Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[WPM]

What you had said before is that you think "the angels who sinned" represent the ungodly of Noah's day. Yet, as I've shown you several times now, they are contrasted with the ungodly of Noah's day as a separate example of a group that rebelled against God and will be punished on judgment day. Another group Peter referenced were the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. So, you're not understanding that Peter referenced 3 separate rebellious groups who God punishes (one in 2 Peter 2:4, one in verse 5 and one in verse 6).


Wow! You don't even realize that you're making darkness itself equal to God if you are claiming that it has always existed. Wrong! Only God Himself has always existed. You are terribly mistaken.


LOL! He most certainly did! How can you not discern something so obvious? This is truly unbelievable.

Genesis 1:4 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. [b]So the evening and the morning were the first day.

God said "Let there be light" because there previous was no light. It would make no sense for God to say "let there be light" if light was already there. And it's clearly talking about literal light and literal darkness because it's related directly to day and night.


LOL. That is exactly what I'm trying to do. If you're not being clear, that's not my fault. What you said indicated that the darkness is spiritual. Is that not correct?


LOL. It wasn't there before and then He spoke and it was there. That means He created it. Good grief.


Do you not believe in physical darkness? What in the world is going on here? The darkness and light are spoken of in relation to the literal day and literal night, so it clearly isn't referring to spiritual darkness and spiritual light. What are you going to come up with next, that it's not talking about the creation of the literal heavens and literal earth?


LOL! Says the person who denies clear scripture that says there were angels who sinned and were punished by God for it and will be judged for it on judgment day.


Of course. I didn't say otherwise. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem and are reading things that I'm not saying.


LOL! It wasn't there before and then it was there because He created it! Hello! And then you talk about darkness as a metaphor. So, is that what you're saying the darkness and light are referring to or not? Be clear about what you're saying for once! Do you believe the references to darkness and light in Genesis 1 are references to metaphorical darkness and light or to literal physical darkness and light? It's clearly the latter because it refers to them in reference to day and night.


LOL. Your insults mean less than nothing to me. You are showing little ability to back up your false belief with scripture. You are even resorting to denying clear scriptures like 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6.


LOL. What are you talking about? I never said you deny that literal light and darkness exist, but what I'm trying to discern is your understanding of whether you think the darkness and light referenced in Genesis 1 are literal light and darkness or not.

I am concerned where his next step might be - denying a real God or a real Jesus, denying a real heaven and a real earth. This is going towards Gnosticism.

 

[WPM]

What is funny about what I said? Are you claiming that Hebrews 1:13-14 is referring back to the beginning of creation? Paul was speaking in the present tense there about the angels who were ministering spirits. He said at the time he was writing the angels ARE ministering spirits. He said nothing about whether any of them ever sinned in the past and fell away from God at any point. So, you can't use that passage to support your view. I should be laughing at you.


LOL. Are 2 Peter 2:4 and Judge 6 mythological? Scripture very clearly says there were angels who sinned and they are reserved for judgment. You are the only pushing myths! I have scripture on my side! You are forced to twist scripture after scripture after scripture to keep your false belief afloat!


I address every point, so stop your nonsense. All of God's angels now are spirits sent forth to minister, but that does not mean none of them sinned and rebelled against him long ago. You are trying to apply a present tense passage to the beginning of creation. Another example of how you have to twist scripture to fit your false belief.


Yes, because scripture very clearly says that everything God created was very good. You can't get around that! Obviously, Satan was created. You say he was evil from the beginning of creation, but that can't be because all God created was very good! Why do you deny things like this? You say some of what God created was evil, but scripture says ALL that He created was very good. You do NOT have scripture on your side! You are being very foolish and stubborn about this!

Genesis 1:31 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What don't you understand about this verse? Why do you try to claim that God created some spirit beings like Satan and demons to be evil when scripture says EVERYTHING that He had made "was very good"?


YOU are the one lacking in understanding of the spirit real. YOU are the one denying CLEAR scripture like Genesis 1:31, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6.


When it comes to this particular topic you are the KING of spinning the text!


As I already explained to you, we could say that, in a sense, Adam and Eve were sinners from the beginning even though they didn't literally sin right from the moment they were created. It is similar with Satan. He didn't sin immediately upon being created, but it happened early on to the point where it can be said that He was a liar and murderer from the beginning. Again, scripture says everything God created was very good! Hello?! You do understand that Satan was created, right? You say he was created evil. No! Scripture says EVERYTHING God created was very good. You try to twist scripture to make it say otherwise in relation to Satan and demons.


