Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Spiritual Israelite]

This in Job 38 is about the creation of the earth.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.

5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the [b]line upon it?

6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,

7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Right. The morning stars refer to beings who were created before Adam and Eve were created because it talks about them existing before the earth was created. So, they cannot refer to human beings.

 

[rwb]

For crying out loud, rwb. You continue to try to relate 2 Peter 2:4 to the ungodly of Noah's day when Peter differentiates "the angels who sinned" from the ungodly of Noah's day? In 2 Peter 2:4-6 Peter gives 3 DIFFERENT examples of groups who were punished by God and will be judged by God. You keep trying to act as if 2 Peter 2:4 relates to the ungodly of Noah's day, but that is absolutely not the case. They are only referenced in 2 Peter 2:5.

God did not spare the human messengers that sinned, nor did He spare the old world (kosmos; orderly arrangement). Neither the people of old who sinned were spared, nor was the world of old. It's not three different examples of groups. All the ungodly of old were destroyed and the world then known also perished. Just as the flood waters destroyed both the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the cities by fire, so too the ungodly of old were destroyed by the flood, and the world also "being overflowed with water, perished." And all who shall live ungodly in this age shall all likewise perish, this world too shall also perish through fire.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (KJV) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 2:4-6 (YLT) For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;

2 Peter 3:4-7 (KJV) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:4-7 (YLT) and saying, `Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;' for this is unobserved by them willingly, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of water and through water standing together by the word of God, through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed; and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men.

I believe it's because it's not referring to humans who lived during a certain time period and/or in a certain location, but rather is referring to angels who rebelled against God.

Yes, I am well aware of what you believe! Trouble is you cannot biblically prove what you believe, because you are desperately clinging to doctrine of myth and legend that came from man of old and has been passed down throughout the ages. For about the nine millionth time angels are spirit messengers of God sent to minister to heirs of salvation. You have them confused with spirit messengers of Satan called devils/demons.

What human messengers exactly? Be as specific as possible and don't try to include the ungodly of the days of Noah or the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah because Peter clearly differentiated between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day and of Sodom and Gomorrah.

They are the sons of God that begin with A&E that corrupted themselves through lust of the flesh. God saw that man (not angels) had become wicked and the earth was filled with evil continually. It is man, not angels that God was grieved with, and decided to send the flood to destroy man, not angels from the face of the earth. Along with the ungodly every breathing creature upon the face of the earth and the fowls of the air, the known world would also perish. If the sons of God were fallen angels of God why did they not also perish with the flood?

Genesis 6:1-3 (KJV) And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years

Genesis 6:5-7 (KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

LOL! Oh, really? Should I go back and count how many times you've liked my posts related to the Amil vs. Premil debate? It would take me awhile to do so. How do you suppose that could be the case if I lack spiritual understanding, eh?

This is an indictment against you! It seems you have selective spiritual discernment. You think there can be no spiritual discernment unless it agrees with your mythological doctrine of the spirit realm.

Stop this foolishness! Humble yourself and stop equating your INTERPRETATIONS of the Word of God with the Word of God itself.

This is good advice, I hope you will consider taking your own good advice!

Says the guy who changes angels to humans and says that Satan and demons were created evil despite the fact that everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31).

Once more angels are messengers of God that can be spirit or human. Devils/demons are messengers of Satan that can also be spirit or human.

But, that does not mean all the angels of God from the beginning of when He created the angels never rebelled against God.

If all the angels are ministering spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation, it's because God has ordained it! But you believe that God gave His ministering spirits a free will to disobey God, not because you find this in the Bible, but because you have been brain washed (deceived) into believing myth/legend that came from men of Old and has been passed down throughout the ages.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right. The morning stars refer to beings who were created before Adam and Eve were created because it talks about them existing before the earth was created. So, they cannot refer to human beings.

Absolutely true, and God created the angels and they are called the host of heaven, heavenly host.
And the Lord is called the Lord of Hosts, hundreds of times in scriptures.

1 Kings 18:15
Then Elijah said, “As the Lord of hosts lives, before whom I stand, I will surely present myself to him today.”


Luke 2:13
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:


Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Luke 20:35-36
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Christ tells us His people in the resurrection will be equal to the angels and sons of God.
But we are not yet glorified, no one is glorified until Christ comes again a second time, then we will appear with Him in glory.
And we will be like the angels, which scripture also calls the sons of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

The family of God includes both His elect angels and His redeemed people, as both are the sons of God and fellow servants.

