Fred, there is something you seem not to understand. God, through Jesus Christ 'OFFERS' the message about Christ (gospel) to all people without exception. Then through the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed, God, through His Holy Spirit, 'GIVES' eternal life to whosoever believes according to grace through faith imputed by the power of the Spirit.
Jesus Chooses Us
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Fred, there is something you seem not to understand. God, through Jesus Christ 'OFFERS' the message about Christ (gospel) to all people without exception. Then through the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed, God, through His Holy Spirit, 'GIVES' eternal life to whosoever believes according to grace through faith imputed by the power of the Spirit.
How will man who is spiritually DEAD in trespasses and sins freely choose to believe?
Romans 3:10-18 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
This is true! Every man knows, through all of creation of the Creator God NATURALLY! But mankind in unbelief has no knowledge or understanding of the Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. The knowledge of Christ unto salvation does not come NATURALLY but is SUPERNATURALLY given to whosoever hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God and through the power of the Spirit believes by grace through faith.
Hi rwb
Happy to respond to you.
Will not respond to THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS so as to cut down the reply...we could discuss that too if you wish.
We have two problems here with John Calvin's theory that God chooses who will be saved. I use John Calvin because he is the most popular/famous Calvinist but, of course, there were others.
1. The first problem is that Calvin stated that God SEEMS to save some, but then pulls the proverbial rug form under them.
that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8
2. The second problem is logical.
The NT teaches that we hear the word and THEN can come to believe. Romans 10:17
Acts tells us that salvation has come to ALL MEN. Also Titus 2:11
Jesus said to repent and believe in the gospel. This is a command. Why give a command if God will be doing the choosing? Mark 1:15
The bible teaches me that if I hear about God, and believe that He is, Hebrews 11:6, and live according to His will....I will be saved.
Since I myself chose this,,,,I can know of my salvation.
I do believe in doing good deeds.
Don't you?
Do you believe that if you help your neighbor your good deed is like a filthy rag to Jesus?
Didn't Jesus teach the parable of the Good Samaritan?
However, good deeds has nothing to do with this discussion.
Your good deeds DO NOT save you.
Your belief in God saves you.
Your obedience to God saves you.
I agree totally !
You are saved by your faith.
I don't see any talk of imputation of faith...do you have some verses?
Look at the verse you posted...John 1:12-13
BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM.
You had to RECEIVE....
no imputation.
And as to NOT BY BLOOD, OR FLESH, OR THE WILL OF MAN,
BUT OF GOD.
Why not do a little study on this?
Outside of Calvinist writers.
You'll find that it does not mean what you think it does.
However, yes, it is certainly the will of God THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED.
But...it's up to each one of us.
The above is very problematic rwb.
Does Romans 1:20 state anything about Jesus?
Why do you add to scripture?
God has ALWAYS made Himself be known to man.
It is up to man to say YES to God once he is aware of Him.
NOWHERE does scripture state what reformed/calvinist theology states.
The jailer in Acts 16 was not told by Paul to wait around till God chose him.
The jailer was told to BELIEVE AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Did you want to discuss the doctrines of John Calvin, or the doctrines of the Bible? I prefer the Bible, don't you?
Good deeds are not worth much if you're doing them to receive reward. Whether or not our good deeds are blessed by God or not is based on that which proceeds from the heart. If the heart is in unbelief, all of our deeds are filthy rags in the sight of God. Even good deeds done in faith are not accepted as being good if the deed is done that you might receive reward.
God preached the gospel unto Abraham, promising the SEED (Christ) would be his heir. Through hearing the gospel Abraham was imputed/reckoned/accounted as righteous according to God's grace through faith he did not possess before hearing, and Abraham became known as the father of the faithful.
Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Genesis 15:4-6 (KJV) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:1-3 (KJV) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Counted above is translated from the same Greek word translated imputed below.
λογίζομαι logízomai, log-id'-zom-ahee
Romans 4:11-13 (KJV) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
None would receive him while in unbelief. The ability to believe in Christ for everlasting life is the work of God.
John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
That cannot mean all men without exception, because we all agree that not all of mankind shall be saved. Therefore 'all' here is all who shall believe! All without distinction, but never all without exception.
God is Trinity! He is known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. While creation most assuredly proclaims the glory of the invisible God, who is Spirit, it does not give evidence of God the Man, called Jesus Christ a son of man, as well as Son of God.
The jailer was told to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved, and thy house." It's not simply a natural faith that all mankind possess that saves a man. Faith that saves is supernatural through the gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. Whosoever is ordained to eternal life shall believe.
Acts 16:29-31 (KJV) Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Guys, I said I didn't want another thread where there were arguments about Monergism, that I just wanted to speak about it with people who were acquainted with it and be edified.
My apologies GracePeace, I tried to keep the discussion about the doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace which is what I believe Monergism embraces. Sadly, keeping the discussion on the Word or God rather than on the doctrines of John Calvin becomes a challenge when some deny the Sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. Claiming those who embrace Monergism actually embrace the doctrine of John Calvin is a way of discrediting and changing the subject from Monergism which is usually because some are adamant about the doctrine of man's free will and unlimited atonement.
Many Blessings, rwb
I didn't even realize you were involved, I just saw endless fights about the subject by this-and-that user, and I remembered I really just wanted to talk about the topic with people who are acquainted with it, not argue about it with people who didn't believe in it (I already know the arguments against it, as I have argued against it since maybe 2009).
I prefer the bible myself...it's so TRUE.
But, you see, the reformed/calvinist follow Calvin (and the such) more than the bible.
You had stated that you find comfort in that God chooses and not us.
I was just showing how there is no comfort in calvinist theology by posting what Calvin taught.
After all, if you're going to be calvinist then you should know what Calvin taught.