You are hurling personal insults left and right, so stop being a hypocrite. I have scripture on my side and you don't when it comes to this topic. That is very clear.


That is what the scriptures clearly say! You have to change the text to fit your belief, but I don't!


You can't ever convince me that your false belief is true. That's for certain. YOU are the one with little understanding of the spirit realm, which is highly unfortunate.

He makes Satan out to be as eternal as God is. He makes God the source of evil. He makes God out to be unrighteously say that Satan, demons and evil were (and obviously still are) "very good." What utter nonsense they promote!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am concerned where his next step might be - denying a real God or a real Jesus, denying a real heaven and a real earth. This is going towards Gnosticism.

Right. TS's beliefs originate with Gnosticism and rwb is allowing him to influence his thinking.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He makes Satan out to be as eternal as God is.

Right. He is saying that spiritual darkness has always existed. Does he then believe that Satan and demons have always existed? Clearly, that is not the case. But, it seems that he has to believe that in order to not contradict the fact that everything God created was very good. But, to say that anything or anyone has always existed would make that thing or that being equal with God. It's ridiculous.

He makes God the source of evil. He makes God out to be unrighteously say that Satan, demons and evil were (and obviously still are) "very good." What utter nonsense they promote!

He is denying very clear, straightforward scriptures just like pre-tribs do. He should be embarrassed. Genesis 1:31 very clearly says that everything God created was very good. Yet, he says Satan and demons were created evil, thereby blatantly contradicting Genesis 1:31. And Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 clearly talk about angels who sinned and rebelled against God. He has to deny so much clear scripture to keep his belif afloat, that it reminds me of what pre-tribs do.

 

[WPM]

The messengers that sinned are those whom God calls "sons of God" that lived in earlier days of Adam & Eve, the days of Seth when man
If Satan was created an angel of God, and became Satan of his free will when he disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered. I will not believe Satan is a fallen angel unless I can be shown from the Word of God and not from myths and legends about devils/demons from man of Old that has been passed down for many generations and continues to be perpetrated (indefinitely preserved) to this day!

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, and became sinners of their free will when they disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered.

 

[WPM]

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

God says ALL not some of His angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation. But of Satan it is written is a liar and murderer from the beginning.

The book of Hebrews was likely written between A.D. 64 and 69. Satan and his demons had long-rebelled against God and righteousness by then. That statement therefore related exclusively to the elect angels. The objective Bible student will see that.

 

[WPM]

I would not say man becomes the spirit of messengers of God (angels), or spirit of messengers of Satan (devils/demons), but it should not be denied that humans become so much like the spirits within us, that we are called of our father the Devil, or of our Father God.

Are "angels" the "spirits" within the righteous and the wicked? Basically: are "demons" (or "evil angels") the spirits of the wicked? Are "elect angels" the spirits of the righteous?

 

[WPM]

If Satan was a created angel of God who became Satan through disobedience, why, when speaking of His angels does God say they are SENT, not CREATED, they are ALL ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The prophets were not describing a fallen angel of God who became Satan! They are instructed by God to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon, a man, and a lamentation against king of Tyrus, a man.

It is like debating Pretribbers with you and TS. You totally avoided the evidence.

Isaiah 14:3-11: “And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.”

Isaiah 14 12-17 continues, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

This is speaking about Satan.

• Lucifer lost his exalted place in heaven when he rebelled.
• This talks about a future day when we (the elect) will see the devil for who he really is. That is the day that we will know even as we are known. It is when we are perfected. Satan will be exposed for the fool he is.
• We also see here, Satan will not willingly let his followers go. He keeps them imprisoned.

Ezekiel 28:12-19: “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction.

• First of all, the king of Tyrus was still alive here when this was being spoken.
• Second, the king of Tyrus was definitely not in the Garden of Eden. That would have made him thousands of years old, which is ridiculous.
• Thirdly, the king of Tyrus was not an anointed guardian cherub. He was a human being. Cherubs are angelic creatures.
• Fourthly, the king of Tyrus was not born blameless or sinless. He was born with original sin. He was born depraved.
• Fifthly, the king of Tyrus was not in the mountain of God, a reference to the direct presence of God in heaven, neither was he on Mount Horeb, the earthly mountain of God with Moses.
• Sixthly, there is nowhere the king of Tyrus corrupted the wisdom he had been given by God in the splendour of God’s presence. He was always an out and out heathen king.
• Seventhly, the king of Tyrus was not cast out of God’s holy mount to the ground.