Ephesians 3

Purpose of the Mystery​

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the [b]fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things [c]through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the [d]manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the [e]principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Appreciation of the Mystery​

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father [f]of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Revelation 19

1 After these things I [a]heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to [b]the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both[c] small and great!”

6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

 

[rwb]

Right. The morning stars refer to beings who were created before Adam and Eve were created because it talks about them existing before the earth was created. So, they cannot refer to human beings.

The sons of God are those who are written in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. The morning stars the first stars of the morning and represent the crown of twelve stars (church of Old) adorning the woman (Israel of Old) who gave birth to the man child (Christ). Israel of Old chosen first by God to be bearers of His light unto all people. They are the first on earth to be messengers, or sons/children of God.

This is a spiritual picture depicted in poetic language of the celebration at the beginning of creation because the Covenant ordained from the foundation of the world through the slain Lamb has come to the earth and the Kingdom of God would begin to come to pass just as God promised it would.

Job 38:7 (YLT) In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy,

Revelation 12:1 (YLT) And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars,

Genesis 37:9-10 (YLT) And he dreameth yet another dream, and recounteth it to his brethren, and saith, `Lo, I have dreamed a dream again, and lo, the sun and the moon, and eleven stars, are bowing themselves to me.' And he recounteth unto his father, and unto his brethren; and his father pusheth against him, and saith to him, `What is this dream which thou hast dreamt? do we certainly come--I, and thy mother, and thy brethren--to bow ourselves to thee, to the earth?'

Just as the twelve stars represent the Old Covenant messengers through the twelve tribes called Israel of Old. So too the seven stars represent New Covenant messengers through the seven churches.

Revelation 1:20 (YLT) the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.

Luke 10:20 (YLT) but, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice rather that your names were written in the heavens.'

Revelation 17:8 (YLT) `The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

 

[rwb]

The family of God includes both His elect angels and His redeemed people, as both are the sons of God and fellow servants.

The literal translation is "messengers", choice humans, who would be called apostles, prophets, evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.

1 Timothy 5:21 (YLT) I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Not only does Scripture not call angels His elect, but Scripture in fact also tells us the exact opposite. That's why God became human to save His people (not angels), electing them to be His children. Christ's elect are of the seed of Abraham, a man, not an angel.

Hebrews 2:16 (KJV) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 (KJV) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Scott Downey]

The literal translation is "messengers", choice humans, who would be called apostles, prophets, evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.

1 Timothy 5:21 (YLT) I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Not only does Scripture not call angels His elect, but Scripture in fact also tells us the exact opposite. That's why God became human to save His people (not angels), electing them to be His children. Christ's elect are of the seed of Abraham, a man, not an angel.

Hebrews 2:16 (KJV) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 (KJV) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Elect angels quote

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

The point is these are heavenly witnesses of the behaviors of men, they are the watchers who see from heaven, so nothing is hid from them.

 

[Scott Downey]

What does the Bible say about elect angels?

