Faith alone

[mailmandan]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In regard to Romans 1:5; 16:26, now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16) which is the act of obedience that saves, in contrast with not obeying the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) by refusing to believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God after conversion. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. (Romans 1:5)

Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 5:1) not faith "and obedience/works" and we have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ first, having been made alive together with Christ, by grace through faith we were saved, not by works, then "unto" obedience/works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Debp]

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness (which produced the divine result) was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In regard to Romans 1:5; 16:26, now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16) which is the act of obedience that saves, in contrast with not obeying the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) by refusing to believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God after conversion. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. (Romans 1:5)

Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 5:1) not faith "and obedience/works" and we have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ first, having been made alive together with Christ, by grace through faith we were saved, not by works, then "unto" obedience/works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

@ArkangeMikail The above by @mailmandan is a very good explanation.

 

[nedsk]

When we take a closer look at the word "works" in James, we see the principle of faith that Paul taught throughout the book of Romans.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The "work" that Abraham did was to obey the "word" (voice) of God by which he received faith.

God spoke to him and told him to sacrifice his son Isaac on the alter, and Abraham obeyed.

This principle is called the obedience of faith; it is the law or principle by which faith works to produce the intended divine result.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

You folks don't stop. Abraham had to choose to obey others he wasn't acting out of love. Just like Jesus had to choose the cross. If he wasn't the the crucifixion was just another Roman execution. In order for what you say to be true you'd have to show that faith causes works. I submit it doesn't and scripture seems to support my view.

 

[JLB]

In order for what you say to be true you'd have to show that faith causes works.

Faith does not cause obedience.

The work James is contextually referring to is the action of obedience, which is called the obedience of faith.

 

[nedsk]

Faith does not cause obedience.

The work James is contextually referring to is the action of obedience, which is called the obedience of faith.

I other words a work that we MUST decide to do or our faith is dead. A dead faith cannot be and is not salvific there faith is not sufficient for salvation. Thanks

 

[nedsk]

While that's true (that Christians choose to do good works/deeds done in righteousness .. Titus 3:5), no one is saying that we are somehow forced to do them either, are they? (it seems to me that you are unnecessarily conflating things above that need not be). Before we were saved, we sinned because it was part of our old nature to do so. However, as Christians, we act against our new nature whenever we do (choose to sin, that is).

As the Lord told us plainly, "you will know them by their fruits" .. e.g. Matthew 7:18-20.

We choose, as believers, to glorify/honor God, to do good deeds, to obey Him and live holy, rather than sinful, lives, etc., because that's who we are now, by nature, having been made His workmanship (or masterpiece) as wholly new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). He changed us (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-5), made us alive (spiritually) and saved us, and He made us new in Him such that we freely choose to act in accord with that glorious change (not because we have to, but because we want to, because that's who we are now, and He continues His mighty work in us, PTL, making us more and more Christlike, from here to Glory).

--Papa Smurf

As I said in the OP some people want to claim works "flow" from faith as if they have no choice in the matter. That's the only way faith alone could possibly make sense. If work i a choice works must be necessary for salvation thereby making faith alone a nonsense belief. If works are a choice then then must be necessary for salvation and thats the only way people could be judged by their actions

 

[JLB]

I other words a work that we MUST decide to do or our faith is dead. A dead faith cannot be and is not salvific there faith is not sufficient for salvation. Thanks

We receive faith when God speaks to us, like the example in James.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

In order for the faith Abraham received from God when he told him to offer his son Isaac on the altar, to become activated (“alive”) to produce the intended divine result, Abraham had to obey the word of faith, to sacrifice his son.


When we don’t obey the word of faith, the word by which we receive faith from God, then the faith we receive remains dormant (“dead”) and inactive, because it is incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is incomplete.

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, (the action of obedience) and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:22


In modern terms like a circuit from a battery to a starter is incomplete unless the key is turned and completes the circuit, releasing the power of the battery to the starter to ignite the engine.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26


Again the works the Spirit is indicating here in the passage through James is obedience; the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

 

[nedsk]

We receive faith when God speaks to us, like the example in James.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

In order for the faith Abraham received from God when he told him to offer his son Isaac on the altar, to become activated (“alive”) to produce the intended divine result, Abraham had to obey the word of faith, to sacrifice his son.


When we don’t obey the word of faith, the word by which we receive faith from God, then the faith we receive remains dormant (“dead”) and inactive, because it is incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is incomplete.