These 2 kings were simply surrogates who Satan used. They were his evil ambassadors. Satan worked through them. He spoke through them. He is still doing the same today.

• Satan was in Eden, the Garden of God (v. 13)
• Satan was an anointed guardian cherub (v. 14)
• Satan was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness was found in him. (v. 15)
• Satan was proud because of his beauty. He corrupted God’s wisdom for the sake of his own prideful splendour.
• Satan was “the anointed” or “covering cherub” who was laid low by pride and expelled by God from heaven before creation. cast to the ground, with the evil angels (v. 17).

 

[rwb]

What you had said before is that you think "the angels who sinned" represent the ungodly of Noah's day. Yet, as I've shown you several times now, they are contrasted with the ungodly of Noah's day as a separate example of a group that rebelled against God and will be punished on judgment day. Another group Peter referenced were the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah. So, you're not understanding that Peter referenced 3 separate rebellious groups who God punishes (one in 2 Peter 2:4, one in verse 5 and one in verse 6).

There is no contrast, they all receive the same fate. Eric, the MESSENGERS who sinned (sons of God), are ungodly humans who lived in the days when man began to call upon the name of the Lord, and the ungodly humans who lived in the days of Noah. God tells us the same fate awaits both ages. The ungodly humans in the early days of creation, along with the ungodly humans in the days of Noah, as well as the ungodly humans who lived in Sodom and Gomorrah are cast down to hell and reserved for judgment. And every other human who is ungodly shall receive the same fate.

None of this is speaking of angels of God being cast down to hell, its talking about ungodly HUMANS, who were initially called 'sons of God' but became ungodly by turning away from the righteousness of God and became evil. That's what Jude means when he writes the human messengers (not spirits) kept not their first estate but left their own habitation. Their first estate is the orderly, or beginning place being messengers of righteousness, their own habitation, is their residence in heaven. They disobeyed God and lusted after the world and became evil, so they are all condemned to suffer the lake of fire that is the second death.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (KJV) For if God spared not the angels (HUMAN MESSENGERS) that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 6-7 (KJV) And the angels (HUMAN MESSENGERS) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Wow! You don't even realize that you're making darkness itself equal to God if you are claiming that it has always existed. Wrong! Only God Himself has always existed. You are terribly mistaken.

I'm not interested in what you believe I might be saying! I'm waiting to hear you biblically refute it.

In the beginning when God created the heaven and earth, the darkness was there and God was there. Whether God created the darkness or not isn't the point. You don't seem to understand that God is THE light! He did not create Himself, because He has always existed.

Genesis 1:1-4 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

The darkness is to be without the Light of God, who is the Light of the world. The Light of God brings life and darkness brings death. God overcame the darkness by speaking Himself (His Light) into the darkness, that His creation, the world, would be filled with life through His Light. The life that God created in six days. God did not do away completely with the darkness but divided the darkness with His Light, calling the Light Day and the darkness Night.

John 1:1-5 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:9 (KJV) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 8:12 (KJV) Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

God, the Holy Spirit was there moving upon the waters, and God the Father was there saying "Let there be light." In the beginning God created heaven and earth, but this does not say that God created the light or darkness. He says only that He speaks and light shined into the darkness. I believe the darkness is a metaphor for the kingdom of all evil and death, and that when God spoke His Light into creation the demonic spirit came out of the darkness symbolized as a serpent, desiring to return all that God created back to darkness and death challenging God for the souls of mankind. Where might we find a text or verse saying invisible spirits (angels & demons) are created? Are not they defined as a current of air, or breeze, Divine God, Christ's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, angel, demon?

Genesis 3:1-5 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:13 (KJV) And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Once the serpent beguiled Eve and they ate of the forbidden tree they knew both good (light & life) and evil (darkness & death). To keep them from eating from the tree of knowledge to live forever in their fallen state of dying, God blocked the way to the tree, and sent them away from the garden of Eden to till the ground until they died and returned to dust. To be understood good and evil cannot be created, they must be experienced, which is why A&E had to be tried before they could know their need for the Savior.

 

[rwb]

Are you claiming that Hebrews 1:13-14 is referring back to the beginning of creation?

Regarding this passage from Hebrews, I posted: Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

To which you replied: "Of course. I didn't say otherwise. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem and are reading things that I'm not saying."

