofield Reference Bible published in 1909, which helped spread this interpretation in American evangelical circles.


While some claim there are earlier hints or references to a rapture in historical Christian writings, the specific doctrine of a secret, pre-tribulation rapture cannot be clearly traced to biblical or early church sources. Instead, it appears as a distinct theological development during a period of intense prophetic interest and eschatological speculation in the 1800s. There is mention of Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish girl, who had a vision in 1830 that contributed to the spread of pre-tribulation ideas, but the core theological framework was developed and promoted by Darby.""

source perplexity AI
If everyone saw indeed my friend .
Have you ever wondered why it is i see no contradictions at all
in the letters of any of those apostels to include paul . And that every word they all left
is not for the jew or the gentile , BUT UNTO THOSE BELEIVING JEWS and GENTILES .
IN other words WE BEEN DUPED BY MEN .
ALL them letters , to include old testament pr ophets and etc
from page one to page last , ITS ALL GOOD MEAT for the soul of the sheep .
The GOD of the old testament IS NO DIFFERENT at all from the GOD of the new testament .
JESUS is not pitted against an angry GOD and came to save us from The GOD OF THE OLD testament
as some act like .
RATHER JESUS CAME TO FULLFILL . GOD was not angry at HIS OWN LAW
or HIS OWN WORDS . HE did not f ind fault in HIS COVENANT
HE FOUND FAULT IN THEM . But today many act like their jesus came to
ALLOW SIN UPON US rather than to SET US FREE FROM SIN . hope that makes sense .
Now go ahead and ask me what men , what denominations , what etc did i sit under to learn .
And the answer is , G OD , YESHUA , and i read and loved and have kept reading daily THAT BIBLE for to learn .
YOU wanna know why we got all the problems we do in christendom .
MEN did exactly what the apostels and yes even paul warned they would .
THEY CAME IN to make desciples OF MEN , NOT OF CHRIST . the bible . OH IT IS MEAT for us my f riend .
And there are no contradictions in it . ITS simply meat for us all .
 

Davy

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You are so blatantly ridiculous I can hardly contain my laughter.

You're only laughing at yourself and your own Biblical illiteracy.

IF YOU were Scripturally Taught, you should have Learned, Believed, Trusted:
The Word of God IS the Supreme Teacher…
The Spirit of man Learns Gods Truth From God…
AND…
ONLY the mans Spirit and God Knows the mans Belief.

That's just a rant leading to nowhere. GOD by The Holy Spirit has given me much understanding in His Word, and it's because I follow His precepts for how to study His Word as one of His disciples, and I pray about it, asking Him. I didn't do a bunch of jumping bean type philosophy pulling a verse here and a verse there from The Bible like you've been wrongly taught to do, and which is why you have no more of an understanding of what God's written Word actually says beyond the basic Gospel Truth. A first grader can understand The Gospel, and that's still where you are at, and your preachers love it, because it means they can feed you just any baloney they want after that, and you'll just eat it up, just like the warnings we in Christ are given in The New Testament about such things...

Col 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
KJV


Even your avatar 'TAKEN' is based on a LIE from how pre-trib wrongly interprets Jesus' parable about the 1st one taken and the other left behind, per Luke 17. The 1st one Taken per Luke 17 is by the future Antichrist and his host, represented by the fowls that eat on a 'dead carcase'...

Luke 17:36-37
36 "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

37 And they answered and said unto Him,
"Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

Matt 24:28
28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
 
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amigo de christo

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If everyone saw the same you see in Paul's words there would be no arguments. I have researched briefly where this pre-trib raptures theory comes from and from what I could find, it originated with Darby and made it's way until today, words of Men indeed.

""
The pre-tribulation rapture theory, which teaches that Christians will be taken up to heaven before a period of tribulation on earth, originated primarily in the early 19th century. It was first systematized and popularized by John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a leader in the Plymouth Brethren movement in Britain. Darby's ideas gained wider acceptance through the influential Scofield Reference Bible published in 1909, which helped spread this interpretation in American evangelical circles.


While some claim there are earlier hints or references to a rapture in historical Christian writings, the specific doctrine of a secret, pre-tribulation rapture cannot be clearly traced to biblical or early church sources. Instead, it appears as a distinct theological development during a period of intense prophetic interest and eschatological speculation in the 1800s. There is mention of Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish girl, who had a vision in 1830 that contributed to the spread of pre-tribulation ideas, but the core theological framework was developed and promoted by Darby.""

source perplexity AI
IF, if only , if only .
Now allow me a moment to stop weeping .
IF ONLY men , mankind , so called christainkind had the love for truth shed upon their hearts
But many h ave only the love of what pleases their flesh upon them hearts .
Now why would i even dared to have wrote such a thing .
GO to and behold many places , churches , sites
and upon simple investigation you will see a generation
that has long picked and chosen what scrips to adhere to as they will also twist others .
I SEE NO LOVE for the T RUTH upon many .
I see only the love of the mix and while the mixtures many love often dont agree with anothers love of mixture
THEY ALL darn sure have a problem with simply BELIEVING and LOVING the TRUTH as it was written .
OH says one that letter was for the jews only
or that saying was for another time .
No matter what they say there is one thing present within them all .
T HEY HAVE NO LOVE FOR THE SIMPLE TRUTH or to learn it for themselves
but rather chose whaterver man , calivin , methodist , h yper grace , prosperity gopsel
or etc . And what they seem to now all have more and m ore in common is
THEY merging , they have grown weary and worn down
and now seek the false solution and its false unity . Things are not LOOKING GOOD .
in other words what i am seeing now is
the decieved who loved whatever mans twisted doctrine they sat under
NOW ALL BUYING INTO the lets find comm on gr ound and agree that doctrines dont really matter
THE decieved are now in LOVE with the greatest lie of all that has come to merge the deiceved WITH the DEciEVED
to be as ONE in this last and late and final hour . THINGS have not been well at all
within the realm of christendom and nOW in this last hour IT GROWS ONL Y MASSIVE WORSE .
 
