Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[JLB]

If you've been following this discussion, you'll find that some here believe that Satan was created an angel of God, before of his own free will he chose to disobey God and became the unclean spirit, Satan.

Lucifer who is now Satan (adversary; enemy) is an angel.

He was created by God as an angel. One of three archangels.


Demons are unclean spirits.


These refers to spirits from an “unclean” union between the sons of God and the daughters of men.

 

[rwb]

Lucifer who is now Satan (adversary; enemy) is an angel.

He was created by God as an angel. One of three archangels.


Demons are unclean spirits.


These refers to spirits from an “unclean” union between the sons of God and the daughters of men.

Yes, that's the common mythological legend passed down by men of Old from generation to generation the on-going argument ensues.

The name Lucifer is mentioned only one time in the Bible. The name means brightness and morning star. The name is used in reference to the king of Babylon, a man, it is not a reference to Satan. The king had clearly become motivated through Satanic powers of evil after having been lifted up by God to be the king. God had showered blessings and strength in battle against his enemies, but the kings heart became proud, causing him to succumb to the wiles of Satan.

Only one person in Scripture is called, the morning star, bright and morning star, and that is Christ alone. (Rev 2:28; 22:16)

The king of Babylon, a man is being called Lucifer to indicate how man was created in the likeness and image of God to be the bearers of the Light of God unto a world in darkness. Calling him Lucifer was what he should have been in his position as king of Babylon. But instead, the name reminds the king of how greatly he had fallen. His sin of pride would utterly destroy the king and cause him to be cast down into the pit (grave) in darkness without hope.

Isaiah 14:4 (KJV) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:13-15 (KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 14:16 (KJV) They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

 

[WPM]

I would not say man becomes the spirit of messengers of God (angels), or spirit of messengers of Satan (devils/demons), but it should not be denied that humans become so much like the spirits within us, that we are called of our father the Devil, or of our Father God.

Are "angels" the "spirits" within the righteous and the wicked? Basically: are "demons" (or "evil angels") the spirits of the wicked? Are "elect angels" the spirits of the righteous?

 

[WPM]

The messengers that sinned are those whom God calls "sons of God" that lived in earlier days of Adam & Eve, the days of Seth when man
If Satan was created an angel of God, and became Satan of his free will when he disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered. I will not believe Satan is a fallen angel unless I can be shown from the Word of God and not from myths and legends about devils/demons from man of Old that has been passed down for many generations and continues to be perpetrated (indefinitely preserved) to this day!

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, and became sinners of their free will when they disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered.

 

[WPM]

Do you even know what the swine of Mark 5 signifies in Scripture? As I wrote earlier with additional information, if you receive it:

"2nd Peter 2:20-22

• "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
• For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
• But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Selah! There's no mystery, it's not salvation lost because as the dogs and swine that they were before they came in among believers, they were never changed into new creatures (2nd Corinthians 5:17)! The dogs and swine represents those who have NEVER become a new creations in Christ. For Mark 5 parable, Christ is teaching us with a spiritual picture about many PROFESSED BELIEVERS, feed upon HIS MOUNTAIN (congregation) who were never truly born again among the Elect and they are the one who will end up in the lake of fire which the swine jumped into sea SIGNIFIES! Spiritual discernment! Not a teaching lesson for us on how to be an exorcist to cast a spiritual being out of man. Selah!

And do you ever wondered why did God tell us "about 2,000" of pigs into the sea? It has spiritual signification that calls for our understanding what Christ talked about! Just like when we read the story in:

John 21:7–8:

• Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
  And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.

It is not a teaching lesson on how far Peter physical swam but it has spiritual signification. For example:

In Scripture, numbers often hold symbolic meaning.

• 200 can represent the complete or full period of labor or service under divine great commission.
• The boat represents the Church, still in the sea (symbolizing the world), doing the work of evangelism — casting the net and drawing in souls.
• The shore (where Christ stands) represents eternity or the completion — the point where the labor of the Church ends and fellowship with Christ is fully restored.

So, the 200 cubits could picture the distance (or time period) between Christ’s departure and His final gathering of His Church — the span of the Great Commission, from His resurrection until the end of the age (Matthew 28:19–20).