Now you act surprised that all that was created in heaven and earth was created in six days. That includes angels of God He tells us they are ALL ministering spirits, sent to minister to heirs of salvation. But that proves that Satan was not created an angel of God who of his own free will decided to disobey God and became Satan. So you twist and try to manipulate the passage by saying this: "Paul was speaking in the present tense there about the angels who were ministering spirits. He said at the time he was writing the angels ARE ministering spirits. He said nothing about whether any of them ever sinned in the past and fell away from God at any point. So, you can't use that passage to support your view. I should be laughing at you."

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And you wonder why I LOL!

LOL. Are 2 Peter 2:4 and Judge 6 mythological? Scripture very clearly says there were angels who sinned and they are reserved for judgment. You are the only pushing myths! I have scripture on my side! You are forced to twist scripture after scripture after scripture to keep your false belief afloat!

Yes, and angelos is defined - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger. (See John the Baptist for example)

The context of both 2 Peter and Jude refers to HUMAN MESSENGERS, not angels. Judgment falls on humans, and demonic spirits not the spirits of God. It's referring back to the sons of God, human messengers appointed to display the glory and righteousness of God unto all the earth. But failed in their task being drawn away through lusts of the flesh.

All of God's angels now are spirits sent forth to minister, but that does not mean none of them sinned and rebelled against him long ago

Yes, it obviously does mean exactly that! You need the angels of God to be fallen to cling to the myth of Satan being a fallen angel of God.

Yes, because scripture very clearly says that everything God created was very good. You can't get around that! Obviously, Satan was created. You say he was evil from the beginning of creation, but that can't be because all God created was very good! Why do you deny things like this? You say some of what God created was evil, but scripture says ALL that He created was very good. You do NOT have scripture on your side! You are being very foolish and stubborn about this!

Genesis 1:31 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What don't you understand about this verse? Why do you try to claim that God created some spirit beings like Satan and demons to be evil when scripture says EVERYTHING that He had made "was very good"?

Why was the serpent more cunning and crafty in a bad way then every other beast of the field? Can you not understand that God's plan from the foundation of the world was ordained that mankind would be deceived by the serpent, so they could experience good (life & light) and evil (death & darkness). Because good and evil cannot be created but must be experienced or it makes no sense that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God had an answer for the problem of sin and death before He created all things in heaven and earth. The serpent served God's purpose to test mankind that they would come to understand their need of the Savior. So, like the verse tells us "Everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good."

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

John 1:29 (KJV) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

As I already explained to you, we could say that, in a sense, Adam and Eve were sinners from the beginning even though they didn't literally sin right from the moment they were created. It is similar with Satan. He didn't sin immediately upon being created, but it happened early on to the point where it can be said that He was a liar and murderer from the beginning. Again, scripture says everything God created was very good! Hello?! You do understand that Satan was created, right? You say he was created evil. No! Scripture says EVERYTHING God created was very good. You try to twist scripture to make it say otherwise in relation to Satan and demons.

More spinning the clear texts to support a doctrine built on myth, legend, and passed down through the generations by man of Old who had little understanding of the spirit realm. This is total nonsense! "we could say that, in a sense".....whatever

That is what the scriptures clearly say! You have to change the text to fit your belief, but I don't!

The problem for you is that every time you see angelos translated angel, you automatically think it is an angel of God. Search for yourself and you will find angelos is translated messenger as well as angel of God. For instance, speaking of John the Baptist the text calls him a messenger translated from angelos. It was obvious to the translators that John was not an angel, so they correctly translated messenger instead of angel. It is only the Literal Translations that accurately translate angelos throughout 'messenger', because that is how it should be translated according to the Greek Concordance. Then the student of the Word would be able to discern according to the context whether angelos is an invisible spirit (angel or demon), or a human being such as John the Baptist.

Once again, angels of God are not cast into hell to await judgment day. Only messengers of Satan and whosoever remains in unbelief shall be cast into hell to await the second death through the lake of fire.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 1 Corinthians 10:20

I think you are reading into demons as if they are created celestical beings. They are not. In KJV, they are the devils. They are human messengers with spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth. They are the devils that we should not have fellowship with.

Paul is warning these Christians at Corinth, not to have fellowship with demons.


When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Matthew 12:43-44

• I will return to my house from which I came.

A house has a door, a point of access. Demons see humans as a house, a dwelling place for rest.

• When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest

When we are rebellious and sin, we have opened the door to the enemy. If we are stubborn and refuse to repent and turn away from sinful behavior we will be influenced in negative ways by them and it will only get worse over time.

