I will raise them on the last day.

[Marty fox]

I can’t speak for every Premil out there, but here’s how I see it.

No one is reigning with Christ a thousand years until the thousand years actually begin. And once those thousand years are over, that specific reign is over too. There’s a big difference between being reigned over by Christ and reigning with Christ a thousand years. The second one clearly describes a time period----it has a starting point and an ending point, just like Revelation 20 lays out.

So it doesn’t really make sense to say someone is reigning with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even start, or after they’ve finished. That reign belongs to that specific era---the millennium---which begins after Satan is bound and Christ’s kingdom is established on earth.

Something else that might be relevant here. Since, in my mind there is a difference between being reigned over and reigning with. The following parable proves that Christ reigns over someone while He is away, not someone reigns with Christ while He is away.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


There has to be an opposite. The opposite is this. Those of His who are not His enemies allowed Him to reign over them while He is away. Once again, reigning over someone and reigning with someone couldn't possibly mean the same thing. At least I don't think so.


----------------------------------

Pertaining to my point in the end of my post above regarding being reigned over vs reigning with, I then asked Chatgpt the following. BTW, above the dotted line above, none of that had anything to do with me conversing with Chatgpt.
------------------

Me:
Is it a valid argument in general, that there is a difference between being reigned over and reigning with? A thousand years aside. Let's just take that out of the equation for a moment.
-------------------

Chatgpt:
Yes, it’s a valid argument to point out that there’s a significant difference between *being reigned over* and *reigning with*, and this distinction can apply both biblically and logically — whether or not we’re talking about the thousand-year period in Revelation.

### **1. Conceptual Difference**

* **Being reigned over** means being under the authority or sovereignty of someone. This is a *passive* position where you submit to the ruler’s authority, but you’re not necessarily an active participant in the ruling. This is the idea of *subjecthood*.

* **Example:** A king reigns over his people, and the people follow his laws. They don’t participate in the ruling process — they simply submit to it.
* In a biblical sense, this could describe the relationship between Christ and the world today (e.g., God reigns over creation, people are subject to His rule even if they don’t acknowledge it).

* **Reigning with** someone, on the other hand, implies sharing in their authority and ruling alongside them. This is an *active* position where you participate in decision-making or the exercise of power. It's more than being a subject; it’s being a co-ruler.

* **Example:** A monarch might have co-regents or trusted officials who share in ruling the kingdom. The co-regents would have real authority, not just as subjects, but as fellow rulers.
* Biblically, this can refer to the idea that believers will share in Christ’s rule in the future (Revelation 20:4-6), where the saints are actively reigning with Him in His Kingdom.

### **2. Biblical Precedents for Both**

* **Being Reigned Over:**

* **Psalm 103:19** – "The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all." This is a clear example of God's sovereignty over all creation. We’re all under His rule.
* **1 Corinthians 15:24** – "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." This shows Christ reigning over all until the final victory, where all things are subjected to Him.
* **Reigning With:**

* **2 Timothy 2:12** – "If we endure, we will also reign with him." This suggests that believers, as co-heirs with Christ, will actively participate in His reign. This is more than passive subjection — it’s a shared reign.
* **Revelation 20:4-6** – "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." This is clearly a *shared* reign, not just Christ reigning over others.

### **3. Logical Difference**

Even outside of a biblical context, these terms have logical distinctions:

* To be reigned over implies authority is exercised *over* you.
* To reign with someone implies you have authority *with* them — you participate in governance.

In a political sense, if someone says, “I reign with the king,” they’re implying a position of shared power. If they say, “I am reigned over by the king,” they’re simply acknowledging their subordination.

### **4. Theological Implications**

* **The distinction matters** in theological debates about the nature of Christ’s current reign and the future kingdom. Is Christ’s reign now a reign *over* the world, or is He currently reigning *with* His saints?

* **Amillennialists** often see the present reign of Christ as being over all creation through His sovereignty, where believers are subjects in His kingdom, but not actively ruling alongside Him yet.
* **Premillennialists**, on the other hand, interpret the reign with Christ in Revelation as a future, active role where believers will share in His authority during the millennial kingdom.

### **Conclusion**

So yes, the distinction between being reigned over and reigning with is absolutely valid. It’s not just a linguistic nuance but a meaningful theological distinction that shapes how different Christian traditions understand the nature of Christ’s rule, the believer's role, and the future hope of the kingdom. Even setting aside the thousand-year debate, the *active* vs. *passive* role in reigning with Christ vs. being reigned over has significant implications for how we understand our relationship to Christ both now and in the future.