And note carefully that Peter who was naked. Why? It is a spiritual picture that his nakedness represents the believer's spiritual condition apart from Christ's righteousness. Just as Adam realized his nakedness after sin (Genesis 3:7), Peter, too, was spiritually exposed - ashamed of his past denial of Christ. his physical state MIRRORSA his inner awareness of needing to be "covered" before approaching the Lord. Now, the "fisher's coat" signifies the robe of righteousness, or covering oneself with Christ's garment of salvation, Isaiah 61:10. He jumping into the sea signifies love and faith in Action. The sea represents the world or trails, no longer holds him back. His action shows that when clothed in righteousness, faith boldly crosses all barriers to reach christ. He no longer hides in shame; he RUNS (or SWAM) to reconciliation. Not waiting for the Church as a whole to “arrive” at the end, but individually longing to be with Christ now. That is the whole point of what Christ wanted us to understand what the story is really about.

See what I am saying? So figure out yourself and pray for wisdom on what does 2,000 swine the Lord has in mind was about?

@rwb

Are "angels" the "spirits" within the righteous and the wicked? Basically: are "demons" (or "evil angels") the spirits of the wicked? Are "elect angels" the spirits of the righteous?

 

[WPM]

Yes, that's the common mythological legend passed down by men of Old from generation to generation the on-going argument ensues.

The name Lucifer is mentioned only one time in the Bible. The name means brightness and morning star. The name is used in reference to the king of Babylon, a man, it is not a reference to Satan. The king had clearly become motivated through Satanic powers of evil after having been lifted up by God to be the king. God had showered blessings and strength in battle against his enemies, but the kings heart became proud, causing him to succumb to the wiles of Satan.

Only one person in Scripture is called, the morning star, bright and morning star, and that is Christ alone. (Rev 2:28; 22:16)

The king of Babylon, a man is being called Lucifer to indicate how man was created in the likeness and image of God to be the bearers of the Light of God unto a world in darkness. Calling him Lucifer was what he should have been in his position as king of Babylon. But instead, the name reminds the king of how greatly he had fallen. His sin of pride would utterly destroy the king and cause him to be cast down into the pit (grave) in darkness without hope.

Isaiah 14:4 (KJV) That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:13-15 (KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 14:16 (KJV) They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

It is like debating Pretribbers with you and TS. You totally avoided the evidence.

Isaiah 14:3-11: “And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.”

Isaiah 14 12-17 continues, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

This is speaking about Satan.

• Lucifer lost his exalted place in heaven when he rebelled.
• This talks about a future day when we (the elect) will see the devil for who he really is. That is the day that we will know even as we are known. It is when we are perfected. Satan will be exposed for the fool he is.
• We also see here, Satan will not willingly let his followers go. He keeps them imprisoned.

Ezekiel 28:12-19: “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction.

• First of all, the king of Tyrus was still alive here when this was being spoken.
• Second, the king of Tyrus was definitely not in the Garden of Eden. That would have made him thousands of years old, which is ridiculous.
• Thirdly, the king of Tyrus was not an anointed guardian cherub. He was a human being. Cherubs are angelic creatures.
• Fourthly, the king of Tyrus was not born blameless or sinless. He was born with original sin. He was born depraved.
• Fifthly, the king of Tyrus was not in the mountain of God, a reference to the direct presence of God in heaven, neither was he on Mount Horeb, the earthly mountain of God with Moses.
• Sixthly, there is nowhere the king of Tyrus corrupted the wisdom he had been given by God in the splendour of God’s presence. He was always an out and out heathen king.
• Seventhly, the king of Tyrus was not cast out of God’s holy mount to the ground.

These 2 kings were simply surrogates who Satan used. They were his evil ambassadors. Satan worked through them. He spoke through them. He is still doing the same today.

• Satan was in Eden, the Garden of God (v. 13)
• Satan was an anointed guardian cherub (v. 14)
• Satan was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness was found in him. (v. 15)
• Satan was proud because of his beauty. He corrupted God’s wisdom for the sake of his own prideful splendour.
• Satan was “the anointed” or “covering cherub” who was laid low by pride and expelled by God from heaven before creation. cast to the ground, with the evil angels (v. 17).

 

[TribulationSigns]

Lucifer who is now Satan (adversary; enemy) is an angel.

He was created by God as an angel. One of three archangels.