Demons see humans as a house. No... Again you misunderstood about demons or devils.

And I see that you avoid the context, especially the verse 45. The context of Matthew 12 is about when Christ was responding to is the Scribes and Pharisees. For example, these are members of "His" congregation who think they are the seed of Abraham and God's beloved sons of Abraham because they have the name (Israel). They are the corporate or external believers of the congregation. They are completely oblivious to the fact that they are "clouds without water and God could raise up children of Abraham from the stones" (Luke 3:4-8). In other words, the parable is about God's people who have deceived themselves into believing that they are of the Spirit truly God's people. That's why the parable uses the language of the unclean spirit going out of a man. The unclean spirit being removed is the language of being delivered from the power of the Devil. The question is how? By the permanent Spirit of Christ, or by their humanistic joy in expectation? For God says all Israel is not of Israel--meaning there are two types of Israel, but only one that is truly heir.

Matthew 12:43-45

• "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
• Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
• Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."

An unclean spirit that leaves a man and comes back necessarily means that this man was never saved in the first place, because the seal or security of the Holy Spirit is unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). It's not a temporary thing that can be cast away. Even as Judas was not truly saved and thus never lost his salvation, he never truly was saved. And yet he was part of the twelve apostles, but not a true son or chosen Elect of God. He was a son of perdition or destruction.

Likewise, Christ is demonstrating that these Scribes and Pharisees are indeed part of God's house but are not the remnants that are to be delivered. Their euphoria in their temporary earthly standing as being of Israel is what comes from the joy of a sense of expectation. Christ's message here is not only for them but for the congregation today as well. He is talking about professed Christians too who always had the spirit of disobedience for they are the devils. It demonstrates/illustrates that there are professing children of God abiding within His house that isn't there by the Spirit of God and so don't really belong there. They are empty shells without the Spirit of God within, which is why in the parable the unclean spirit could "come back" to dwell within that man. Because the Spirit of God was not dwelling there. Never! This is proved because the two spirits could not biblically dwell there together as there is no agreement. That man was simply superficially swept clean and garnished, but not Spiritually swept clean. That's why these Scribes and Pharisees became fallen messengers or devils--because they were never truly redeemed.

Jude 1:12-13

• "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
• Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

Stars or messengers without light, clouds without water, fruit that is bad whose tree is to be plucked up by the roots. These are people of the congregation who don't understand that a tree is known by its fruits (works), and a star is known by its light! Remember that the context is about Christ casting out devils, and the Pharisees accusing Him of casting out devils by Beelzebub (the prince of the devils). So the context is of Christ "saving people," which the miraculous sign of casting out devils "represented." Then Christ speaks of these wicked people accusing Him of the Devil's work and that they will never have that sin forgiven because it is the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. They didn't understand that if Christ cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God had indeed come to the people of Israel. Jesus is equating His casting out demons with the promise of salvation and deliverance of Israel and the restoration of the Kingdom. But in their unbelief, they didn't like His words and they thought that as men of letters they knew better, and were secure as Israel. Then Christ calls them a generation or family of vipers and saying they were evil to ask for a sign, and that there would be no sign given to them "except" the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mathew 12:40

• "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

So there is the sign to His congregation--that Christ Himself would be persecuted and killed and resurrected after three days in the earth. It is in this context that Jesus starts telling this parable of the swept or cleaned house that the evil spirit returns to. For example, He's talking about the people of the nation of Israel who have an outward shell or form of Godliness but have no Spirit of God within that form. People who don't have the faith of Christ that would enable them to endure where the unclean spirit could not return. Selah! Thus the message is that they will ultimately be judged more harshly for their betrayal and apostasy. That's the message of "seven more unclean spirits" coming to dwell, signifying the man is worse and will be judged accordingly. The parable details people professing to be of the covenant of Israel, cleansed and adorned, while in reality, they have fallen away from the faith and the commandments of God. They all "profess" with their mouths that they love God and believe in the promise of the Messiah, but their love is not rooted in Him. Therefore they never have been cleansed by, nor adorned or beautified in the spiritual sense, only in the superficial sense. They had that shell or outward form of Godliness, but none of the power of Godliness. Even as the apostle Paul mourned for his people knowing that they were outwardly the people of God, but who were not truly the sons of God Spiritually.

