Salvation:A doctrinal dilemma

[DJT_47]

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 3:19

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 3:19

19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

They all refer to the same thing, the yielding up of our carnal, independent lives for lives dependent on the spirit of Christ. We choose to live by him instead of by our own will alone. We combine our wll with his will, producing in this relationship a deference to God's ultimate will that we live in conformity with His Son.

Water Baptism symbolizes this Salvation--a ritual practiced after we have chosen Salvation. Baptism is a public confession of an internal baptism, in which we become dead to ourselves and alive in Christ, immersed in God's Spirit in order to live in and through Him.

As such, the real Baptism, represented by Water Baptism, is Spirit Baptism, in which we choose to prefer the Spiritual Life over our Carnal Life. This enables us to be Reborn as New Creatures. The spiritual life we have received becomes the germ that fertilizes us and generates our new existence. We then need to water it, and enable it to grow by practicing regular conformity to Christ, or obedience.

 

[ScottA]

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 3:19

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That's a lot of questions--or one big one.

But yes, those passages are all true, and any one of them is enough. They all refer to belief in the one true God...which is our salvation.

 

[DJT_47]

That's a lot of questions--or one big one.

But yes, those passages are all true, and any one of them is enough. They all refer to belief in the one true God...which is our salvation.

Strange answer which is more like a non-answer. What exactly do you think then, since you agreed they are all true, which they are? That's exactly the point. Do you accept all as necessary, or pick your favorite one and adhere to it only?

 

[ScottA]

Strange answer which is more like a non-answer. What exactly do you think then, since you agreed they are all true, which they are? That's exactly the point. Do you accept all as necessary, or pick your favorite one and adhere to it only?

The answer is: Yes and Amen.

With regard to Salvation, each of those passages is an outreached hand from God. It's not a scavenger hunt, or "collect all and win a prize." But rather God in these many ways has demonstrated that he meets us where we are. And one is enough, because each shows belief in God, if sincere. God knows.

 

[DJT_47]

The answer is: Yes and Amen.

With regard to Salvation, each of those passages is an outreached hand from God. It's not a scavenger hunt, or "collect all and win a prize." But rather God in these many ways has demonstrated that he meets us where we are. And one is enough, because each shows belief in God, if sincere. God knows.

Great! You've clarified what you believe, which is an illogical conclusion scripturally IMO, but that's your problem.

 

[ScottA]

Great! You've clarified what you believe, which is an illogical conclusion scripturally IMO, but that's your problem.

And what's your problem? (According to the measure by which you use to accuse)

 

[NotTheRock]

They all refer to the same thing, the yielding up of our carnal, independent lives for lives dependent on the spirit of Christ. We choose to live by him instead of by our own will alone. We combine our wll with his will, producing in this relationship a deference to God's ultimate will that we live in conformity with His Son.

Water Baptism symbolizes this Salvation--a ritual practiced after we have chosen Salvation. Baptism is a public confession of an internal baptism, in which we become dead to ourselves and alive in Christ, immersed in God's Spirit in order to live in and through Him.

As such, the real Baptism, represented by Water Baptism, is Spirit Baptism, in which we choose to prefer the Spiritual Life over our Carnal Life. This enables us to be Reborn as New Creatures. The spiritual life we have received becomes the germ that fertilizes us and generates our new existence. We then need to water it, and enable it to grow by practicing regular conformity to Christ, or obedience.

Well said. Thank you.

 

[NotTheRock]

@DJT_47

I'll simply share my belief and understanding.

The story of mankind is that it was created, it rebelled against its creator, and so Jesus came into the world to reconcile and unite ALL to himself and end the rebellion.

Ephesians 1:9-10
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Those who believe in and faithfully obey Jesus are his true disciples and, upon death, they go straight into the Father's Kingdom. We demonstrate that we are Jesus's disciples not by words alone but by doing what Jesus asks us as described below. I believe that this is what it means to be saved.

Matthew 7:21
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 14:15
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matthew 22:36-40
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

Galatians 5:13-14
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[DJT_47]

And what's your problem? (According to the measure by which you use to accuse)

I have none. I simply follow the words, ALL OF THEM, to where they ALL, lead and believe accordingly, letting the word lead me in lieu of trying to mold the bible around my preconceived beliefs. Goodbye

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation: A doctrinal dilemma

Salvation: how is one saved according to scripture? See below. Do you just pick and choose one of the below scriptures (KJV) you like the best, accept and adopt it as your personal doctrine, and ignore the rest? Aren't they all right? Can or does scripture conflict with scripture, or can one scripture have preeminence over another? Or, are all somehow correct, and if so, how is that possible?

Very good thread. Let's see where it goes!

I'm a firm believer that scripture CANNOT have any conflict...if it does then the NT become untrustworthy and we would not be able to abide by it.

Every single verse is correct and reflects what Jesus taught.

The problem, as I see it, is that it's colored by a denomination, or some personal studying that led to some concept, is eisegesis different? Then I'll add eisegesis where one brings preconceived notions to scripture instead of reading it and trying to understand it.

Some of the problems come from our modern, western understanding of what was written 2 thousand years ago in a different culture.

All verses must be reconciled with each other or we have a real problem.

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Right.
Believe in the Son.
But what does believe mean??

Acts 16:31

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ditto.

Romans 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Our heart is what must believe....
The heart was the seat of the human person....
We are to believe with the heart and not with the mind only.

Acts 3:19

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Repent...time to change our behavior.
We turn to God and He refreshes us with his blessings.

Romans 8:24

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Not sure about this one.
It might mean the resurrection.

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So far no conflicts.
Do YOU see any conflicts?

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

I don't have a problem with this because the early church taught that baptism washes away sins.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We receive the Holy Spirit (indwelling) at the time of baptism.

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The early church believed baptism was necessary for salvation.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

OK
So where is the conflict?
It is WE that make conflicts.

 

[DJT_47]

Very good thread. Let's see where it goes!

I'm a firm believer that scripture CANNOT have any conflict...if it does then the NT become untrustworthy and we would not be able to abide by it.

Every single verse is correct and reflects what Jesus taught.

The problem, as I see it, is that it's colored by a denomination, or some personal studying that led to some concept, is eisegesis different? Then I'll add eisegesis where one brings preconceived notions to scripture instead of reading it and trying to understand it.

Some of the problems come from our modern, western understanding of what was written 2 thousand years ago in a different culture.

All verses must be reconciled with each other or we have a real problem.

Right.
Believe in the Son.
But what does believe mean??

Ditto.

Our heart is what must believe....
The heart was the seat of the human person....
We are to believe with the heart and not with the mind only.


Repent...time to change our behavior.
We turn to God and He refreshes us with his blessings.

Not sure about this one.
It might mean the resurrection.


So far no conflicts.
Do YOU see any conflicts?

I don't have a problem with this because the early church taught that baptism washes away sins.


We receive the Holy Spirit (indwelling) at the time of baptism.


The early church believed baptism was necessary for salvation.

OK
So where is the conflict?
It is WE that make conflicts.

There are no conflicts. All are right and all are necessary. It's man that goes out of his way to try to make the scriptures agree with man's preconceived notions, thus confusing things, and hence you have division. We're on the same page.

 

[ScottA]

I have none. I simply follow the words, ALL OF THEM, to where they ALL, lead and believe accordingly, letting the word lead me in lieu of trying to mold the bible around my preconceived beliefs. Goodbye

Is that how you understand it all then?