Jesus Chooses Us

[amigo de christo]

Ecumenism is not the topic.

If you held a meeting and the topic was cake baking
and a man had stood and said things about chicken baking then of course
we would have said Hey were here to talk about cake and not chicken baking .
BUT TELL me , my near and dear friend
IF the same meeting were being held
and a man had seen smoke all over the tops of the b uildi ng
and the building was on fire
YET none seemed to notice
AND then that man gets up and says to all , HEY we have to get outta here
the building is on f ire .
TELL me are you gonna tell that man , HEY the topic is cake baking not the building being on fire .
I DIDNT THINK SO .
ECUMENCISM is gonna lead this people to the day of their own destruction
and thus SOMEONE HAS to warn them . cause most just go with the flow .
Now if i could get you to agree and get out of such places
WELL then that would be a real good start .
cause friend them BUILDINGS are on FIRE and its all coming day on the day of the LORD
and we have got to get them out before they perish in the flames

 

[rwb]

Thanks for sharing.
I guess you're laying the groundwork for Monergism?

Greetings again GracePeace,

I think it might be more beneficial if you could share what parts of Monergism have you questioning whether or not they are supported from the Word of God and not from the mind of any man? I wish to address the things that might be troubling you, rather than getting into long divisive conversations, which is what I believe you also would like.

blessings, rwb

 

[FaithWillDo]

It really is my thread (in the sense that I started it, and did so for my purposes), and I am Synergist, but I am not sure I should be, or how that ultimately is worked out, and I don't want arguing about WHETHER OR NOT Monergism is true (there are UNLIMITED threads where that is the topic being argued), just to hear from Monergists to hopefully be edified.

Dear GracePeace,
Here is a simple statement on Monergism vs. Synergism that I found online:

Monergism and Synergism have been debated within the church for centuries. It is no exaggeration to say that this debate concerns the very heart of the gospel. First, let us define the two terms. Discussions about monergism vs. synergism are, theologically speaking, about who brings about our salvation. Monergism is the view that God alone effects our salvation. This view is usually associated with Calvinistic and Reformed traditions. Synergism is the view that God works together with us in some way to effect salvation.

Now, let's see what scripture teaches and see if we can find any truth in the statement above.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope...

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Since all mankind sins, all mankind has become the children of the Devil. The children of the Devil are under the penalty of the death due to their sins. Because of such, all mankind is "condemned already":

John 3:18 He (a child of God/a converted believer) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (a child of the Devil/all mankind) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

From the scriptures above, it is easy to see that mankind has a very big problem. Mankind was created by God in such away way that they became carnally mined and sinful. In that condition, mankind has no ability to stop sinning. Nor does mankind have any desire or ability to know the true God or to understand and accept that Jesus is the Christ. And without those desires and abilities, it is impossible for mankind to develop their own faith in Christ.

If you can't accept what the scriptures above state, then you will not understand the work that Christ is doing under the New Covenant and why the spiritual process of conversion is NECESSARY for a person's salvation.

Below I will explain how Christ saves a person.

Salvation is a free gift and it comes to a person solely by Christ's spiritual work that He does within them. The person contributes nothing because they have nothing that they can contribute. Even a person's faith and acceptance of Christ as their Lord and Savior is a gift from God.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (includes faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Though there are many teachings in scripture on what Christ will do to convert a person into a child of God, I will center on Paul's conversion experience to present those steps since Paul's experience is the pattern whereby all others will be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

To begin the salvation process, Christ will "suddenly" come to a person at a time of His own choosing.

Under the Old Covenant, the physical temple was Christ's temple. But under the New Covenant, mankind will be His temple. Under both covenants, Christ will come to His temple in the same sudden way. The concept of "first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual" applies (1Cor 15:46).

Mat 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Christ doesn't wait for the person to ask Him to come nor does He ask the person for their permission to come. As mankind's God and Creator, Christ has the right to do as He pleases.

This scripture applies:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

It is in this same way that Christ "suddenly" came to Paul on the Damascus Road. At that time, Paul hated Christ and was not seeking to know Him or to follow Him. Paul's hatred of Christ is the same hatred that every person has when Christ first comes to them.

Since Paul was carnally minded and had only hatred for Christ as he travelled the Damascus Road, what caused Paul to quickly change and accept Christ as His Lord?

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly, there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecute thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecute: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Did Paul just decide on his own to accept Jesus as His Lord or did Christ cause it to happen?

Consider this verse:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

In the spiritual language of Christ, "water" in all its various forms represents the Holy Spirit. It falls on a person who is in the process of being saved at TWO separate times . The first time the Holy Spirit falls on a person, it is called the Early Rain. The second time it falls on a person, it is called the Latter Rain/Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

It really is my thread (in the sense that I started it, and did so for my purposes)...