So two different reigning now okay then

So again do we reign because satan is bound or because Jesus is God?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So yes, the distinction between being reigned over and reigning with is absolutely valid. It’s not just a linguistic nuance but a meaningful theological distinction that shapes how different Christian traditions understand the nature of Christ’s rule, the believer's role, and the future hope of the kingdom. Even setting aside the thousand-year debate, the *active* vs. *passive* role in reigning with Christ vs. being reigned over has significant implications for how we understand our relationship to Christ both now and in the future.

This is a very valid point....as long as Christians have existed, Jesus has reigned over them....in the sense that he has set them apart from the world and they are now part of the solution as to the problem of satan’s rulership....those not ruled by choosing Christ’s teachings, are ruled by the devil’s....under the guise of the counterfeit “church” system he created for confusion.

This is the basis for “separation of the sheep and the goats” during these last days. (2 Tim 3:1-5) He speaks of those who “have a godly appearance” but who prove by their actions that they are false Christians. He told us to turn away from them.

When Christ has eliminated every vestige of Satan rulership, he will then reign with his elect, bringing all things back to the way they were meant to be at the beginning. Jesus came to restore what was lost....this is what the thousand year reign of Christ is for.....and yes it has a beginning and an end, when it has accomplished what God sent it to do.

In the beginning, there was just one God, One Creator of all things, who had a wonderful plan for the future in the creation of material things. Satan hijacked that plan and tricked the humans into obeying him rather than God.....so God allowed the pretender to have his way in order to show all intelligent creation...both humans and angels, the folly of such disobedience. They couldn’t be told, so he had to show them what happens when we ignore God’s commands.

Once God’s purpose is back on track, the Bible says that Christ hands back the reins to his God and Father....mission accomplished.

It’s not rocket science....

 

[Hiddenthings]

This is a very valid point....as long as Christians have existed, Jesus has reigned over them....in the sense that he has set them apart from the world and they are now part of the solution as to the problem of satan’s rulership....those not ruled by choosing Christ’s teachings, are ruled by the devil’s....under the guise of the counterfeit “church” system he created for confusion.

I’m sure you have much to say in support of Christ ruling from Heaven, but where in Scripture do you go to learn about Satan’s rulership?

Romans or Hebrews? What about the Acts of the Apostles?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you are denying that what Matthew recorded here took place then our conversation is over because it will never be sorTed out there is no biblical authority and you are denying the scriptures

No one is denying what Matthew recorded.....I am just giving you the explanation that agrees with the rest of Scripture. No one was resurrected to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13) and yet this is what you and many others are suggesting.

The “first resurrection” takes place at Christ’s coming as judge.....the elect are all with him when this takes place. Every vestige of satan’s rulership will be eliminated including all those who supported the wrong Kingdoms in their daily lives. Being part of the world and it’s corruption is what we were told to be “no part of”. (John 18:36)

 

[Hiddenthings]

Therefore, they ignoring, thus contradicting, that both Matthew 25:31 and Matthew 19:28 already provide us the 'when'.

David's throne is in view.

Luke 1:32–33 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

He is yet to take up this throne as His Father is yet to release him from His side to return to ascend it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So again do we reign because satan is bound or because Jesus is God?

Who is “we”?
Unless we understand who the elect are, and what their role is in the Kingdom, nothing will make sense.

Jesus and his elect reign because it is written that it will be so. We don’t choose to be part of the elect because as the name suggests, they are “elected” or “chosen” by God for a specific purpose.

Satan is bound in the abyss so that he cannot interfere with the outcome of the Kingdom’s rule.

In this Jesus is the “holy servant” of his God. (Acts 4:27, 30) He is the one who carries out the solution to all of the devil’s interference....undoing all of it and restoring true worship to “the only true God” that exists. (John 17:3)

 

[Davidpt]

So two different reigning now okay then

So again do we reign because satan is bound or because Jesus is God?

When you say reign, do you mean being reigned over by Christ, or reigning with Christ?

If you mean reigning with Christ, then yes---that reign is directly tied to the binding of satan, which (from a Premil perspective) has not yet happened. That future reign occurs when satan is bound and Christ establishes His millennial reign.

If, however, you mean being reigned over by Christ, then satan doesn’t need to be bound for that to be true. Christ already reigns sovereignly as God, and all believers are under His authority even now.

So, per a Premil view, being reigned over----happens now, because Jesus is God. Reigning with---happens later, when satan is bound and Christ’s kingdom is physically established.

Therefore, your question, "Do we reign because Satan is bound or because Jesus is God?”, depends on which manner you are applying this reigning---reigning with or being reigned over.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Therefore, your question, "Do we reign because Satan is bound or because Jesus is God?”, depends on which manner you are applying this reigning---reigning with or being reigned over.

Keep searching David..the answer is not above.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Davidpt

The first point on Rev 3:21 is the Words of Christ were to a select few (not all!) in the Laodecia Church.