What does the Bible say about elect angels? Definition and Identity of “Elect Angels” The expression “elect angels” appears directly in 1 Timothy 5:21: “I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these instructions without partiality and to do nothing out of favoritism.” In this context, “elect” points to a group of angels specially identified as faithful and chosen by God. They stand in the presence of God, fully committed to carrying out His will without compromise. While angels feature in many parts of Scripture, this specific term highlights their holy status. It distinguishes them from the fallen angels who rebelled against God. Scripture provides enough information to understand that these elect angels serve God, worship Him, and perform key roles in divine arrangements. Biblical Origin and Nature of Angels Angels, including the elect angels, are entirely distinct from humans. Psalm 148:2-5 depicts them as created beings who join all creation in praising God. The same passage clarifies that God Himself brought them into existence: “Let them praise the name of the LORD, for He commanded and they were created”. Additionally, Hebrews 1:14 describes angels as “ministering spirits, sent to serve those who will inherit salvation.” This indicates they operate as spiritual entities, ministering either in the unseen realm or through visible appearances in certain biblical narratives. Their primary function is obedience to God and service toward His purposes-chiefly to honor Him, provide messages from His throne, or protect and guide believers according to His plan. Distinguishing Holy Angels from Fallen Angels Scripture reveals a division between holy (elect) angels and those who rebelled. According to 2 Peter 2:4, “God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.” Likewise, Jude 6 describes angels “who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling.” These references point to a profound angelic rebellion led by Satan (also called Lucifer), and the result was a permanent separation between those angels who remained faithful (the elect) and those who fell. The faithful, elect angels, as described in 1 Timothy 5:21, have neither abandoned their role nor participated in the rebellion. They remain in God’s presence, ever loyal, and carry out His righteous purposes throughout scripture-from the Old Testament to the New Testament record. The Term “Elect” and Its Significance In many biblical passages, “elect” (or chosen) refers to individuals or groups uniquely set apart by God for His purposes. In the case of angels, this term underscores God’s sovereign choice and their unwavering allegiance. Because they have not sinned and are not under judgment, they show God’s perfect design in maintaining a realm of consistent holiness and service around His throne. The apostle Paul’s usage of “elect angels” in 1 Timothy 5:21 underscores the seriousness of Timothy’s charge, placing the church leader’s responsibilities under the scrutiny of not only God and Christ but also the holy angelic host. This charge, witnessed by the “elect angels,” implies an alignment of heaven’s watchers with God’s commands on earth. Roles and Responsibilities of Elect Angels 1. Worship and Adoration of God Scripture repeatedly shows angels worshiping God. In Isaiah 6:2-3, the seraphim cry, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory!”. Revelation 5:11-12 portrays a multitude of angels praising the Lamb. 2. Messengers and Communicators The word “angel” means “messenger.” They frequently carry divine messages, as seen in Luke 1:26-38, where Gabriel announces the birth of Jesus to Mary. Similarly, angels communicate warnings or support to God’s people, often with miraculous timing. 3. Protection and Guidance Elect angels protect those committed to God’s care. Psalm 91:11 says, “For He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.” Matthew 18:10 insinuates that angels care for children and witness God’s face on their behalf. 4. Execution of God’s Judgments and Plans Angels can bring both messages of blessing and implement judgment. In 2 Samuel 24:15-17, an angel executes judgment in the land. The Book of Revelation depicts many scenes where angels pour out plagues or announce pivotal end-time events (Revelation 8-16). Relationship to Believers and Christ The Bible underscores that angels minister to believers, often unseen (Hebrews 1:14). They played integral roles in Jesus’ earthly ministry, including: • Announcing His birth (Luke 2:10-14). • Ministering to Him after His temptation (Matthew 4:11). • Strengthening Him in Gethsemane (Luke 22:43). • Bearing witness to His resurrection (Matthew 28:2-6). Such activities demonstrate angels’ profound connection to the redemption story-though they do not partake in salvation themselves, they stand as esteemed servants who rejoice in human redemption (Luke 15:10). Future Roles and Eschatological Perspective Scripture also highlights a future context in which angels continue to serve, worship, and announce God’s unfolding plan. They figure prominently in end-times prophecies, heralding events that culminate in Christ’s return. In Revelation 19:17-18, an angel summons the birds of prey during God’s judgment at the end of the age, and in Revelation 20:1-3, an angel binds Satan. First Corinthians 6:3 suggests that believers will, in some capacity, be involved in judging angels. This includes a future accountability for fallen angels, underscoring the high and holy station of the faithful “elect angels” who remain uncondemned. Consistency with the Reliability of Scripture The Bible’s cohesive teaching about angels spans centuries of writings by multiple authors, yet remains internally consistent in describing a heavenly host that includes holy, elect angels. Archaeological and manuscript findings, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, reflect the ancient Jewish worldview that corroborates the biblical belief in heavenly beings. Early Christian writers, including the Apostolic Fathers, preserved teachings about angels that align with later manuscript evidence, supporting the textual reliability of passages describing these spiritual servants. Additionally, the consistent Greek manuscript evidence undergirds passages referencing angels, demonstrating that references to elect angels in 1 Timothy 5:21 are neither later insertions nor controversial additions. Rather, they form part of a unified biblical witness. Practical Lessons and Encouragement 1. God’s Sovereignty Elect angels highlight the extent of God’s authority: He rules not only over the physical universe but also over a vast spiritual realm. 2. Holiness Matters The very word “elect” underscores righteousness and purity. As angels remain consecrated in God’s presence, believers are likewise called to live in holiness. 3. Confidence in God’s Protection Knowing that faithful angels serve God’s people can reassure followers of His care. Though individuals do not command angels, Scripture teaches that God dispatches them as part of His loving provision. 4. Wonder and Worship Encountering angels or reading about them in Scripture reminds believers of the grandeur of God’s creation and His perfect orchestration of all things seen and unseen. Overall, Scripture uses “elect angels” to point to a group of holy, faithful spirits who serve as God’s messengers and perform vital tasks in His cosmic plan. Though they are distinct from humanity, their presence in biblical narratives consistently emphasizes God’s glory, sovereignty, and mercy in salvation history. May the reality of their faithful servanthood inspire constant reverence and trust in the One who commands them.