Not a chance!
The meaning of Lucifer [heylel], in Hebrew is shinning. It is from the root Hebrew word [halal], literally to be clear, and by extension that which is transparent or has a shine. I do not believe that it is really as complicated as many people would make it out to be. Here is KJV and a near literal reading of this of verse 12 sentence would be:

Isa 14:12-14
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven shinning son of the morning! Thou art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

It's an spiritual allegory of sorts, the portent of which is to illustrate the Satanic falling away of those who have rule over God's people and did corrupt the nations, prefigured as Babylon, and their king as Satan. They are symbolized even as stars and their king as Satan that is falling from his place in the kingdom of heaven which is the congregation:

Isaiah 14:13

• "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

It is man, ruled by his own rebellious spirit, Satan, as he sits to rule in the congregation. There really is no contradiction here or confusion in him being called a "Shinning son of the Morning" fallen from heaven. He is not pictured as the Morning Star, Christ, Himself. He is pictured or prefigured as the son of the Morning Star. In other words, a son of God in the external sense. Like professed believers! Not literal angel since the angel was never considered as son of God or Morning Star (Christ). And if we search through scripture carefully we will learn that all "professing Christians" are spoken of symbolically or allegorically as being stars in heaven. Daniel and Revelation are some clear examples. So the only problem with this language of Isaiah is that which some people choose to create for themselves, like you, WPM and Spiritual Israelities, thinking he must be a created angelic being. The Lord speaks through scripture in parables, allegories, figures, and with symbolism. When we profess Christ we are called sons of God/Morning Star because He is the Son of God. Period! When we profess Christ we are called Messengers because Christ is the Chief Messenger which the word, "archangel" means! When we profess Christ we are called Israel because Christ is the Israel of God. When we profess Christ we are called stars because Christ is the Morning Star. When we profess Christ we are called the light of the world because Christ is the Light of the world. There is no great mystery here. God is prefiguring a falling away. And it's no mystery that the language sounds a lot like that found in 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 and in Revelation Chapter 18 of the fall of Babylon (The Church).

Isaiah 14:12-15

• "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
• For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
• I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
• Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

For example, the shinning star falling from the kingdom of heaven because he wanted to be like God is symbolism for those professing Christ, those in the congregation that is Spiritually Babylon, who have fallen away (Apostasy) and who ruled in God's house "as if" they were God. They forsook His word and counciled according to what seemed right in their own eyes. They corrupted God's word with their own definitions and explanations. As such, they are ruled of their own spirit of disobedience, Satan, whom they serve as their king or father! And are as stars falling from heaven to the earth. They made themselves to be as God. Even as Old Testament Israel did, and even as many are doing today! They are the sons of the morning, the stars falling from heaven. God hath given judgement to His elect.

Selah!

Demons are unclean spirits.

Yes. Unclean spirits of MAN!

These refers to spirits from an “unclean” union between the sons of God and the daughters of men.

Sigh. So now you actually believe that some spiritual evil beings — unclean spirits or demons, if you insist were created by God — were once “sons of God”? And they supposedly came down from heaven with the power to impregnate beautiful women? Only the beautiful ones, not the unattractive? Really? LOL!

This is the kind of cartoon-level Sunday school doctrine that passes for “deep revelation” these days. So-called demons aren’t fallen angels running around having babies with humans. They’re men possessed by their own evil spirit — their rebellious, disobedient nature that rejects God’s law and joins themselves with unbelieving women outside the congregation of God.

That’s it. Nothing mystical, nothing romantic — just plain rebellion dressed up as revelation.

@rwb

 

[WPM]

Not a chance!
The meaning of Lucifer [heylel], in Hebrew is shinning. It is from the root Hebrew word [halal], literally to be clear, and by extension that which is transparent or has a shine. I do not believe that it is really as complicated as many people would make it out to be. Here is KJV and a near literal reading of this of verse 12 sentence would be:

Isa 14:12-14
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven shinning son of the morning! Thou art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

It's an spiritual allegory of sorts, the portent of which is to illustrate the Satanic falling away of those who have rule over God's people and did corrupt the nations, prefigured as Babylon, and their king as Satan. They are symbolized even as stars and their king as Satan that is falling from his place in the kingdom of heaven which is the congregation:

Isaiah 14:13

• "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

It is man, ruled by his own rebellious spirit, Satan, as he sits to rule in the congregation. There really is no contradiction here or confusion in him being called a "Shinning son of the Morning" fallen from heaven. He is not pictured as the Morning Star, Christ, Himself. He is pictured or prefigured as the son of the Morning Star. In other words, a son of God in the external sense. Like professed believers! Not literal angel since the angel was never considered as son of God or Morning Star (Christ). And if we search through scripture carefully we will learn that all "professing Christians" are spoken of symbolically or allegorically as being stars in heaven. Daniel and Revelation are some clear examples. So the only problem with this language of Isaiah is that which some people choose to create for themselves, like you, WPM and Spiritual Israelities, thinking he must be a created angelic being. The Lord speaks through scripture in parables, allegories, figures, and with symbolism. When we profess Christ we are called sons of God/Morning Star because He is the Son of God. Period! When we profess Christ we are called Messengers because Christ is the Chief Messenger which the word, "archangel" means! When we profess Christ we are called Israel because Christ is the Israel of God. When we profess Christ we are called stars because Christ is the Morning Star. When we profess Christ we are called the light of the world because Christ is the Light of the world. There is no great mystery here. God is prefiguring a falling away. And it's no mystery that the language sounds a lot like that found in 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 and in Revelation Chapter 18 of the fall of Babylon (The Church).

Isaiah 14:12-15

• "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
• For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
• I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
• Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

For example, the shinning star falling from the kingdom of heaven because he wanted to be like God is symbolism for those professing Christ, those in the congregation that is Spiritually Babylon, who have fallen away (Apostasy) and who ruled in God's house "as if" they were God. They forsook His word and counciled according to what seemed right in their own eyes. They corrupted God's word with their own definitions and explanations. As such, they are ruled of their own spirit of disobedience, Satan, whom they serve as their king or father! And are as stars falling from heaven to the earth. They made themselves to be as God. Even as Old Testament Israel did, and even as many are doing today! They are the sons of the morning, the stars falling from heaven. God hath given judgement to His elect.

Selah!


Yes. Unclean spirits of MAN!



Sigh. So now you actually believe that some spiritual evil beings — unclean spirits or demons, if you insist were created by God — were once “sons of God”? And they supposedly came down from heaven with the power to impregnate beautiful women? Only the beautiful ones, not the unattractive? Really? LOL!

This is the kind of cartoon-level Sunday school doctrine that passes for “deep revelation” these days. So-called demons aren’t fallen angels running around having babies with humans. They’re men possessed by their own evil spirit — their rebellious, disobedient nature that rejects God’s law and joins themselves with unbelieving women outside the congregation of God.

That’s it. Nothing mystical, nothing romantic — just plain rebellion dressed up as revelation.

@rwb

More avoidance, more Christdedephianism, more nonsense.

 

[JLB]

Not a chance!
The meaning of Lucifer [heylel], in Hebrew is shinning. It is from the root Hebrew word [halal], literally to be clear, and by extension that which is transparent or has a shine. I do not believe that it is really as complicated as many people would make it out to be. Here is KJV and a near literal reading of this of verse 12 sentence would be:

Isa 14:12-14
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven shinning son of the morning! Thou art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

What other angel would say was fallen from heaven?

Satan is that angel. He was Lucifier the shining one, then he because Satan, the adversary.

It's not that hard.


And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Revelation 12:3-4


And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9

 

[TribulationSigns]

What other angel would say was fallen from heaven?

What other angel? Learn how to quote Scripture yourself.

Satan is that angel.

No. Where in the Bible does it say this? Or did you and Scott speculates as usual?

He was Lucifier the shining one, then he because Satan, the adversary.

It's not that hard.

Chuckle! Can't you read? What is so hard to believe is that you don't really read your Bible.

Let read what your Bible says:

Isa 14:12-14 (NKJV)
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Did you overlooked the word, "son?" Did you understand who is morning, morning star, or the shinning here? No, God did NOT say that Lucifer is the morning himself or the shining one. He is the son "OF" the morning. Your interpretation is wrong.