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Holy Spirit and it will give a person a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts.

From the person's newly gifted faith, they will make a confession of faith and become a "babe" in Christ.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The gift of the Early Rain is what causes a person to become a believer and a follower of Christ. It is at this time that a person is called to be a saint. They are not a saint yet and won't ever be if they have not also been chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world.

Mat 22:14 For many are called (to be saints), but few are chosen (to be saints).

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In some of Paul's letters, Paul made the distinction between those who have been called to be saints and those who have become saints:

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (converted/given both the Early & Latter Rains) which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus (those called to be saints/the babes/given only the Early Rain):

So why doesn't the Early Rain convert the person who receives it?

It is because the Early Rain is given in a small measure and will leave the person spiritually blind and carnally minded. At this time, the true Christ will still remain veiled from their understanding. This lack of understanding is shown in Paul's conversion experience by Paul not being able to understand who was speaking to him. Paul had to be told who the person was because Paul had no spiritual ability to truly know Christ on his own. Paul also became physically blind to symbolize his lack of spiritual understanding. It was Paul's spiritual blindness that caused Paul to have to be led by the hand by others (this is why babes need teachers).

Because every babe in Christ remains in this weak spiritual condition, Satan can and will easily deceive them. The apostasy of every babe started happening shortly after Paul's death (Acts 20:29-31). Since that time, no babe has been spared from being devoured by the wolves. It is at this time that a babe will fall away and be made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

The three days that Paul spent in Damascus represented the time that Paul became apostate (a man of sin). At that time, Paul's blindness remained and he was unable to consume the true bread from heaven or the wine of the New Covenant. To further symbolize Paul's apostate condition, Paul was staying at the home of a man named "Judas".

But because Paul was chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved before he died (Elect of God/one of the "few"), Christ caused Paul to pray for understanding. Christ then responded to Paul by coming to him a second time (typed by Ananias). When Christ came, Christ poured out the Latter Rain (the baptism) and healed Paul's blindness (the scales fell from Paul's eyes). Paul was then able to "eat meat".

The verses below apply:

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (heir of Abraham), when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Isa 40:29 He gives power to the weak (to mankind by the Early Rain), and to those who have no might He increases strength. 30 Even the youths (babes in Christ) shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall (become apostate), 31 But those who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength (by the Latter Rain); they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk (by faith and by the Spirit) and not faint (not spiritually die).

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you (by the Latter Rain), and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

After a "called and chosen" person is given the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will see the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15-16) that previously occurred within themselves when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them. Judgment will then fall which will spiritually purify them. This is shown in Mat 24:37-41 and is also represented by the tares being removed and burned (parable of the Wheat and the Tares). After the person's judgment is complete, the person will be converted and will be a saint. They will then reign with Christ in the final age to bring in the final and great harvest of mankind.

At that time, Christ will show mercy to the goats (those who were not chosen to be a first fruit/heir of Abraham) who are being judged by Christ in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment/not literal fire). Christ's mercy will come to the goats as the Early and Latter Rains which will give them faith and a new birth as a child of God. Justice will then be satisfied by the death of the child of the Devil who will perish in the Lake of Fire.

This verse applies:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

After Christ has saved the last person of mankind, the verse below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus Christ was sent by His Father to save the world (1John 4:14) and He will not fail. In this age, Christ is only saving those blessed individuals who were chosen for an early salvation (why they are called first fruits). In the next and final age, Christ will bring in the final and full harvest of mankind:

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest (the Elect), and the feast of ingathering at the year's end (everyone else).

Salvation is a free gift from God to all mankind. To give mankind this gift, Christ will come to every person who has ever lived and do His spiritual work within them. After His spiritual work is complete, the person will be spiritually changed into a child of God who will be like Christ. This is mankind's salvation.

From what I presented above, I hope you can now see that scripture agrees with this statement:

Monergism is the view that God alone effects our salvation.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Salvation is a free gift from God to all mankind. To give mankind this gift, Christ will come to every person who has ever lived and do His spiritual work within them. After His spiritual work is complete, the person will be spiritually changed into a child of God who will be like Christ. This is mankind's salvation.

From what I presented above, I hope you can now see that scripture agrees with this statement:

Monergism is the view that God alone effects our salvation.

Joe

Greetings Joe,

Are you saying that Monergism teaches universal salvation? If you are that is not Monergism but is that which Monergism denies.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Greetings Joe,

Are you saying that Monergism teaches universal salvation? If you are that is not Monergism but is that which Monergism denies.