 

[rwb]

Elect angels quote


1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

The point is these are heavenly witnesses of the behaviors of men, they are the watchers who see from heaven, so nothing is hid from them.

Read the context! It's speaking of the "choice messengers" who are elders in the church, and therefore receive double honor, counted worthy, especially those laboring in word and teaching. It is before God, the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect/choice human messengers that these words are spoken because it is THEY, not angels who are watching over the flock of God.

1 Timothy 5:17-21 (YLT) The well-leading elders of double honour let them be counted worthy, especially those labouring in word and teaching, for the Writing saith, `An ox treading out thou shalt not muzzle,' and `Worthy is the workman of his reward.' Against an elder an accusation receive not, except upon two or three witnesses. Those sinning, reprove before all, that the others also may have fear; I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality.

 

[rwb]

What does the Bible say about elect angels?
Definition and Identity of “Elect Angels”
The expression “elect angels” appears directly in 1 Timothy 5:21: “I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these instructions without partiality and to do nothing out of favoritism.”

1 Timothy 5:21 (YLT) I testify fully, before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the choice messengers, that these things thou mayest keep, without forejudging, doing nothing by partiality.

Psalm 148:2-5 depicts them as created beings who join all creation in praising God. The same passage clarifies that God Himself brought them into existence: “Let them praise the name of the LORD, for He commanded and they were created”.

Psalm 148:1-5 (YLT) Praise ye Jah! Praise ye Jehovah from the heavens, Praise ye Him in high places. Praise ye Him, all His messengers, Praise ye Him, all His hosts. Praise ye Him, sun and moon, Praise ye Him, all stars of light. Praise ye Him, heavens of heavens, And ye waters that are above the heavens. They do praise the name of Jehovah, For He commanded, and they were created.

In Isaiah 6:2-3, the seraphim cry, “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory!”.

Seraphim are not defined as angels of God.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
8314. שָׂרָף saraph (sârâph)
Search for H8314 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.

שָׂרָף sârâph, saw-rawf'

from H8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):—fiery (serpent), seraph.

Revelation 5:11-12 portrays a multitude of angels praising the Lamb.

I would argue this is a depiction of the fullness of heaven as it shall be through the slain Lamb, with all the redeemed of God through the blood of the Lamb. They are "many messengers" and living creatures, and elders numbering myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a great voice "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive the power, and the riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!" And `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might--to the ages of the ages!' and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.

Revelation 5:1-5 (YLT) And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals; and I saw a strong messenger crying with a great voice, `Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose the seals of it?' and no one was able in the heaven, nor upon the earth, nor under the earth, to open the scroll, nor to behold it. And I was weeping much, because no one was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, nor to behold it, and one of the elders saith to me, `Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;

Revelation 5:6-14 (YLT) and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb hath stood as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth, and he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne. And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, having each one harps and golden vials full of perfumes, which are the prayers of the saints, and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.' And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders--and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands-- saying with a great voice, `Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!' and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might--to the ages of the ages!' and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.

The word “angel” means “messenger.” They frequently carry divine messages, as seen in Luke 1:26-38, where Gabriel announces the birth of Jesus to Mary. Similarly, angels communicate warnings or support to God’s people, often with miraculous timing.

Here the word "messenger" is referring to Gabriel, defined an archangel of God. The context leaves no doubt that Gabriel is a spirit, not human being. A ministering spirit of God sent to minister to heirs of salvation. Mary being among the chosen elect of God to give birth to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:26 (YLT) And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which is Nazareth.

Luke 1:30-33 (YLT) And the messenger said to her, `Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God; and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus; he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

 

[rwb]

Elect angels protect those committed to God’s care. Psalm 91:11 says, “For He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.”

The messengers here might also be the spirit angels of God sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. Or it could be human messengers of God who are given and sent to watch over, and guard the heirs of salvation, the church.