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Taken

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taken, the words of Christ are very clear and should not be denied, either you believe what jesus said or you do not there is no middle ground;

My quote, said Precisely …
The Word of God IS the Supreme Teacher…

And you somehow think that amounts to Denial of the Lords words?

Utter nonsense!

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

While YOU Emphasize IMMEDIATELY AFTER…
The Highlight IS tribulation….
”OF THOSE DAYS…”

The Tribulation OF THOSE DAYS…
IS: the series of Seven Seals Judgements of Tribulations Sent down From Heaven Upon The Whole World…
Because OF… the Anger and WRATH of the LAMB OF God.


Rev 6:
1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


So WHY… do YOU think, IN those Days, the Lamb of God is Angry AT Any Men ON the Earth?


Jesus words are clear and require NO interpretation from anyone.

You might try Actually Reading the Word of God, rather than relying on a foreshadow snippet.
The Seals Tribulation Covers Days and Days of The Lambs Wrath upon the Earth and its occupants.

So Again…can You Answer…
WHY… do YOU think, IN those Days, the Lamb of God is Angry AT Any Men ON the Earth?
 

Taken

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You're only laughing at yourself and your own Biblical illiteracy.

No… laughing at your Gaslighting nonsense.

That's just a rant leading to nowhere.

I am lead by the Spirit of God…
Not my job or intent to speak for you or lead you anywhere…as you conversely attempt to do…

“ I didn't do a bunch of jumping bean type philosophy pulling a verse here and a verse there from The Bible like you've been wrongly taught to do,”

Anyone with an ounce of grey matter, Begins hearing, reading, studying Scripture …
And SHOULD BE KEYING IN ON the Scriptures…
DO THIS … FOR THIS consequence
DO THAT … FOR THAT consequence


Not Rocket science…individuals CHERRYPICK, Decide, Choose… WHICH Scriptures THEY Want to “APPLY” to Them…
With God
With Christ the Lord God
With Satan
A man be their god and master
They be their own god

which is why you have no more of an understanding of what God's written Word actually says beyond the basic Gospel Truth.

The Holy Spirit has given me much understanding in His Word, and it's because I follow His precepts for how to study His Word as one of His disciples, and I pray about it, asking Him.

Hope you don’t pull a muscle Foolishly putting on display your boasting and Back-patting yourself…(Your… I, I, I, me, me, me) —->>>

2 Cor. 11:
[17] That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
[18] Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
[19] For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
 

LoveYeshua

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My quote, said Precisely …
The Word of God IS the Supreme Teacher…

And you somehow think that amounts to Denial of the Lords words?

Utter nonsense!



While YOU Emphasize IMMEDIATELY AFTER…
The Highlight IS tribulation….
”OF THOSE DAYS…”

The Tribulation OF THOSE DAYS…
IS: the series of Seven Seals Judgements of Tribulations Sent down From Heaven Upon The Whole World…
Because OF… the Anger and WRATH of the LAMB OF God.


Rev 6:
1] And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
[3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
[7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
[12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


So WHY… do YOU think, IN those Days, the Lamb of God is Angry AT Any Men ON the Earth?




You might try Actually Reading the Word of God, rather than relying on a foreshadow snippet.
The Seals Tribulation Covers Days and Days of The Lambs Wrath upon the Earth and its occupants.

So Again…can You Answer…
WHY… do YOU think, IN those Days, the Lamb of God is Angry AT Any Men ON the Earth?
I have answered already but you wont listen.
 

Jay Ross

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Isaiah 25:21-23??
My bad, it should have read Isaiah 24:21-23.

And yes, it points to the same time period as found in Matthew 24:29-31, after the judged kings of the earth and the Judged heavenly hosts are punished after many days, i.e. after 1,000 years, after which verse 23 states: -

23 Then the moon will be disgraced​
And the sun ashamed;​
For the Lord of hosts will reign​
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem​
And before His elders, gloriously.​
And Mat 24 29-31 states: -

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

We should note that the time that the punishment of the kings of the earth and the heavenly hosts occurs during the Little While period after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked and the released kings of the earth and the released heavenly host, i.e. the Angels, who are also known as the beasts of the fields, bring great tribulation to the face of the earth which is referenced in Mat 24:29.

PS: -I went back to my original post and corrected my Biblical reference.​
 

Davy

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No… laughing at your Gaslighting nonsense.



I am lead by the Spirit of God…

If you were led by The Spirit of God you would agree with what Lord Jesus said for when His future coming to gather His saints will be, which is AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it like the false pre-trib rapture theory from men that you instead... put your faith in. But you are not led by The Holy Spirit. You are led by men on a leash.