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Revelation 12:3-4

Rev 12:1-3 (KJV)
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Look, the entire book of Revelation is a collage of cryptic numbers, figures, imagery, enigmatic representations, symbolism, analogies and metaphors. So you need to find the true interpretation by comparing Scripture with Scripture, SPIRITUAL DISCERNED! And of course common sense that you seems to lack of.

For example, if you insist that the the stars of heaven are literally angels that you believe Satan has deceived, then that means the woman has a crown of twelve angels? LOL!

No, these 12 stars as woman's crown are representing the messengers of the congregation of Israel. The number 12 in scripture often specifically identifies with the Lord's congregation. The 12 tribes which represented the Old Covenant with Israel, and the 12 Apostles representing the New Covenant with israel. They all symbolize the same thing. That these are the messengers or Servants of God in the Kingdom of heaven. Not angels!

Therefore, it was the human messengers of the Old Testament congregation under Satan control. God was talking about professed Jews of Israel at that time when Christ was about to be born.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9

Again, what heaven is this? Heaven where God sits? Or the congregation on Earth as the kingdom of Heaven? Who is Michael and his messengers? Who is Dragon's messengers? What do they fought with? Didn't the Jews lost their kingdom representative that signifies Dragon and his Messengers being cast out of the Kingdom of Heaven at the Cross. It did not take place in the beginning before God created Adam and Eve as you think.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, and became sinners of their free will when they disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered.

More like no study of Scripture because the doctrine is inconsistent and contradictory at every turn. It's in total disharmony with everything else in the Bible. Look... the Serpent itself was cursed to symbolize the unclean spirit of man. That's why God told Israel they were forbidden to eat whatsoever goes about upon the belly (Leviticus 11:42) because that represented an unclean animal, signifying unsaved man. You need to look it up in Acts 10:14; Acts 10:28; etc.! When we become saved, God has cleansed what was once unclean in the Spirit of Christ.

Micah 7:16-17

• "The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
• They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee."

They lick the dust "LIKE" a serpent because they have that cursed unclean spirit! Selah! Here is the Serpent God cursed in Genesis to go upon its belly that the dust should be its food all the days of thy life. Hello?! Or are you in denial or coming up with more speculations or stupid questions. It's unsaved man that is at enmity with the Woman! Not literal angels, demons, or your vision of 'celestical beings!" Likewise God called the Serpent subtil because the mind is a crafty and cunning part of mankind. It is what rationalizes away dishonesty, lawlessness and disobedience. This is why the Serpent in the Garden was called wily or subtil (cunning, crafty). Sin starts in the deep recesses of the mind through the spirit eyes of justification and rationalization. Not through a literal snake.

2nd Corinthians 11:3

• "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, SO your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

The word, "so", or [houto] "in-this manner" the mind is corrupted. In other words, that's the way it is corrupted. The serpent worked within Eve's mind! Just as he worked in our mind before we were born again! It wasn't a angelic being, sorry to disappoint you! It was her own spirit in lust that fells into corruption and leads her (and us) astray. Go look it up in James chapter 1 yourself. Moreover see in this passage that the Apostle equates the Serpent beguiling or deceiving Eve to corruption of the mind from simplicity. Same scenario we see again of the corruption beginning in the mind's eye and leading to sin. Consistently we see the same portrait of the working of sin. The carnal lust Eve had came from the corruption in her mind so that mankind lost that virgin purity through their own lust! Not through a one-on-one chat with "Cheshire" snake or a fallen angel from heaven. No, bud, it was her own mind was corrupted by her own lust. This was how Satan begun! God did not create it, Selah! Eve and Adam did, and it passed down to all of us!

Case closed!

 

[JLB]

What other angel? Learn how to quote Scripture yourself.


No. Where in the Bible does it say this? Or did you and Scott speculates as usual?


Chuckle! Can't you read? What is so hard to believe is that you don't really read your Bible.

Let read what your Bible says:

Isa 14:12-14 (NKJV)
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Did you overlooked the word, "son?" Did you understand who is morning, morning star, or the shinning here? No, God did NOT say that Lucifer is the morning himself or the shining one. He is the son "OF" the morning. Your interpretation is wrong.



Rev 12:1-3 (KJV)
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Look, the entire book of Revelation is a collage of cryptic numbers, figures, imagery, enigmatic representations, symbolism, analogies and metaphors. So you need to find the true interpretation by comparing Scripture with Scripture, SPIRITUAL DISCERNED! And of course common sense that you seems to lack of.