Romans 9:3-6

• "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
• Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
• Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
• Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

(Continue to next post due to space)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Contiune from previous post)

And there is the lesson that God is teaching. A tree is known by its fruits, not by what it might call itself. Israel isn't Israel because it says so, but because God says so and confirms it with the blood of the promise made. They claimed to be those made clean by God because they were Israel, while in reality they had fallen away into apostasy, had unclean spirits, and were lost in bondage to sin. They were Israel in name only, just as many professed Christians in the church today are Israel and Christians in name only. But their abominations make them dwelling places of unclean spirits. The home of the devils. The parable illustrates their outward appearance and their inward apostasy (Revelation 17:4). They were falling away from what they once were because of congregational declension. The context and the main occurrences of the parable tell the tale plainly. They were only superficially and temporarily forsaken by the unclean spirit, and their bodies were superficially swept clean and beautified with the precious things of God. And the proof is that the man's unclean spirit came back and that man was worse than he was before the spirit was temporarily cast aside. Selah! We can see this systematically as we read the verses pertaining to the man whom the unclean spirit left.

1a. The unclean spirit goes out of a man but he is only cleansed temporarily of this evil by his preliminary joy in the expectation.
1b. The unclean spirit and the man are in the wilderness where there is no rest BECAUSE He is not in the rest of Christ.
2a. The unclean spirit returns back to the man He had temporarily gone out of.
2b. When the unclean spirit "of that man" returns to him, the man is not fulfilled even though his house is swept cleaned, and adorned.
3a. The man is now worse than he was before the unclean spirit left because in abandoning Christ his uncleanness is multiplied.
3b. Thus the man is now much worse than he was before he professed Christ and was superficially cleansed of evil.
3c. The conclusion of Christ is that this is how it will be with this evil generation or family that forsakes Him. It's blasphemy.

They claimed to be waiting for their Savior, but when He came they originally had joy in Him but that wore off quickly once He spoke and they didn't like what He had to say (much as the church today when they do not like to hear the Elect (Two Witnesses) say, and so rejected the truth of Him. So what is this parable teaching? It is teaching the very same thing as 2nd Peter 2:20 which we should consider wisely:

2nd Peter 2:20-22

• "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
• For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
• But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Selah! There's no mystery, it's not salvation lost because as the dogs and swine that they were before they came in among believers, they were never changed into new creatures (2nd Corinthians 5:17). They never became new creations in Christ. And so dogs and swine they continued to be. Again, the man was only superficially cleaned and adorned. This is basically the same thing that Christ taught in the parable of the seeds as well. The alleged clean man simply could not endure in Christ because he had no root in Christ.

Matthew 13:5-6

• "Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
• And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."

There is the "portrait" of the unclean spirit going out of the man and that man walking through dry places seeking rest and not finding any. Therefore the unclean spirit returns to him because that's his home! Selah! Note it couldn't return if the Spirit of Christ was actually dwelling in the man because he would have been totally defeated and overcome. But he did return, signifying Christ was not there. I say that because some people use this to claim people can lose their salvation or dealing with celestial beings, but this is not true. The sun beat down on that man and he couldn't withstand the tribulation and it scorched him because he had no root (which is Christ). So when the seed sprang up, because it had not much soil and was without root, it could do nothing but wither away. It was because he was without Christ. The same as the man whose house was swept cleaned and adorned, but the unclean spirit came back and he was even worse than before because that man was without Christ that would have sealed him unto the day of redemption. That is the principle God repeats throughout scripture. When you hear the word and receive it, but return to that unclean state, it is because you failed the trial/tribulation/test/persecution/etc., regarding endurance. It is not because you lost your salvation or cleanness in Christ. They have never truly had the cleanness of Christ in the first place!

Matthew 13:20-21

• "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
• Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."

Those who do not endure after taking on Christ's name are those who are offended by Christ in one way or another. Either by rejection of His commands, inability to accept His words, rebellion against His laws, lust of the flesh, or a hundred other reasons for failing. This is the message of the parable of the unclean spirit leaving a man, and the man not enduring and having that uncleanness return, and his state after rejecting Christ, worse than if he had never professed Christ.

As it is written:

2nd Peter 2:21-22

• "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
• But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

That's the meaning of the language of 7 other unclean spirits coming to dwell with the man where he is worse than before.

2nd Peter 2:2

• "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

 

[TribulationSigns]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

There was literal, physical darkness on the face of the deep and then God created physical light that literally shined into the literal darkness. The references to darkness and light in that passage are in relation to the creating of the heavens and the earth. I'm sure you would agree that it's talking about the literal heavens and the literal, physical planet earth there in Genesis 1. Do you think it's talking about God creating spiritual light there or physical light that shined into the physical darkness that allowed the things that He was creating to be physically visible?