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, (the action of obedience) and by works faith was made perfect (complete)? James 2:22


In modern terms like a circuit from a battery to a starter is incomplete unless the key is turned and completes the circuit, releasing the power of the battery to the starter to ignite the engine.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26


Again the works the Spirit is indicating here in the passage through James is obedience; the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

You folks are either obstinate or obtuse. Im not sure which it is. If faith requires working together with works to be perfect then faith alone (sola fide) by definition cannot be true. So with either ignore that or you don't understand it. I'll let you decide.

 

[Angelina]

Faith is the product (outcome) of believing something the lord has told us to be true. When you live out that reality, that truth. It becomes faith in action (works). Not all faith requires a physical action but it does require an action. Some, like Abraham, just believed God (action), and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6

 

[JLB]

You folks are either obstinate or obtuse. Im not sure which it is. If faith requires working together with works to be perfect then faith alone (sola fide) by definition cannot be true. So with either ignore that or you don't understand it. I'll let you decide.

Maybe you could just address my post and the scriptures I presented, rather than insulting me.

 

[PinSeeker]

Scripture is quite clear to all but the most stubborn that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Some argue that works "flow" from faith as if faith causes works. Some say works are "evidence" of faith as if we need to prove our faith to someone. Would that be God? I bet he knows our faith or lack thereof.

I think what we should do is remember what faith is. Fortunately, God defines that for us... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Yes, once we have it, it is ours, but the point is that we did not give it to ourselves; we cannot assure ourselves of things hoped for, and we cannot convict ourselves of things not seen. This faith has to come from outside ourselves; otherwise, it is not a real assurance or conviction at all, it is more along the lines of hopeful or wishful thinking. It has to come from us from God, Who alone can assure us of what we hope for (salvation, eternal life), and the Holy Spirit, Who convicts us of these things not seen. No, we don't need to prove anything to God, but we do have a responsibility ~ a calling from God ~ to act according to the faith and conviction He has given us. And we will, not perfectly of course, but we will, as we will be... self-compelled to do so... because of the faith ~ again, the assurance and conviction ~ He has given us, worked in us. This is exactly what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2 when he says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" ...and in Philippians 2 when he says "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Abraham believed before the law was given...

And he believed because he was called by God...

...before he did anything beforehand...

Right, even believing. God called him, and then he believed God.

...God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness.

Abraham was credited as righteous, right, but not because he had any righteousness of his own. And he received this credit of righteousness because he believed God, right, but he believed God because he was called by God. And this is the case for every single one of us Christians. Hebrews 13 even begins with, "By faith, Abraham..." This is how every single one of us are saved.

The works in Christ are a natural byproduct of Faith...

Exactly right. You seem to have changed your tune from some time ago. Which is great! <smile>

Then after Abraham had believed, he was circumcised as a symbol of his Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. For those in Christ, we are baptized of water for that.

Well, why was Abraham commanded to administer this sign/seal of circumcision to eight-day-old infants? <smile> And likewise, why should we as believers baptize infants? Because we should... <smile>

...everyday we have to try to get better and better to the obedient to God's word, because there is still hope for the living.

Right, but why do we believe, and why do we want to? Why do we want to live as becomes followers of Christ, and obey God, and do good works... Why do we want to do these things? Why do we want to do the will of the Father rather than the will of the devil? <smile> Remember what Jesus said in John 6, 8, and 10... <smile> He said, to some unbelievers he was talking to, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

So the very relevant question is, can we make ourselves of God, and therefore believe and do His will? No, we cannot; this has to be done by God; this is the new birth by the Holy Spirit. As Jesus said in response to the question ~ from His disciples ~ 'who then can be saved'... "With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible... nothing is impossible with God" (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27,

If faith alone (Sola Fide) was sufficient then why write, faith without works is dead?

It might help, nedsk, to correlate our good works with the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5). Someone may have a faith of some kind... faith in something... and therefore doing even good things, but if one is not producing fruit of the Spirit, then it is because he or she does not have the Spirit Himself and therefore does not have this God-given faith we are talking about, but rather has a dead faith.

Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is sufficient because the object of our faith is sufficient.

Fantastic.

Faith produces works and not the other way around.

Fantastic.

... if we do not possess saving faith/are not (already) saved, then we do not yet know the Savior. How can we do works that are pleasing to Him, the works that He prepared beforehand and intends for us to do, prior to being saved by Him/before we even know Him?

Fantastic.

The "work" that Abraham did was to obey the "word" (voice) of God by which he received faith.