When he said "Will I grant to sit with me in my throne" These words are preliminary to the vision that follows in the next chapter.

Have you considered the following promise's

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

Revelation 20:4 And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 22:5 And they shall reign for ever and ever.

Matthew 19:28 Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Apostles will hold a special office over Israel in the Kingdom age)

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him.

All of these are referring to a Kingdom on Earth with Christ and the Saints at its centre.

Have you also considered the OT prophecies concerning the Saints reigning with Christ?

 

[Davidpt]

@Davidpt

The first point on Rev 3:21 is the Words of Christ were to a select few (not all!) in the Laodecia Church.

When he said "Will I grant to sit with me in my throne" These words are preliminary to the vision that follows in the next chapter.

Have you considered the following promise's

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

Revelation 20:4 And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 22:5 And they shall reign for ever and ever.

Matthew 19:28 Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Apostles will hold a special office over Israel in the Kingdom age)

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him.

All of these are referring to a Kingdom on Earth with Christ and the Saints at its centre.

Have you also considered the OT prophecies concerning the Saints reigning with Christ?

I guess it would be helpful if I knew what your position is? We are already in the millennium? Or the millennium is still future?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Davidpt

In relation to the Saints ruling the nations from Jerusalem we have these Scriptures to consider also:

Revelation 5:9–10 And they sung a new song, saying, “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

(This immediately removes Janes JW ruling from heaven doctrine!)

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(The second resurrection takes place at the end of this period for those mortals who reign over in that period. )

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

(Under Heaven again refers to the Kingdom of God replacing the Kingdoms of Men - On Earth)

You should look at Daniel 7:27 - its an interesting verse!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I guess it would be helpful if I knew what your position is? We are already in the millennium? Or the millennium is still future?

Jesus is not on David's throne - Zion has not become a praise in the Earth - The Saints have not been raised

Zechariah 14:7 “And it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.”

This prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

Here the Saints of Christ will stand on the mountains of Isreal and usher in the Kingdom age.

At this evening, therefore, the saints shall shine forth in the fullness of glory. However, prior to that time, while they are subduing the nations they will restrain themselves.

Bible prophecy indicates that a Jubilee period of about 50 years will elapse between the return of Christ and the beginning of the millennium, or thousand years of peace (Rev. 20:6). This period will involve judgment: first within the household of God (1 Pet. 4:11), and then, through the hands of the Messiah, in relation to the world at large (Psalm 149:7–9).

During this epoch, the Kingdom of God will be established as a "stone" that grows into a mountain filling the whole earth (Dan. 2:35). The Millennial Temple will also be constructed (Isa. 60:10), and Israel will be fully restored (Mic. 7:15).

Following this comes the “evening,” or the beginning of the millennium, when the Lord Jesus and His glorified followers will usher in the completed Temple at a ceremony of inauguration (Ezek 43:1–2), filling it with glory. Until that time, the saints will restrain themselves in terms of the display of glory, appearing as normal humans, much like the angels did to Abraham, Lot, or the inhabitants of Sodom.

Once the judgments are complete, such restraint will no longer be necessary, and their full glory will be revealed. Ezekiel describes how this glory will enter from the east and fill the Temple at its inaugural ceremony (Ezek. 43:4).

The same vision is given throughout the entire Scripture if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

1000-year reign still to come...though not a lot of prophecy to fulfill so time is short!

 

[Davidpt]

@Davidpt

In relation to the Saints ruling the nations from Jerusalem we have these Scriptures to consider also:

Revelation 5:9–10 And they sung a new song, saying, “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

(This immediately removes Janes JW ruling from heaven doctrine!)

That sounds like SDA doctrine. I didn't realize JWs hold a similar doctrine. My view is, the millennial reign takes place on earth. Zechariah 14, for example, is nonsensical if verses 16-19 are not taking place on the earth after Christ had bodily returned earlier, verses 4 and 5 in Zechariah 14.. Not to mention, what you submitted in red--- and we shall reign on the earth. How anyone can conflate earth with heaven, is beyond me?

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus is not on David's throne - Zion has not become a praise in the Earth - The Saints have not been raised

Zechariah 14:7 “And it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.”

This prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

Here the Saints of Christ will stand on the mountains of Isreal and usher in the Kingdom age.

At this evening, therefore, the saints shall shine forth in the fullness of glory. However, prior to that time, while they are subduing the nations they will restrain themselves.

Bible prophecy indicates that a Jubilee period of about 50 years will elapse between the return of Christ and the beginning of the millennium, or thousand years of peace (Rev. 20:6). This period will involve judgment: first within the household of God (1 Pet. 4:11), and then, through the hands of the Messiah, in relation to the world at large (Psalm 149:7–9).