I agree that without faith good deeds are only good for those for whom they are worked.
I mean,,,it is good to do good.
Just not for the salvation of our souls....but for the good of others.
FIRST we must believe that God exists and make some kind of decision that we are going to live for Him.
THEN our good deeds become valuable to both our neighbor and God.
The bible does speak about receiving rewards BTW. There are a few verses.
1 Corinthians 2:8
8He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.
Not sure why you're posting all this.
Maybe to explain IMPUTED.
Abraham was reckoned as righteous.
WHY?
Because God imputed righteousness into him?
No. It says because Abraham BELIEVED God.
Genesis 15:6
6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
God gave the order.
Abraham responded.
Synergism.
Reckoned is commonly known to mean CREDITED TO....
Abraham's obedience/belief was credited to him.
Check out Genesis 15:6 in any other language.
It means to give Abraham credit for.
And...I don't see a source.
YOU were in unbelief until you believed.
If Romans 1:20 be true then there is an amount of grace given to every man whereby he is able to perceive God.
IF God literally places faith in a person....
Romans 1:20 would make no sense.
Neither would Ephesians 2:8.
We are saved by grace THROUGH faith.
It is our faith that saves us.
Now you take away from scripture.
It clearly states that GOD DESIRES FOR ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.
Why do you believe Paul only at times and not always?
Does the NT state anywhere that God does NOT want all men to be saved?
Then we must accept what Paul declares plainly - and also John and Peter.
God desires all men to be saved....
in reformed theology this becomes either
1. a lie
2. inability on God's part
since all men are not saved.
In all other theology (except reformed/calvinist) it makes perfect sense because God desires all men to be saved....
But not all will...
due to man's free will to deny God's gift.
Again, synergism.
Did persons living 5 thousand years ago need to believe in Jesus to be saved?
No.
Exactly because God is Triune.
I agree that faith is supernatural.
Could you be more precise please.
I fail to see what the above has to do with Romans 1.
What natural faith does ALL of mankind possess?
As I understand it, a person is either a believer or he is not.
Yes sir.
Belief is commanded.
No need to command what God does, only what man is to do.
God does His part,
we do ours.
(we keep His command).
Different explanations for the above.
Here's mine:
One verse does not doctrine make.
(it does sound rather calvinistic).
It IS being discussed GracePeace.
Monergism just means that God does EVERYTHING....
it's the opposite of what synergism means.
The ONLY persons that believe in monergism are the reformed/calvinist believers...
this is why you're going to attract this type of conversation.
@rwb is saying that God does everything.
I'm saying we have a part (as you believe).
If this isn't what you intended,,,then I apologize...
although I will be finishing up with my very pleasant conversation with him....
and then I'll remove myself from this thread...although it really is NOT your thread and everyone is behaving very nicely.
I've learned over the years that the doctrines called T.U.L.I.P have been credited to John Calvin. I know what each letter of the acronym means, but I did not learn this studying the works of John Calvin. I learned the truths of the acronym through my study of Scripture. It has not been my experience having been in Reformed Churches that follow Calvin more than the Bible. That's really too bad, because it causes the doctrines of Sovereign grace to be vilified by those who believe John Calvin promotes heresy. I agree, where would one find any comfort in posting the works of John Calvin when we have this wonderful book called the Bible that teaches us through His Spirit all that we need as we live in Him in this world
Yes, there are verses that appear to teach there shall be varying rewards in heaven. It is my belief that the greatest and only reward we should seek for is Christ for He tells us as He tells Abram:
Genesis 15:1 (KJV) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Hebrews 10:35-36 (KJV) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
I quoted the verses that apply. Abraham only believed God because he heard the gospel of Christ preached to him by God. And through that good word preached, faith came to Abraham by hearing God, and believing the same way every man in darkness and unbelief do, through the power of God.
We cannot be saved by our faith before we have faith by grace that is the work of God. We are called to work out our salvation, not to work for our salvation. And even that faith, after salvation our own, comes from being created unto good works that believers have been ordained to walk in, for it is God through His Spirit working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
If God desires all mankind to be saved, then all mankind would be saved and none of them forever lost. When Paul said these words, he was speaking of those we should pray for. All men in this instance speaks of even those who have authority over us, because God is the Saviour of them too IF they believe in Him. And some of them may become saved when we intercede on their behalf, and this we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1 Timothy 2:1-4 (KJV) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. As Christians we are held to a very high standard of living. Because the world watches believers, and when we are selfish and show no desire to help those less fortunate and fail to tell the story of Jesus, the gospel of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God in heaven suffers because it shall be made complete through believers who are left here for that very reason. Our prayer must always be "Come Lord Jesus, come", but He will not return before His Kingdom in heaven is complete through the power of His Word and Spirit displayed through believers.
Do you understand what I mean when I say the Sovereignty of God? I am speaking of the doctrines espoused through the acronym T.U.L.I.P.
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perseverance of the saints
Yes they did! The only thing they did not know is that He would be called by the name Jesus.
Luke 2:21 (KJV) And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
The Old Covenant body had heard the gospel just as Abraham had, but it was through the Law and Prophets that foretell of the Messiah Saviour who was to come to save.
Romans 10:16-21 (KJV) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Every human is born having a measure of faith. Faith is defined as that which we believe. The faith in fallen man is natural, we have faith in many things, people, places etc and in our own works. But faith that comes from above is supernatural because it does not originate within us, but from the power of God, through the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us before faith in Christ came we were kept under the law, whatever the law said that is what we were bound by. But when Christ came the faith in Him became known, and the law that was our teacher brought us to Christ that we might be justified (declared righteous) by faith.
Galatians 3:23-24 (KJV) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
ProverbsInPink
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True. As the Bible says.
From my experience here I'd say you should be ready to be dismissed as a Calvinist.
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