Right, but the gift of faith came first.

God spoke to him and told him to sacrifice his son Isaac on the alter, and Abraham obeyed.

Because Abraham had received God's assurance, and conviction by the Spirit. He was then of God, so his will was to do the will of his Father, God.

Faith does not cause obedience.

It does. Remember what God said to the Israelites through Ezekiel: "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Faith is the product (outcome) of believing something the lord has told us to be true

No, it's not. The Bible defines faith for us, as I said above, in Hebrews 11:1... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." See above.

. When you live out that reality, that truth. It becomes faith in action (works). Not all faith requires a physical action. Some, like Abraham, just believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6

Abraham's work of obedience proceeded from his faith, which was given to him by God.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[nedsk]

Faith is the product (outcome) of believing something the lord has told us to be true. When you live out that reality, that truth. It becomes faith in action (works). Not all faith requires a physical action but it does require an action. Some, like Abraham, just believed God (action), and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6

Does faith cause works? Are works a choice? If faith alone (sola fide) is sufficient for salvation why does it need to be in action?

 

[Angelina]

Does faith cause works? Are works a choice? If faith alone (sola fide) is sufficient for salvation why does it need to be in action?

Not so much works but actions. Your action is the expression of that faith. They go hand in hand sometimes. Other times, it just believing by faith. Say if I went into your home and you asked me to sit in a particular chair. I'm going to believe that the chair is going to hold me because you wouldn't have told me to sit there if it were faulty. So I sit. That's faith in action. Believing can also be an action because it is an exchange from nonbelief to belief.

 

[nedsk]

I think what we should do is remember what faith is. Fortunately, God defines that for us... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Yes, once we have it, it is ours, but the point is that we did not give it to ourselves; we cannot assure ourselves of things hoped for, and we cannot convict ourselves of things not seen. This faith has to come from outside ourselves; otherwise, it is not a real assurance or conviction at all, it is more along the lines of hopeful or wishful thinking. It has to come from us from God, Who alone can assure us of what we hope for (salvation, eternal life), and the Holy Spirit, Who convicts us of these things not seen. No, we don't need to prove anything to God, but we do have a responsibility ~ a calling from God ~ to act according to the faith and conviction He has given us. And we will, not perfectly of course, but we will, as we will be... self-compelled to do so... because of the faith ~ again, the assurance and conviction ~ He has given us, worked in us. This is exactly what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2 when he says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" ...and in Philippians 2 when he says "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."


And he believed because he was called by God...


Right, even believing. God called him, and then he believed God.


Abraham was credited as righteous, right, but not because he had any righteousness of his own. And he received this credit of righteousness because he believed God, right, but he believed God because he was called by God. And this is the case for every single one of us Christians. Hebrews 13 even begins with, "By faith, Abraham..." This is how every single one of us are saved.


Exactly right. You seem to have changed your tune from some time ago. Which is great! <smile>


Well, why was Abraham commanded to administer this sign/seal of circumcision to eight-day-old infants? <smile> And likewise, why should we as believers baptize infants? Because we should... <smile>


Right, but why do we believe, and why do we want to? Why do we want to live as becomes followers of Christ, and obey God, and do good works... Why do we want to do these things? Why do we want to do the will of the Father rather than the will of the devil? <smile> Remember what Jesus said in John 6, 8, and 10... <smile> He said, to some unbelievers he was talking to, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

So the very relevant question is, can we make ourselves of God, and therefore believe and do His will? No, we cannot; this has to be done by God; this is the new birth by the Holy Spirit. As Jesus said in response to the question ~ from His disciples ~ 'who then can be saved'... "With man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible... nothing is impossible with God" (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27,


It might help, nedsk, to correlate our good works with the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5). Someone may have a faith of some kind... faith in something... and therefore doing even good things, but if one is not producing fruit of the Spirit, then it is because he or she does not have the Spirit Himself and therefore does not have this God-given faith we are talking about, but rather has a dead faith.


Fantastic.


Fantastic.


Fantastic.


Right, but the gift of faith came first.


Because Abraham had received God's assurance, and conviction by the Spirit. He was then of God, so his will was to do the will of his Father, God.


It does. Remember what God said to the Israelites through Ezekiel: "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).


No, it's not. The Bible defines faith for us, as I said above, in Hebrews 11:1... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." See above.


Abraham's work of obedience proceeded from his faith, which was given to him by God.

Grace and peace to all.