During this epoch, the Kingdom of God will be established as a "stone" that grows into a mountain filling the whole earth (Dan. 2:35). The Millennial Temple will also be constructed (Isa. 60:10), and Israel will be fully restored (Mic. 7:15).

Following this comes the “evening,” or the beginning of the millennium, when the Lord Jesus and His glorified followers will usher in the completed Temple at a ceremony of inauguration (Ezek 43:1–2), filling it with glory. Until that time, the saints will restrain themselves in terms of the display of glory, appearing as normal humans, much like the angels did to Abraham, Lot, or the inhabitants of Sodom.

Once the judgments are complete, such restraint will no longer be necessary, and their full glory will be revealed. Ezekiel describes how this glory will enter from the east and fill the Temple at its inaugural ceremony (Ezek. 43:4).

The same vision is given throughout the entire Scripture if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

1000-year reign still to come...though not a lot of prophecy to fulfill so time is short!

I was preparing to hit the 'Like' button until I saw the part about Ezekiel's temple. I don't agree with that. A lot of us Premils don't.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That sounds like SDA doctrine.

No.

I didn't realize JWs hold a similar doctrine.

They believe Christ and 144,000 rule from heaven.

My view is, the millennial reign takes place on earth.

Correct.

Zechariah 14, for example, is nonsensical if verses 16-19 are not taking place on the earth after Christ had bodily returned earlier, verses 4 and 5 in Zechariah 14.. Not to mention, what you submitted in red--- and we shall reign on the earth. How anyone can conflate earth with heaven, is beyond me?

Correct.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I was preparing to hit the 'Like' button until I saw the part about Ezekiel's temple. I don't agree with that. A lot of us Premils don't.

Whether its Ezekiels temple or another - a temple will be required.

Another unfulfilled prophecy!

Isaiah 2:2–3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That sounds like SDA doctrine. I didn't realize JWs hold a similar doctrine. My view is, the millennial reign takes place on earth. Zechariah 14, for example, is nonsensical if verses 16-19 are not taking place on the earth after Christ had bodily returned earlier, verses 4 and 5 in Zechariah 14.. Not to mention, what you submitted in red--- and we shall reign on the earth. How anyone can conflate earth with heaven, is beyond me?

Just on this - I spent months with Jane showing all the proofs that the Kingdom is on Earth - do you know the JW's once believed in the restoration of Israel and the Kingdom on earth. They abandoned these truths around 1932 under Joseph Franklin Rutherford’s leadership.

Sad part of their history.

 

[Davidpt]

You should look at Daniel 7:27 - its an interesting verse!

I take that verse to be meaning after Daniel 7:9-12 is fulfilled and being fulfilled. Which then means verse 27 involves the millennium that follows the fulfilling of verses 9-11, and that verse 27 is then involving verse 12 and this---they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Where, in my mind, 'time' could be meaning the millennium, and season could be meaning satan's little season.

 

[Davidpt]

No.

In post #254 I think I quoted the wrong portion of your post. I meant to quote this portion instead, or at least include it---(This immediately removes Janes JW ruling from heaven doctrine!)

That what I was saying sounds like SDA doctrine, this ruling from heaven rather than from earth once Christ returns in the end of this age. SDA doctrine has the entire planet empty during the millennium, and has satan stranded(bound) on the earth all by himself. They tend to think Jeremiah 4:23-27 supports their interpretation.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate ; yet will I not make a full end.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I take that verse to be meaning after Daniel 7:9-12 is fulfilled and being fulfilled. Which then means verse 27 involves the millennium that follows the fulfilling of verses 9-11, and that verse 27 is then involving verse 12 and this---they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 2:27 “And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

This expression denotes world dominion in accordance with Daniel 2:44.

The Revised Version renders “kingdom” in the plural. All powers on earth, under heaven, are included in this phrase. It serves as a significant refutation of the heaven-going theories held by many churches, as the dominion of the redeemed is described as under the whole heaven. It is there that Yahweh’s true saints will spend eternity (Rev 20:6).

The adjective “everlasting” comes from the Chaldean alam, equivalent to the Hebrew olam, denoting a “hidden period.” This refers to the Millennium, which has a beginning and an end. At its conclusion, the Kingdom will be delivered to the Father so that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:24–28). “And all dominions shall serve and obey him” When the Lord ascended into heaven, He was given authority over the nations (v.14; cf. Matt. 28:18; 1 Pet. 3:22), though they do not yet serve or obey him. In the future, however, all peoples and kingdoms will serve Yahweh (Ps. 102:22). Those who refuse will be cut off (Isa. 60:12).

Where, in my mind, 'time' could be meaning the millennium, and season could be meaning satan's little season.

I'm assuming you have a traditional view of satan which is based on the mythological stories / inventions rather than Bible prophecy?