For example, if you insist that the the stars of heaven are literally angels that you believe Satan has deceived, then that means the woman has a crown of twelve angels? LOL!

No, these 12 stars as woman's crown are representing the messengers of the congregation of Israel. The number 12 in scripture often specifically identifies with the Lord's congregation. The 12 tribes which represented the Old Covenant with Israel, and the 12 Apostles representing the New Covenant with israel. They all symbolize the same thing. That these are the messengers or Servants of God in the Kingdom of heaven. Not angels!

Therefore, it was the human messengers of the Old Testament congregation under Satan control. God was talking about professed Jews of Israel at that time when Christ was about to be born.



Again, what heaven is this? Heaven where God sits? Or the congregation on Earth as the kingdom of Heaven? Who is Michael and his messengers? Who is Dragon's messengers? What do they fought with? Didn't the Jews lost their kingdom representative that signifies Dragon and his Messengers being cast out of the Kingdom of Heaven at the Cross. It did not take place in the beginning before God created Adam and Eve as you think.

Satan as a fallen angel was cast out of heaven with his angels, which is one third of the angels.


And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9

 

[Scott Downey]

The Bible shows Satan operating in heaven, tempting Christ, and being cast down by angels.
He’s described as a deceiver with supernatural power—not a man.
While he may work through people, Scripture never identifies him as human.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Satan tempts Jesus in the wilderness, offering Him “all the kingdoms of the world.” No human could make such an offer. His ability to transport Jesus and speak with divine insight shows supernatural power

Is the devil a person or a personification of evil? - Answer The Bible

The Bible presents the devil, also known as Satan, as a real spiritual being who opposes God and seeks to harm humanity. However, the devil is also sometimes

www.answerthebible.com

 

[TribulationSigns]

Satan as a fallen angel was cast out of heaven with his angels, which is one third of the angels.

Not a fallen angel. Not out of literal heaven. Not third of angels that God created.

You don't even understand what third signifies in Scripture to begin with anyway. For example in Revelation, a third part of sun smitten, a third part of moon, and a third of stars darkened? Or a third part of man killed? Or Satan's tail that drew third part of the stars down? Do you even know what tail signifies in Scripture? You have long way to understand these first before you assume that Satan must have "one third" of all God's created angels to join with him.

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9

I already explained this but since you still lack spiritual discernment to understand the Truth. Moving on! :-)

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Bible shows Satan operating in heaven, tempting Christ, and being cast down by angels.

Operating in heaven? Show me the Scripture and we will talk. :-)

He’s described as a deceiver with supernatural power—not a man.

Have you even consider that it is man's own mind that corrupted that deceived himself per my post above? Geez!

While he may work through people, Scripture never identifies him as human.”

Huh? No, Satan is a spirit. What spirit is this? Of course, its the spirit of man! His own spirit of disobedience! Go read my post carefully... and slowly.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Satan tempts Jesus in the wilderness, offering Him “all the kingdoms of the world.” No human could make such an offer. His ability to transport Jesus and speak with divine insight shows supernatural power

Is the devil a person or a personification of evil? - Answer The Bible

The Bible presents the devil, also known as Satan, as a real spiritual being who opposes God and seeks to harm humanity. However, the devil is also sometimes

www.answerthebible.com

I never said it was human who tempted Christ. Chuckle.

 

[JLB]

Not a fallen angel. Not out of literal heaven. Not third of angels that God created.

Not a literal heaven?

Ok


Have a nice day.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not a literal heaven?

Ok


Have a nice day.

Thought so!

Don’t tell me that you also believe literal woman was floating in “literal heaven” too in Revelation 12 where you believe Satan and Michael fought in?

LOL.

 

[Scott Downey]

Operating in heaven? Show me the Scripture and we will talk. :-)

Anyone of these

Luke 10:18

• “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
• Jesus affirms Satan’s dramatic fall, referencing the same cosmic event.

Revelation 12:7–9

• “Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon… The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan.”
• This passage vividly describes Satan being cast out of heaven by the archangel Michael and his forces.

Job 1:6–7

• “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.”
• Satan appears in the heavenly court, speaking directly with God and accusing Job.