Was Abraham free to disobey? Saying his obedience (action/works) proceeded from his faith is meaningless. The question remains, if faith alone (sola fide) is sufficient for salvation then any mention of works irrelevant. If faith is all thats needed for salvation then works have no role whatsoever but that contradicts scripture, logic, and your own doctrine. If however you insist on including works as a product of faith then faith alone (sola fide) by definition is a lie.

 

[nedsk]

Not so much works but actions. Your action is the expression of that faith. They go hand in hand sometimes. Other times, it just believing by faith. Say if I went into your home and you asked me to sit in a particular chair. I'm going to believe that the chair is going to hold me because you wouldn't have told me to sit if it was faulty. So I sit. That's faith in action.

Actions not works? Thats a distinction without a difference. That's a good analogy but doesn't really help your position. If i ask you to sit you still have to make the choice to sit. That choice either matters or it doesn't because Scripture is clear we will be judged by our behavior and not merely our faith. As a.matter of fact in Matthews gospel it seems to be the deciding factor.

 

[Angelina]

If i ask you to sit you still have to make the choice to sit.

It's the same as faith. Without believing first, there is no faith.

That choice either matters or it doesn't because Scripture is clear we will be judged by our behavior and not merely our faith. As a.matter of fact in Matthews gospel it seems to be the deciding factor.

Your choice is based on belief. That is what faith is: believing something and standing your ground on that belief without wavering. In our case, it's believing in God's word. Why has behavior come into this picture?

 

[nedsk]

It's the same as faith. Without believing first, there is no faith.


Your choice is based on belief. That is what faith is: believing something and standing your ground on that belief without wavering. In our case, it's believing in God's word. Why has behavior come into this picture?

What is the same as faith?

No faith is belief in something unseen. Period.

You didnt really ask me why behavior comes into the the picture did you? Are you completely unaware of Matthews gospel?

 

[Angelina]

No faith is belief in something unseen. Period.

No, faith cannot stand alone. Without belief, faith is just what atheists believe. That there is no God.

You didnt really ask me why behavior comes into the the picture did you? Are you completely unaware of Matthews gospel?

Please explain.

 

[shepherdsword]

But if sola fide (faith alone) is sufficient there would be no need to mention works at all. Yet you people go to great lengths to try and claim works are just a fruit of faith. Works are a choice. They aren't the product of faith like an apple is the product of an apple tree. The apple tree has no choice but to produce apples. If we don't have a choice then we aren't acting out of love. You folks have a huge dilemma on your hands.

Yes there would. Works validate our faith and prove it to be genuine. Most of us view faith through our Greco/Western paradigm. The bible isn't speaking of faith the way the greek philosophers did, as some intellectual quality. In Hebrew culture faith had an entirely different meaning. Faith, to them, was something you could hang your body and all you have on. The Jews knew what Jesus and Paul meant by "believe". James caution was a correction of the paradigm the gentiles had concerning faith. One which is still with us today. James was showing us how faith was validated. However, the term "faith alone" is a misnomer. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. No grace....no salvation. How does grace work? Through faith!

 

[PinSeeker]

Was Abraham free to disobey?

Well, God doesn't like disobedience from those whom He has adopted, so no in that sense. But if you mean Abraham had the ability to disobey, of course he did. But because God had called Abraham, Abraham's desire... his will... was no longer to disobey God, but to obey Him. You see? His will was no longer to do the will of his old father the devil, but was then to do the will of his Father God, and so... he did... <smile>

Saying his obedience (action/works) proceeded from his faith is meaningless.

Well, to you, maybe... <smile> ...but no... <smile>

The question remains, if faith alone (sola fide) is sufficient for salvation then any mention of works irrelevant.

It shouldn't. <smile> Again, remember the definition of faith... God's assurance, and conviction by the Holy Spirit. If God assures us of salvation and eternal life in Christ, then what else do we need? And also, Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith.

If faith is all thats needed for salvation then works have no role whatsoever...

No, we...

• have been saved ~ called by God and born again of the Spirit, justified in the eyes of God
• and are being saved ~ God is doing His good work in us, and He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ

Note: the latter of which involves good works and the fruit of the Spirit. This is what we are created by God, born again of the Spirit, for, in this life​

...so, have been saved and are being saved at the same time.

but that contradicts scripture, logic, and your own doctrine.

<chuckles> Nope...

If however you insist on including works as a product of faith then faith alone (sola fide) by definition is a lie.

I mean, think what you want, nedsk. But, um... <smile>

Grace and peace to you