Psalm 91:11-12 (YLT) For His messengers He chargeth for thee, To keep thee in all thy ways, On the hands they bear thee up, Lest thou smite against a stone thy foot.

I could go on but this should be sufficient to prove angels are ministering spirits of God, and so are elect humans, both sent to minister to heirs of salvation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Absolutely true, and God created the angels and they are called the host of heaven, heavenly host.

False. And you also still misunderstood Satan.

Satan is not a created person or fallen angel, but rather the spirit of disobedience that operates in man. That idea is echoed in several Scriptures:

Ephesians 2:2 – “...the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.”

Paul does not describe this as a being but as a spirit or mindset that works through people.

James 4:7 – “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

The “devil” is the adversarial nature that tempts or opposes God’s Word — not a literal spiritual creature.

John 8:44 – “You are of your father the devil... for he was a murderer from the beginning.”

Jesus speaks of the murderous spirit within men — not of a separate fallen entity.

So yes — Satan can be understood as a title for the adversarial nature in humanity — the rebellious, self-exalting spirit that opposes God.

Now what about the Lord of hosts?

If Satan and “evil spirits” are manifestations of human rebellion, then it follows that the hosts of the LORD are those redeemed from that rebellion — the obedient Elect, the “army” of the Lord who walk by His Spirit. They are the Covenant People Redeemed from Earth!

Consider these parallels:

Exodus 12:41 – “...all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.”

Did the Lord brought the angels out of Egypt? NO! Those “hosts” were the redeemed Israelites, symbolizing the people set free from bondage (sin, worldliness, Egypt). Hello?

Revelation 14:1–4 – The 144,000 stand with the Lamb, redeemed from the earth.

They are His hosts — spiritual Israel, the faithful army who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are the firstborn. Not angels.

2 Corinthians 10:4–5 – “The weapons of our warfare are not carnal…”

The warfare is spiritual, against thoughts and imaginations — the spirit of disobedience within man.

Therefore, the Lord of Hosts means the Lord over His redeemed people — His covenant army — who have overcome the spirit of disobedience (Satan) within themselves.

Now, if “Satan” is symbolic of human rebellion, then “angels” (Greek angelos, meaning messengers) are likewise human messengers of God’s Word, not your mythic winged beings.

Revelation 1–3: The “angels” of the seven churches are human overseers — messengers of the Word.

Hebrews 1:7: “He makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.”

His ministers — His people — become those “spirits” of fire. Selah!

I am saying that the hosts of the LORD are strictly the covenant people redeemed from the earth — God’s messengers, His Elect, the spiritual army of Michael, Jesus Christ!

@rwb

 

[Scott Downey]

False. And you also still misunderstood Satan.

Satan is not a created person or fallen angel, but rather the spirit of disobedience that operates in man. That idea is echoed in several Scriptures:

Ephesians 2:2 – “...the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.”

Paul does not describe this as a being but as a spirit or mindset that works through people.

James 4:7 – “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

The “devil” is the adversarial nature that tempts or opposes God’s Word — not a literal spiritual creature.

John 8:44 – “You are of your father the devil... for he was a murderer from the beginning.”

Jesus speaks of the murderous spirit within men — not of a separate fallen entity.

So yes — Satan can be understood as a title for the adversarial nature in humanity — the rebellious, self-exalting spirit that opposes God.

Now what about the Lord of hosts?

If Satan and “evil spirits” are manifestations of human rebellion, then it follows that the hosts of the LORD are those redeemed from that rebellion — the obedient Elect, the “army” of the Lord who walk by His Spirit. They are the Covenant People Redeemed from Earth!

Consider these parallels:

Exodus 12:41 – “...all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.”

Did the Lord brought the angels out of Egypt? NO! Those “hosts” were the redeemed Israelites, symbolizing the people set free from bondage (sin, worldliness, Egypt). Hello?

Revelation 14:1–4 – The 144,000 stand with the Lamb, redeemed from the earth.

They are His hosts — spiritual Israel, the faithful army who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are the firstborn. Not angels.

2 Corinthians 10:4–5 – “The weapons of our warfare are not carnal…”

The warfare is spiritual, against thoughts and imaginations — the spirit of disobedience within man.

Therefore, the Lord of Hosts means the Lord over His redeemed people — His covenant army — who have overcome the spirit of disobedience (Satan) within themselves.