Dear rwb,
All I said about Monergism is that this statement is true:

Monergism is the view that God alone effects our salvation.

It is God's Word that proclaims that Jesus Christ is mankind's Savior.

To believe otherwise means that Jesus Christ did not obey His Father:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

When a person disobeys God, they have sinned.

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ will not complete the mission that His Father gave Him to complete?

Do you really believe that the Father would send His Son on a mission to save the world if Jesus did not have the legal authority and the abilities to fully accomplish it?

If Christ fails to save even just one person, Christ would miss the mark that His Father set and that would be a sin.

Do you have enough faith to believe this scripture below?

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

It is Christ's obedience to His Father and subsequent work that saves mankind. Mankind cannot add anything to Christ's work, not even faith because a person’s faith does not originate from within them. Their faith was a gift from God that came from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that Christ freely gave to them. If a person claims otherwise, they are stealing from Christ and His work.

When a babe believes that a person needs to add something to Christ's work (even faith or repentance), they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine. When they do this mixing, they have been bitten by Satan and have become unfaithful.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

When a believer accepts the false doctrine of Synergism, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine.

Synergism is the view that God works together with us in some way to effect salvation.

In other words, accepting the false doctrine of Synergism is the sin that leads to death. This is the only sin that a believer can commit that will make them unfaithful. And without faith, they are no longer covered by the grace of Jesus Christ and His New Covenant.

After a believer (a babe/Early Rain only) becomes unfaithful, they cannot be renewed by repentance. Only the return of Jesus Christ with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) will restore them. In this age, Christ is only returning to the babes who have been chosen for an early salvation. They are the Elect. For all other babes, they will be like the foolish virgins and will have to turn back. They were never given the extra flask of oil (anointing of the Holy Spirit/Latter Rain) so that they would be made ready for the Bridegroom's appearing.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
All I said about Monergism is that this statement is true:

Monergism is the view that God alone effects our salvation.

It is God's Word that proclaims that Jesus Christ is mankind's Savior.

To believe otherwise means that Jesus Christ did not obey His Father:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

When a person disobeys God, they have sinned.

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ will not complete the mission that His Father gave Him to complete?

Do you really believe that the Father would send His Son on a mission to save the world if Jesus did not have the legal authority and the abilities to fully accomplish it?

If Christ fails to save even just one person, Christ would miss the mark that His Father set and that would be a sin.

Do you have enough faith to believe this scripture below?

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

It is Christ's obedience to His Father and subsequent work that saves mankind. Mankind cannot add anything to Christ's work, not even faith because a person’s faith does not originate from within them. Their faith was a gift from God that came from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that Christ freely gave to them. If a person claims otherwise, they are stealing from Christ and His work.

When a babe believes that a person needs to add something to Christ's work (even faith or repentance), they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine. When they do this mixing, they have been bitten by Satan and have become unfaithful.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

When a believer accepts the false doctrine of Synergism, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine.

Synergism is the view that God works together with us in some way to effect salvation.

In other words, accepting the false doctrine of Synergism is the sin that leads to death. This is the only sin that a believer can commit that will make them unfaithful. And without faith, they are no longer covered by the grace of Jesus Christ and His New Covenant.

After a believer (a babe/Early Rain only) becomes unfaithful, they cannot be renewed by repentance. Only the return of Jesus Christ with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) will restore them. In this age, Christ is only returning to the babes who have been chosen for an early salvation. They are the Elect. For all other babes, they will be like the foolish virgins and will have to turn back. They were never given the extra flask of oil (anointing of the Holy Spirit/Latter Rain) so that they would be made ready for the Bridegroom's appearing.

Joe

Joe, we're very close in our understanding of the Sovereign Grace Doctrines called Monergism. I agree that mankind can add nothing to grace through faith to merit salvation. As you've shown it is the work of God alone to eternally save His people. The only difference between what you believe, and I believe comes from our understanding of the word 'world', and perhaps 'mankind' also.

While it is true that Christ is the Savior of the world, it is not true that He is the Savior of all mankind in this world. There is always a stipulation for whosoever among mankind of this world shall be saved. Even the verse that you quote, speaks of "whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God." In this world there are many who shall confess Jesus as the Son of God, and it is through them, not all of mankind, but those who confess Jesus is the Son of God that the world shall be saved. IOW whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved, not all mankind, but only those who believe.

1 John 4:14-16 (KJV) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

It is in this manner that God so loves the world, and that the world shall be saved. God sent His Son, that whosoever believeth shall not perish, but have everlasting life, that the world that God so loves shall be saved. But not all of mankind shall be saved, because many shall never believe on His name, and never confess that Jesus is the Son of God. They shall die in unbelief, and after that for them comes the Judgment.