Readers,

Genesis 1:3-5

• "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
• And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
• And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

When the Bible text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual sense, we see God is clearly creating very LITERAL light on Day ONE, and establishing very LITERAL days and nights, a separation of both. Days and nights which He consequently made permanent by placing a very LITERAL sun in place of the source of light on Day FOUR in the very LITERAL heavens that the very LITERAL earth would revolve around.

Genesis 1:15-19

• "And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
• And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
• And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
• And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
• And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

I believe that God created this Earth with the "appearance of age," just as Christ in His first miracle of creation made wine from purification water instantly, having the appearance of a finely aged wine. It normally would take years to create the finest wine, but God did it instantly. We saw how instantly Christ made fishes that never swam in water and breads to feed people. Indeed, just as He created Adam with the appearance of age, as a grown man in that one day. And the same with this world of ours, our sun, and the stars in the heavens:

Hebrews 11:3

• "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

People, do not be deceived by the scientists with their big bang theory and dating devices, things are truly not as they may appear to be. Understanding this requires the faith of Christ to believe in the ultimate authority of the Word of God alone over the words of men. God forbid that we would justify ourselves by accepting man's declarations over God's Word, Romans 3:4. Only a fool would think that God created the stars and then relaxed for a billion years waiting for its light to reach the Earth. His God is "his idea of science" and doesn't comprehend how a God could create the stars and have its light in transit instantly to shine upon the earth regardless how far the stars are from Earth. He is God after all, so that He doesn't need to follow man's laws or theories of the universe.

He spoke the Sun into existence as the greater light to rule the day, and the Moon, which reflects the light of the Sun, as the lesser light to rule the night—along with the stars—instantly on Day Four! Yet these celestial bodies also carry deep spiritual significance.

The Sun, in Scripture, represents Christ, the true Light of the world. The Moon, which reflects the light of the Sun, symbolizes the congregation that reflects the light of Christ. The stars represent the messengers, or people, within that congregation.

This symbolism helps us understand the vision of the woman better in Revelation 12—representing the congregation of Israel before the Cross and the New Testament congregation after the Cross. Sin is often pictured as nakedness in scripture (Revelation 3:17-18), but when we, as a true congregation, are clothed in the light of Christ, then we walk not in darkness because we are clothed in this righteousness of Christ. The moon under her feet is again symbolic of the light. Here it is illustrating the light directing her steps so she sees where she is going that she'll not stumble in darkness. The moon is the reflected light from the Sun to guide us in darkness. And the stars were likewise instituted as the ordinances of the night given to light the darkness, Jeremiah 31:34. The 12 stars are indicative of the messengers or servants of this congregation Israel. Children of God are as stars because when Christ dwell within them they take on the responsibility to bring the light of the Lord to the World. For example, they, not so-called angels, are vessels or messengers carrying that light in darkness. We are in Christ, and He is in us, therefore we are lesser lights to light the earth. This is why stars are used in scripture to symbolize the servants or messengers of the Lord.

Therefore, when we read in Matthew 24 or Revelation about the sun being darkened, the moon ceasing to give its light or turning to blood, and the stars falling from heaven, these signs symbolize that the congregation has fallen into apostasy and desolation. She no longer reflects Christ’s light, for she has become spiritually naked and stumbles in darkness because the truth is no longer in her.

Her fallen stars—not angels, but false prophets and false christs—have stripped her of spiritual purity and made her desolate, as described in Revelation 17:16. Thus, we understand that Christ was foretelling the fall of the New Testament congregation that would take place prior to His Second Coming.

 

[rwb]

When the Bible text is read in a normal, grammatical, contextual sense, we see God is clearly creating very LITERAL light on Day ONE, and establishing very LITERAL days and nights, a separation of both. Days and nights which He consequently made permanent by placing a very LITERAL sun in place of the source of light on Day FOUR in the very LITERAL heavens that the very LITERAL earth would revolve around.

Good to hear from you again TS!

Yes, the light and darkness are literal. Both symbolizing the True Light that brings life to the world, and also the darkness symbolizing death the seeks to overcome the True Light. The spiritual battle between the forces of Light and the forces of Darkness began from the beginning of creation and will not end until the last day of this age.