Now, if “Satan” is symbolic of human rebellion, then “angels” (Greek angelos, meaning messengers) are likewise human messengers of God’s Word, not your mythic winged beings.

Revelation 1–3: The “angels” of the seven churches are human overseers — messengers of the Word.

Hebrews 1:7: “He makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.”

His ministers — His people — become those “spirits” of fire. Selah!

I am saying that the hosts of the LORD are strictly the covenant people redeemed from the earth — God’s messengers, His Elect, the spiritual army of Michael, Jesus Christ!

@rwb

Mythic winged beings, oh that's rich.
You have a strange doctrine regarding this.

Doom of False Teachers​

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[WPM]

More like no study of Scripture because the doctrine is inconsistent and contradictory at every turn. It's in total disharmony with everything else in the Bible. Look... the Serpent itself was cursed to symbolize the unclean spirit of man. That's why God told Israel they were forbidden to eat whatsoever goes about upon the belly (Leviticus 11:42) because that represented an unclean animal, signifying unsaved man. You need to look it up in Acts 10:14; Acts 10:28; etc.! When we become saved, God has cleansed what was once unclean in the Spirit of Christ.

Micah 7:16-17

• "The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
• They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee."

They lick the dust "LIKE" a serpent because they have that cursed unclean spirit! Selah! Here is the Serpent God cursed in Genesis to go upon its belly that the dust should be its food all the days of thy life. Hello?! Or are you in denial or coming up with more speculations or stupid questions. It's unsaved man that is at enmity with the Woman! Not literal angels, demons, or your vision of 'celestical beings!" Likewise God called the Serpent subtil because the mind is a crafty and cunning part of mankind. It is what rationalizes away dishonesty, lawlessness and disobedience. This is why the Serpent in the Garden was called wily or subtil (cunning, crafty). Sin starts in the deep recesses of the mind through the spirit eyes of justification and rationalization. Not through a literal snake.

2nd Corinthians 11:3

• "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, SO your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

The word, "so", or [houto] "in-this manner" the mind is corrupted. In other words, that's the way it is corrupted. The serpent worked within Eve's mind! Just as he worked in our mind before we were born again! It wasn't a angelic being, sorry to disappoint you! It was her own spirit in lust that fells into corruption and leads her (and us) astray. Go look it up in James chapter 1 yourself. Moreover see in this passage that the Apostle equates the Serpent beguiling or deceiving Eve to corruption of the mind from simplicity. Same scenario we see again of the corruption beginning in the mind's eye and leading to sin. Consistently we see the same portrait of the working of sin. The carnal lust Eve had came from the corruption in her mind so that mankind lost that virgin purity through their own lust! Not through a one-on-one chat with "Cheshire" snake or a fallen angel from heaven. No, bud, it was her own mind was corrupted by her own lust. This was how Satan begun! God did not create it, Selah! Eve and Adam did, and it passed down to all of us!

Case closed!

Satan is different from the human spirit. Have a look at each passage you quote. It exposes your doctrine. You're expanding Christadelphianism.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Mythic winged beings, oh that's rich.

Yes, its your indoctrination of mythic winged beings. :-)

You have a strange doctrine regarding this.

The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that. You have not even refute my previous post with Scripture I quoted. You did not answer my question if God brought the angels out of Egypt or will you admit that the hosts are those called out of Egypt? Strange doctrine? No, its a matter of receive what the Word of God says.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

2nd Peter 2:4

• "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

The messengers being reserved or [tereo], means to be observed, and by extension to be guarded or watched over. Much as a sentinel so that they cannot escape. They are cast down to a spiritual hell [tartaroo], meaning a boundless void or abyss where they must remain reserved unto the day they are resurrected from that death to stand before God and be judged. Judgment is not instantly upon deaeth of the Body, it is on the last day. Likewise:

Jude 1:6

• "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

The messengers who apostatized or fell away from the faith in leaving their primary habitation are now reserved or kept in spiritual chains in darkness that shall never be removed, to the day of judgment. It's the same as when I spoke about those who die unsaved. They do not immediately go to be judged, they are reserved in the abyss of perpetual darkness until "the last day" when they are resurrected to stand before God and be judged for their sins. i.e., those who believe go to live and reign with the Lord when they leave this body in death, but the unbelievers who die do not live or have conscious existence, they are reserved in this spiritual abyss until the time when the books are opened and they are judged out of it.