John 3:15-19 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

When the gospel is proclaimed to whosoever is ordained to eternal life, the Spirit imputes faith into their hearts. Through this faith given them through the grace of God, that man will believe God and be eternally saved. There is no question, whosoever believes in Christ has been born again, and as a new child of God, they will repent of their sins and turn away from the lusts of the flesh and turn to Christ for forgiveness.

Acts 13:47-48 (KJV) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God did not send His Son, Christ Jesus our Lord to fail to save the world. Neither did God send Christ to save all of humanity living in the world, for through Christ and whosoever shall be saved the whole world, made new again, shall be saved.

Blessings, rwb

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, we're very close in our understanding of the Sovereign Grace Doctrines called Monergism.

Dear rwb,
You said:
I agree that mankind can add nothing to grace through faith to merit salvation.

From what you stated in the balance of your post, you do not believe what you stated above. You are adding a requirement of man's works (Old Wine) to the New Covenant (New Wine) so as to qualify a person to receive their salvation. Scripture clearly says that no man can confess that Jesus is Lord unless Christ has given them the Holy Spirit. After they have the Spirit, they can no longer call Jesus accursed (reject Him).

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It is solely Christ's work that changes a person's heart so that they have faith and will make a confession of faith.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

The natural man cannot spiritually change themselves. Christ must do it for them and He does it by giving the natural man the Spirit so as to make them into a spiritual man.

Christ is the Savior and He alone saves a person by His choosing to do so. Mankind has no say in the matter. If mankind did, no one would be saved because the natural man thinks the things of God are "foolishness".

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The only way for the natural man's unbelieving condition to change is for Christ to come to them without their asking or permission and freely give them the Spirit. The person cannot reject the Spirit because they have no ability to do so. And the only way to know that Christ gave a person the free gift of Spirit is when the person makes a confession of faith after they hear the Gospel.

This is what Paul was saying here to the Corinthian babes:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (by their confession of faith because they were given the Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end (by the Latter Rain), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (when they are judged to complete their conversion).

Because a person can only make a confession of faith and call Jesus "Lord" if they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christ will come to all mankind someday and freely give them this gift.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

How can you read these two scriptures above and believe that most of mankind will never make a confession of faith that will give glory to the Father?

I once heard Pastor John Hagee explain these two verses above. He said that Christ will force all mankind to bow their knee to Him and call Him "Lord" - and if necessary, Christ would even break the legs of those who refuse so that they will have no choice but to bow to Him. Is this how you understand these two scriptures? If so, how can that kind of confession ever give glory to the Father?

No one is deserving of the gift of the Spirit but Christ will give it to them anyway because He loves all mankind and because He blesses His enemies.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh the sun
(Christ, the Sun of Righteousness) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (the Early and Latter Rain) on the just and on the unjust.

Here is the truth about salvation: In this age, Christ is ONLY giving the gift of the Holy Spirit (both the Early and Latter Rains) to those who have been chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. They will be the heirs of Abraham and will have "life" in the final age. At that time, the Elect will reign with Christ to bring in the full and final harvest of mankind. That is the purpose of why Christ is only saving a few people in this age. These blessed few do not make up the full harvest. They are only the first fruits of the harvest.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

After the last person is saved in the final age, God will then be "all in all" (no one left out of the Kingdom of Heaven).

1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You said:
God did not send His Son, Christ Jesus our Lord to fail to save the world. Neither did God send Christ to save all of humanity living in the world

Your statement denies the truth of God's Word. God did send Jesus Christ to save the world, you just do not believe it.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

The deceptions of Satan are too powerful for an unconverted, spiritually blind and carnally minded babe to overcome on their own.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The only way for an apostate babe to come out of Satan's deceptions is for Christ to come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain. The baptism of the Spirit will heal their spiritual blindness so that they can "see" the Abomination of Desolation which occurred within them (God's temple) earlier when Satan indwelt them with the spirit of anti-Christ.

Mat 24:15 When (not "if") ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

After the person realizes who and what they became under Satan's deceptions, Christ will appear to them and spiritually purify them by His judgment.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (because judgment is about to fall)

After this judgment is complete, the person will be converted. Only then will the person be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children (no longer a babe), ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In this age, "many" are called to be saints but only a "few" of them are actually chosen to be saints. The Early and Latter Rains are what separates the called but not chosen (foolish virgins) from those who are both called and chosen (wise virgins). In this way, no man can boast about their salvation. Salvation is truly a gift from God. And as I have shown above, this gift will be given to all mankind BEFORE Christ ends His work and the ages come to an end.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he (the Elect) hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire in the final age).