 

[JLB]

I think you are reading into demons as if they are created celestical beings. They are not. In KJV, they are the devils. They are human messengers with spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth. They are the devils that we should not have fellowship with.

Demons are spirit beings; unclean spirits.


Not human spirits.

 

[rwb]

Demons are spirit beings; unclean spirits.

Yes, and unclean spirits have never been ministering spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. That's how we know that Satan was not created an angel of God who chose to disobey God and become the unclean spirit, Satan.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[JLB]

Yes, and unclean spirits have never been ministering spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation.

‘Of course not. Who said they were?

 

[Davidpt]

I think you are reading into demons as if they are created celestical beings. They are not. In KJV, they are the devils. They are human messengers with spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth. They are the devils that we should not have fellowship with.



Demons see humans as a house. No... Again you misunderstood about demons or devils.

Hmmm… so that explains why I’ve been misunderstanding this passage all along.

Mark 5:8–13 (KJV) For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea (they were about two thousand) and were choked in the sea.

According to your interpretation, I guess it would actually read like this:

For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou human messengers with the spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth.
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many human messengers with the spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth. And all the human messengers with the spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth, besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

If The Twilight Zone was still a thing and filming new episodes, that might make for a good episode, though.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hmmm… so that explains why I’ve been misunderstanding this passage all along.

Mark 5:8–13 (KJV) For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea (they were about two thousand) and were choked in the sea.

According to your interpretation, I guess it would actually read like this:

For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou human messengers with the spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth.
And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many human messengers with the spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth. And all the human messengers with the spirit of Satan, those who are not saved and resist hearing the truth, besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

Do you even know what the swine of Mark 5 signifies in Scripture? As I wrote earlier with additional information, if you receive it:

"2nd Peter 2:20-22

• "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
• For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
• But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Selah! There's no mystery, it's not salvation lost because as the dogs and swine that they were before they came in among believers, they were never changed into new creatures (2nd Corinthians 5:17)! The dogs and swine represents those who have NEVER become a new creations in Christ. For Mark 5 parable, Christ is teaching us with a spiritual picture about many PROFESSED BELIEVERS, feed upon HIS MOUNTAIN (congregation) who were never truly born again among the Elect and they are the one who will end up in the lake of fire which the swine jumped into sea SIGNIFIES! Spiritual discernment! Not a teaching lesson for us on how to be an exorcist to cast a spiritual being out of man. Selah!

And do you ever wondered why did God tell us "about 2,000" of pigs into the sea? It has spiritual signification that calls for our understanding what Christ talked about! Just like when we read the story in:

John 21:7–8:

• Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
  And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.

It is not a teaching lesson on how far Peter physical swam but it has spiritual signification. For example:

In Scripture, numbers often hold symbolic meaning.

• 200 can represent the complete or full period of labor or service under divine great commission.
• The boat represents the Church, still in the sea (symbolizing the world), doing the work of evangelism — casting the net and drawing in souls.
• The shore (where Christ stands) represents eternity or the completion — the point where the labor of the Church ends and fellowship with Christ is fully restored.

So, the 200 cubits could picture the distance (or time period) between Christ’s departure and His final gathering of His Church — the span of the Great Commission, from His resurrection until the end of the age (Matthew 28:19–20).

And note carefully that Peter who was naked. Why? It is a spiritual picture that his nakedness represents the believer's spiritual condition apart from Christ's righteousness. Just as Adam realized his nakedness after sin (Genesis 3:7), Peter, too, was spiritually exposed - ashamed of his past denial of Christ. his physical state MIRRORSA his inner awareness of needing to be "covered" before approaching the Lord. Now, the "fisher's coat" signifies the robe of righteousness, or covering oneself with Christ's garment of salvation, Isaiah 61:10. He jumping into the sea signifies love and faith in Action. The sea represents the world or trails, no longer holds him back. His action shows that when clothed in righteousness, faith boldly crosses all barriers to reach christ. He no longer hides in shame; he RUNS (or SWAM) to reconciliation. Not waiting for the Church as a whole to “arrive” at the end, but individually longing to be with Christ now. That is the whole point of what Christ wanted us to understand what the story is really about.

See what I am saying? So figure out yourself and pray for wisdom on what does 2,000 swine the Lord has in mind was about?

@rwb

 

[rwb]

‘Of course not. Who said they were?

If you've been following this discussion, you'll find that some here believe that Satan was created an angel of God, before of his own free will he chose to disobey God and became the unclean spirit, Satan.