Revelation 20:5

• "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The "rest of the dead" in that verse refers to the unbelievers who are dead and were not part of Christ's "First Resurrection" from the dead. We read they didn't live again until the second resurrection. While those who have part in the first resurrection go to be with the lord when they exit their physical bodies, to live and reign with Him. The "rest" don't live or have conscious existence as these believers do, they are reserved until the second coming after the millennial reign of Christ, where they are raised from the dead to stand for judgment. That state "not living again" is what is in view here of the messengers who sinned, having been being cast down to hell and darkness and reserved unto the judgment.

So yes, it means that they are kept somewhere (a spiritual abyss, bound in spiritual chains in darkness) until the judgment. Until after the millennial reign of Christ in the church age is over, and they are resurrected to stand for that judgment. Even as it is written:

Revelation 20:13

• "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Strange doctrine? Yes to those who do not want to hear the truth.

 

[Scott Downey]

Satan is different from the human spirit. Have a look at each passage you quote. It exposes your doctrine. You're expanding Christadelphianism.

Angels: God's Messengers

They do believe in angels as celestial beings, not as humans according to this.
Although they do not believe in Christ as as one of the Trinity.
They seem closer to JW.

Response to Mainstream Christianity: The Nature of Christ

The Christadelphians: A response to mainstream christianity on the nature of Christ: CHRIST IS NOT GOD.

christadelphia.org

And that demons and Satan are people

Christadelphians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rwb]

The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that. You have not even refute my previous post with Scripture I quoted.

Those who want to cling to mythological legend of old cannot refute anything regarding the spirit realm, because they have no understanding of the spiritual realm. They lack all spiritual discernment when it comes to understanding things of the spirit. That's why no matter how many verses that show how their bizarre doctrine causes contradiction and confusion they will continue to cling to myths and legends because PRIDE will not allow them to receive truth.

 

[rwb]

False. And you also still misunderstood Satan.

Satan is not a created person or fallen angel, but rather the spirit of disobedience that operates in man. That idea is echoed in several Scriptures:

Ephesians 2:2 – “...the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.”

Paul does not describe this as a being but as a spirit or mindset that works through people.

James 4:7 – “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

The “devil” is the adversarial nature that tempts or opposes God’s Word — not a literal spiritual creature.

John 8:44 – “You are of your father the devil... for he was a murderer from the beginning.”

Jesus speaks of the murderous spirit within men — not of a separate fallen entity.

So yes — Satan can be understood as a title for the adversarial nature in humanity — the rebellious, self-exalting spirit that opposes God.

Now what about the Lord of hosts?

If Satan and “evil spirits” are manifestations of human rebellion, then it follows that the hosts of the LORD are those redeemed from that rebellion — the obedient Elect, the “army” of the Lord who walk by His Spirit. They are the Covenant People Redeemed from Earth!

Consider these parallels:

Exodus 12:41 – “...all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.”

Did the Lord brought the angels out of Egypt? NO! Those “hosts” were the redeemed Israelites, symbolizing the people set free from bondage (sin, worldliness, Egypt). Hello?

Revelation 14:1–4 – The 144,000 stand with the Lamb, redeemed from the earth.

They are His hosts — spiritual Israel, the faithful army who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are the firstborn. Not angels.

2 Corinthians 10:4–5 – “The weapons of our warfare are not carnal…”

The warfare is spiritual, against thoughts and imaginations — the spirit of disobedience within man.

Therefore, the Lord of Hosts means the Lord over His redeemed people — His covenant army — who have overcome the spirit of disobedience (Satan) within themselves.

Now, if “Satan” is symbolic of human rebellion, then “angels” (Greek angelos, meaning messengers) are likewise human messengers of God’s Word, not your mythic winged beings.

Revelation 1–3: The “angels” of the seven churches are human overseers — messengers of the Word.

Hebrews 1:7: “He makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.”

His ministers — His people — become those “spirits” of fire. Selah!

I am saying that the hosts of the LORD are strictly the covenant people redeemed from the earth — God’s messengers, His Elect, the spiritual army of Michael, Jesus Christ!

@rwb

Isn't it interesting how you come with mountains of biblical proof to prove what you're saying. But all we get from those who desperately want to cling to myth and legend is repetition as though repeating error again and again will somehow prove it true. Or we get what they think but seldom what they know.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Isn't it interesting how you come with mountains of biblical proof to prove what you're saying. But all we get from those who desperately want to cling to myth and legend is repetition as though repeating error again and again will somehow prove it true. Or we get what they think but seldom what they know.