I recommend that you do as scripture teaches and pray for understanding. It is the only way to have it.

Joe

 

[rwb]

I recommend that you do as scripture teaches and pray for understanding. It is the only way to have it.

Joe

Joe, you are not adhering to the wishes of the OP. The desire was not to argue, but rather to post why one would believe in the doctrines called Monergism. Monergism does not support your doctrine of universal salvation. Monergism defends the doctrine of 'limited atonement' not unlimited atonement.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, you are not adhering to the wishes of the OP. The desire was not to argue, but rather to post why one would believe in the doctrines called Monergism. Monergism does not support your doctrine of universal salvation. Monergism defends the doctrine of 'limited atonement' not unlimited atonement.

Dear rwb,
It is a fine line between arguing and teaching. I believe I am teaching and hopefully, being encouraging.

Also, I am not defending Monergism. I am only agreeing with its main teaching that states that Jesus Christ is mankind's Savior, and as such, Christ alone does the saving.

If you believe that presenting scripture is "arguing", then, I guess that is why you believe I am guilty of it.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
It is a fine line between arguing and teaching. I believe I am teaching and hopefully, being encouraging.

Also, I am not defending Monergism. I am only agreeing with its main teaching that states that Jesus Christ is mankind's Savior, and as such, Christ alone does the saving.

If you believe that presenting scripture is "arguing", then, I guess that is why you believe I am guilty of it.

Joe

Joe, I didn't mean I that you should not argue. It seems you are inducing me to argue for Monergism. That would not be beneficial to the OP who wishes to know if one might find comfort through believing the Sovereign Grace Doctrines, labeled Monergism.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, I didn't mean I that you should not argue. It seems you are inducing me to argue for Monergism. That would not be beneficial to the OP who wishes to know if one might find comfort through believing the Sovereign Grace Doctrines, labeled Monergism.

Dear rwb,
I am not trying to induce you or anyone else to accept Monergism. Far from it. I am presenting you the truth of God's Word so that you can determine which parts of Monergism are true and which are not.

Monergism is just one of the many false doctrines of the apostate church - doctrines which have some elements of truth, but in whole, they are false. This is one of the reasons why Satan's lies are so deceiving.

This parable applies:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The loaf of bread that apostate babes consume is mixed with "hidden" leaven. The leaven is hidden in the meal (truth) to denote the deceptive nature of the leavened loaf of bread. The loaf still has some truth in it, but overall, the loaf is false.

I hope you pray and think about the scriptures that I presented to you. It is a very joyful experience when Christ reveals the truth that He is truly mankind's Savior. I experienced this joy many years ago when I learned that every person I have ever known will not be forgotten by Christ. Christ is not a respecter of persons as Peter said - so everyone will be saved.

God the Father chose a few people to be saved early but that does not mean that there is anything special about them. They are no different than anyone else. However, they are more blessed to suit the purposes of God.

Consider these two verses:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Does the clay have any say into what kind of vessel the Potter makes? Of course, not. The Potter is the one who makes those decisions and it is the Potter who does the work of making the clay into the vessel He desires. Mankind is the clay and Christ is the Potter. When Christ finishes His work, all mankind will be made into a new vessel that will be pleasing to the Potter. Christ accomplishes this change by His work of "conversion".

Now, consider this verse:

Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Christ is speaking to the same Jews who were responsible for crucifying Him. They were certainly His enemies and they certainly died in unbelief. But when Christ responded to them, He did not say that they were going to be eternally lost. This was never an issue for Christ because Christ loves His enemies and will bless them all with salvation. The only issue that Christ mentions to them is "when" their salvation will occur.

This is probably a good time to end our discussion.

Joe

 

[GracePeace]

If you held a meeting and the topic was cake baking
and a man had stood and said things about chicken baking then of course
we would have said Hey were here to talk about cake and not chicken baking .
BUT TELL me , my near and dear friend
IF the same meeting were being held
and a man had seen smoke all over the tops of the b uildi ng
and the building was on fire
YET none seemed to notice
AND then that man gets up and says to all , HEY we have to get outta here
the building is on f ire .
TELL me are you gonna tell that man , HEY the topic is cake baking not the building being on fire .
I DIDNT THINK SO .
ECUMENCISM is gonna lead this people to the day of their own destruction
and thus SOMEONE HAS to warn them . cause most just go with the flow .
Now if i could get you to agree and get out of such places
WELL then that would be a real good start .
cause friend them BUILDINGS are on FIRE and its all coming day on the day of the LORD
and we have got to get them out before they perish in the flames

It is unwarranted, and I will thank you to remain on topic.