The Light
Well-Known Member
I don't recall saying any day now for October. Do you have any Idea what post or thread that is in? I think you are confusing me with someone else.
Two Gatherings at Jesus' Coming
- Thread starter marks
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Says the guy who insults others by telling them that they don't believe in scripture. What a hypocrite you are.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's one thing to just quote scripture, but another thing altogether to interpret it accurately. You are showing what the Bible says when you quote verses, but you are NOT showing us what the Bible MEANS. You are very carnal in your thinking and you read the Bible no differently than you would read a news article. But, Paul makes it clear that when it comes to the deep things of God in scripture, they must be spiritually discerned with wisdom that comes from the Holy Spirit. We need to interpret scripture with scripture whenever possible. You do not do that. Instead, you conclude that Gentiles will inherit eternal life because of their works when Jesus comes with His angels even though scripture repeatedly teaches that salvation is NOT by works.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i am very glad that you are back as i have not seen you in a long time
Many churches throughout the USA were/and still are claiming rapture for October but they missed the boat.
Now that we are at the end of October i wonder what the next date will be set by them.
The Technology/Systems for the MARK of the BEAST are being set up worldwide as we speak.
The next Prophecy to be fulfilled is the Image of the Beast = AI
and of course the revealing of the Antichrist = 2 Thess 2:5
the FINAL PROPHECY = 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2:8
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
I always us this 'rule' 6 of Bible Study Rules:
(6) The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :
The BIBLE Itself!
NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures
by the "few" difficult verses, But, ALWAYS Always
Interpret the few Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses
By ALL Of The MANY Plain and Clear Passages Of
God’s Pure And Holy Word!
Amen.
Hope this helps...
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is total gibberish. You do NOT interpret passages like the following by "what it says".
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
This passage indicates that the heavens and the earth will be burned up when the Lord Jesus comes as a thief in the night. And it indicates that what we should be looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming are "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". Not an earthly millennial kingdom. So, why don't you accept a passage like this for what it says?
LOL. Why do you continue to say nonsense like this? As if a prophecy about a woman sitting on many waters while riding on a beast with seven heads and ten horns can be fulfilled as stated? How can you not understand that some prophecy is literal and some is not? But, you don't even consistently stick with your hyper-literal method of interpretation when it comes to passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13. I guess that means you are a showing a disbelief in the words of that prophecy, according to you.
Yes, but do we all understand what is written in those passages the same? No. Are we all required to read them the same as you? Definitely not. As for the Matthew 24 passage, you think the elect refers to Israel, but NT scripture repeatedly refers to the elect as Christians, both Jew and Gentile. Who do you think are the elect in this passage.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
The elect here are clearly those who are in the church because that is who the "us" in that passage refers to. The elect that will be gathered when Jesus comes with His angels are the church, just as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Do you accept Romans 8:31-34 as written for what it says? If so, then you should understand who the elect are that will be gathered by the angels when Jesus comes.
Of course. Do you believe it will be fulfilled as written? Jesus said there that unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and His angels" at that time when He comes with His angels. Are you unable to discern that "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is the lake of fire that Revelation 20:10-15 says that the devil and those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into AFTER the thousand years?
Ask yourself why you are so lacking in spiritual discernment and why you cause scripture to contradict itself by thinking that anyone would ever inherit eternal life because of their works when scripture repeatedly teaches otherwise. Ask yourself why you don't interpret scripture with scripture while seeing that Matthew 25:41 is describing the same thing as Revelation 20:15, which we all agree will happen AFTER the thousand years, not before.
Yes, this is exactly right! Begin with what is plain, and then go on to the ambiguous.
Much love!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, that is precisely what the statement says, as I read it. Christ's coming to gather his people cannot take place unless the Apostasy takes place first, which involves the revelation of Antichrist leading to his ultimate destruction at the Coming of Chirst.
You don't read it that way--I get it. But your inability to see how I read it concerns me. However, I have no wish to impose my opinions on you--I'm just defending my own reading.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I agree! That's why I'm an Amil. Plain scripture teaches that Jesus will be burning up the heavens and the earth when He comes as a thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10-13), so I interpret more difficult passages like Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20 accordingly.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, absolutely! That is why I'm an Amil. My Amil belief is based on the following clear, plain scriptures...
Revelation 20 talks about the reign of Christ. Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ began to reign after His resurrection.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Revelation 20:6 says that those who reign with Christ are "priests of God and of Christ". Scripture teaches that Christ's followers are priests right now.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Scripture teaches that all believers will have their bodies changed to be immortal while inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Matthew 25:31-46). And it teaches that all unbelievers will be destroyed when He returns which would not allow for any mortals to populate the earth at that point, as the following scriptures indicate.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
Scripture also teaches that the saved and lost will be resurrected at generally the same time or hour and then judged.
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Scripture teaches that all people will be judged at the same time and not that there will be multiple judgments as Premills believe.
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 13:40 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
All of these clear, straightforward scriptures I have referenced support Amillennialism. Some Premills try to accuse Amills of over-spiritualizing scripture, but, as I've shown, the foundation of Amillennialism is clear, straightforward scriptures which are used to help interpret more difficult passages. Premillennialism has no such clear, straightforward scriptures to support it.
Anyone who believes some Christians in a millennial earthly kingdom retain earthly bodies, does not believe the 'EASY' scriptures.
Philippians 3:20-21
New King James Version
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Fact is they are teaching a lie, when telling others this lie, which arguably makes them a false teacher.
Chew on that, please.
Philippians 3:20-21
New King James Version
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
Fact is they are teaching a lie, when telling others this lie, which arguably makes them a false teacher.