Yeah...their weak defense are like:

"...closer to JW."​

​

"You're expanding Christadelphianism"​

Well, okay... as I often said, "The Lord judges and I am comfortable with that."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God did not spare the human messengers that sinned

Which human messengers exactly? Please tell me who exactly you think "the angels who sinned" are.

, nor did He spare the old world (kosmos; orderly arrangement). Neither the people of old who sinned were spared, nor was the world of old.

Are you still trying to say that verse 4 is referring to the people (human messengers) of Noah's day? No, it is not. You are absolutely mistaken about. Peter differentiates between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day. Look at the text carefully.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Notice the word "and" there at the beginning of 2 Peter 2:5. That shows that Peter is saying in verse 5 that not only did God not spare the angels who sinned while casting them to Tartarus and reserving them for judgment, but He also spared not the ancient world consisting of the ungodly in Noah's day and He only saved Noah and his family. So, Peter differentiated between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day. It's just not reasonable at all to claim that the ungodly of Noah's day are in view in 2 Peter 2:4. That makes verse 5 redundant. Peter went on to give a third example of a group that God judged and will punish in verse 6 when he referenced the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah.

It's not three different examples of groups.

It absolutely is. Only doctrinal bias can prevent you from seeing that.

All the ungodly of old were destroyed and the world then known also perished.

That's what Peter points out in 2 Peter 2:5. No ungodly people were cast to Tartarus. They go to Hades, according to Jesus in Luke 16:23 where He references the rich man as being in Hades. There is no basis for equating Tartarus with Hades. Both are translated as "hell", but that doesn't make them the same. Even the grave where dead bodies are is sometimes translated as hell, so you need to consider the original language and text in cases like this.

Yes, I am well aware of what you believe!

So, you have no excuse for correcting your false belief. You have been told the truth about this and are too stubborn to adjust your belief accordingly.

Trouble is you cannot biblically prove what you believe,

Except that I have. Repeatedly. You are too stubborn to admit that your belief that Satan and demons were created evil blatantly contradicts the fact that everything God created was very good. And your supposed proof that it's not talking about angels in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 is just that the Greek word can also be translated as messengers (i.e. human messengers). Yet, all of the English translators translate the word as "angels". For a reason. It's because it's talking about angels and not humans.

because you are desperately clinging to doctrine of myth and legend that came from man of old and has been passed down throughout the ages.

That's your favorite comment, but it's meaningless. I study scripture for myself and it's not from "man of old" as you falsely accuse. I am showing you the scriptures that I base my beliefs on. I'm not quoting any "man of old" who told me what to believe. This accusation is a total copout. Address my beliefs, not the beliefs of "man of old". You believe some things that have been believed for a long time. Does that make those things not true? This is a ridiculous line of argument that you make here that I can't take seriously at all.

For about the nine millionth time angels are spirit messengers of God sent to minister to heirs of salvation. You have them confused with spirit messengers of Satan called devils/demons.

For about the tenth million time, everything God created was very good. Therefore, the one we call Satan and the ones we call demons had to have been very good when they were created. You have no way around that.

You can't take this verse out of your Bible.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Also, there is no way around the fact that Genesis 1:3-5 is talking about literal light and darkness because they are related directly to the literal day and night and literal morning and evening. Your belief causes you to twist that text and change it to metaphorical light and darkness instead.

They are the sons of God that begin with A&E that corrupted themselves through lust of the flesh.

Just as Adam and Eve were created very good, so were Satan and demons. I know that because scrpiture expliclity says that EVERYTHING God created was very good. There is no way around this. No amount of meaningless talk about myths and men of old can change that.

God saw that man (not angels) had become wicked and the earth was filled with evil continually.

You acknowledge here that man became wicked. He was created very good just like everything else, right? So, why are you able to understand that, but can't acknowledge that some angels also became wicked? It's not as if you don't allow for beings to be good and become wicked since that's what you believe about Adam and Eve.

It is man, not angels that God was grieved with, and decided to send the flood to destroy man, not angels from the face of the earth.

Scripture primarily deals with the relationship with God and man. It's not the purpose of scripture to go into detail about the relationship between God and angels. So, this argument is very weak. And we know that God will indeed punish Satan and other evil spirit beings we call demons, so it's not as if God doesn't also punish spirit beings rather than only human beings.