Chew on that, please.
Philippians 3:20-21
New King James Version
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
All Christians dead or living when Christ comes a second time are transformed changed to have a glorified body like he has.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
I bet they refuse to respond to these 'EASY' scriptures with an 'AMEN'
And if they do say the AMEN to scriptures here, yet still believe in 'earthly bodied' Christian survivors, as many do think marriages, births, deaths, will continue after the second coming, they are shown to be liars.
New King James Version
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
All Christians dead or living when Christ comes a second time are transformed changed to have a glorified body like he has.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
I bet they refuse to respond to these 'EASY' scriptures with an 'AMEN'
And if they do say the AMEN to scriptures here, yet still believe in 'earthly bodied' Christian survivors, as many do think marriages, births, deaths, will continue after the second coming, they are shown to be liars.
Of course these are true! When we see Him, we will be like Him. That's part of how we know rebirth is forever. These passages are build on that presupposition.
Now.
Tell me, what is the meaning of this prophecy:
Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Be specific.
Much love!
So you are a different from what pre mill teaches then? Some kind of hybrid?
You do not believe Christian survivors of the great tribulation will keep earthly bodies untransformed at the return of Christ?
As I showed in that web article doctrine on the millennial reign from gotquestions that clearly states the premill doctrine
@marks, and anyone else interested. This is standard doctrine for the premills.
@marks, I red the appropriate text for your sheep and goat judgment comment earlier!
I asked Copilot AI
Christian survivors of the great tribulation will keep earthly bodies untransformed at the return of Christ? Link me some web sites claiming that
Yes, some Christian interpretations claim that survivors of the Great Tribulation will enter Christ’s millennial kingdom with mortal, untransformed bodies. This view is often tied to the “Sheep and Goat Judgment” in Matthew 25 and premillennial eschatology.
Here are several websites that explore or support this idea:
These views are most common in premillennial dispensationalist circles, which interpret Revelation and Matthew 24 literally. Other theological traditions may differ, especially those that emphasize glorified bodies or spiritual resurrection at Christ’s return.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copilot links don't survive getting posted but they exist!
@marks, I red the appropriate text for your sheep and goat judgment comment earlier!
I asked Copilot AI
Christian survivors of the great tribulation will keep earthly bodies untransformed at the return of Christ? Link me some web sites claiming that
Yes, some Christian interpretations claim that survivors of the Great Tribulation will enter Christ’s millennial kingdom with mortal, untransformed bodies. This view is often tied to the “Sheep and Goat Judgment” in Matthew 25 and premillennial eschatology.
Here are several websites that explore or support this idea:
Relevant Sources
- NeverThirsty.org – Mortal Bodies in the Millennium This article explains that believers who survive the Tribulation will enter the millennial kingdom with mortal bodies, capable of reproduction and subject to sin. Read it here
- Bible Study Simply – Who Will Survive the Great Tribulation? Discusses Jesus’ teachings in Matthew 24 and implies that some believers will survive the Tribulation and remain on earth. Explore the study
- Peter DeHaan’s Revelation Study – Survivors of the Great Tribulation Focuses on Revelation 7:14 and the identity of those who “come out of the great tribulation,” though it emphasizes spiritual cleansing more than bodily transformation. View the study
- Truthsaves.org – Will Christians Go Through the Tribulation? Offers a perspective that believers will be present during the Tribulation and that the time is shortened for their sake, suggesting survival in earthly form. Read the article
These views are most common in premillennial dispensationalist circles, which interpret Revelation and Matthew 24 literally. Other theological traditions may differ, especially those that emphasize glorified bodies or spiritual resurrection at Christ’s return.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copilot links don't survive getting posted but they exist!
No, that is precisely what the statement says, as I read it. Christ's coming to gather his people cannot take place unless the Apostasy takes place first, which involves the revelation of Antichrist leading to his ultimate destruction at the Coming of Chirst.
Perhaps, the main anti-christ was Herod.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The rapture of the Church happens in the summer, so October, November and December are not viable candidates for the rapture of the Church to happen..
The Light
Well-Known Member
You said the rapture of the Church cannot happen until the Antichrist is revealed. That's not what the Word says.
Then you say Christs coming to gather His people cannot take place until the Antichrist is revealed. Yes, that's what the Word says.
So what is the gathering? The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth. The church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. They are the second rapture that takes place immediately after the great tribulation and before the wrath of God. There are 144,000 first fruits that occur before the second rapture. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation begins. See Revelation 3,4 and 5.
Matthew 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
The fact is you are confusing the rapture of the Church with the gathering from heaven and earth.
I think you are also confusing the great tribulation with the wrath of God, but I am not sure about this.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, the Word does not use the word "Rapture" either. But that isn't the point. What matters is what Paul meant to say, and he said that Jesus' Coming to gather the Church cannot happen unless Antichrist appears 1st. Then Paul explains *when* Christ will come for his Church. And that will be when he comes to *destroy the Man of Sin.* Nothing could be clearer to me personally. But I understand that this position contradicts your own position.
You're unnecessarily complicating a simple statement. The Coming to gather the Church cannot take place unless the Man of Sin appears 1st. Then Christ will come to destroy him, which is when he comes to gather the Church.
I'm not at all confused. Jesus comes to gather his Church, making them immortal. But he also comes to restore Israel, along with many other nations of faith.
The Tribulation is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. God's wrath takes place in varying degrees all through history. At the end of the age it will take the form of Armageddon, designed to defeat Antichristianity.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Of course, if all the church "thought that", then we realize those months would Fit Perfectly With His Truth, eh?
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
(Matthew 24:44 AV)
Amen.- Status
Similar threads
