DO WE NEED MESSIANIC PROPHECIES?

[Grailhunter]

In college there were a lot of studies on Messianic prophecies. I heard them all and all the different interpretations. Some of them pretty good. I am not saying there were not Messianic prophecies but the prophecies of the Old Testament foretold of a human warlord king Messiah. And that was what the Jews were expecting.

The Hebrew Bible….what we call the Old Testament says the Messiah would be the descendant of King David, emphasizing that he would be human. A king a warlord king that would violently take out the Jewish oppressors “the terrible day of the Lord” and put the Jews in power….world power….and a new glistening Temple would be built and sacrifices would go on forever and the Mosaic Laws would never change and would be obeyed by the whole world. And the kingdom of this king would last forever ….The Jews were not expecting for this king to be crucified.

As we know that did not happen but the Jews are still waiting for it. Some would say that the Messianic Prophecies started in Genesis. The Messiah is referenced in different ways in the Hebrew Bible but the word Messiah only appears twice in the Hebrew Bible and both in the Book of Daniel. The detailed concept of the Messiah starts with the prophets around 600 BC. Which means that the Jews today have been waiting over 2600 years for the Messiah.

In the Hebrew Bible God’s greatest enemies were the Pagans and He had the Israelites/Jews declare war on them. The whole kill all that breaths command.

But when we jump to the New Testament the Messiah is not just human, He is a God. And God loves the world and the Messiah does not declare war on the Pagans….He is out to save them and bring them into the fold.

The Jews were shocked, a slap in the face. Their oppressors would be welcomed into their religious group! Keep in mind the most horrendous things had been done to the Jews by Pagans. Tens of thousand tortured and crucified, wives raped and taken as sex slaves and men turned into slaves. The lose of the Ten Tribes.

So most of the Jews rejected Yeshua and cried Crucify Him!!! Crucify Him!!! Let His blood be on us and our children! The killers of Christ! So called by early Christians. And so it was, for centuries the Jews were persecuted and killed.

In the New Testament Yahweh greatest enemy is Satan and his demons….not the Pagans. And love and forgiveness is the theme. Love God over fear God. Forgiveness rather than a tooth for a tooth.

Now the BIG WHY? What changed between the testaments? Why did they change? We do not know the details because the Bible does not offer the details. The problem with that is that when that happens people have a tendency to fill in the blanks or fall back on what was written before or reinterpret scriptures in an attempt adjust them to what actually happened. This even lead some to add to the Old Testament things that they thought “should be there” things like the devil and Hell. The Jews did and still do not believe in the devil or Hell.

The devil and Hell are first defined in the New Testament. The concept of a place of a fiery eternal punishment was so new that they did not have a word for it. So they used explanations and adopted other words for a very real and horrible place.

Satan was in the Old Testament but was not defined as a devil. In fact Satan was combing the earth observing righteousness and reporting directly to Yahweh.

So what to do with all these Messianic prophecies? The truth is Yeshua does not need prophecies and they contribute to some Christians trying to mix the Old and New Covenant which can be disastrous. But people have been doing it for centuries….

They comb through the Old Testament looking for scriptures that might suggest the coming Messiah. Even plucking one liners out of the middle of a chapter or storyline saying it is a Messianic prophecy. The Old Testament is a large volume so looking for a verse that might mean something to do with the Messiah is very possible particularly if taking them out of context is valid. Israel is called the sons and daughters of Yahweh. King David and King Solomon are called sons of Yahweh and Ezekiel is called is called the son of God and this can be confusing because some people think they are referring to Christ.. Keep in mind that lower case and capitals are more modern grammatical. The original Hebrew Bible was written in all capitals and no spaces, so as one word. For example God and god is the same word written in capitals. Again the Messiah Yeshua does not need prophecies, all that is needed is faith.

The Old Testament is a shock. Can you imagine if there was a prophecy that foretold of Yahweh impregnating a woman that was betrothed? That is adultery according to the Mosaic Law. And if there were prophecies of the Jews involved with the Messiah’s torture and crucifixion, what would that have done to the religious beliefs of the Jews? They would have probably ran for the hills because they would have expected the wrath of God to fall on them. Killing Yahweh’s Son made things better for Mankind. Quite a shocking concept.
Considering what we do have in the scriptures…..faith is the better way.

https://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Grailhunter,

And if there were prophecies of the Jews involved with the Messiah’s torture and crucifixion, what would that have done to the religious beliefs of the Jews?

You have given an elaborate collection of ideas, most of them very marginal and extreme. The OT and NT are harmonious and Jesus is prophesied in numerous OT Scriptures and also anticipated by many examples and lessons. Stephen, for example, mentions the initial rejection of Joseph and Moses by his brethren. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are strong examples of the anticipated suffering of Jesus and the resulting salvation resulting from his death, resurrection and exaltation.

Considering what we do have in the scriptures…..faith is the better way.

Faith is based on a correct and balanced understanding of God's complete revelation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings Grailhunter,

You have given an elaborate collection of ideas, most of them very marginal and extreme. The OT and NT are harmonious and Jesus is prophesied in numerous OT Scriptures and also anticipated by many examples and lessons. Stephen, for example, mentions the initial rejection of Joseph and Moses by his brethren. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are strong examples of the anticipated suffering of Jesus and the resulting salvation resulting from his death, resurrection and exaltation.

Faith is based on a correct and balanced understanding of God's complete revelation.

Kind regards
Trevor

What I did not say....
I did not say that there is nothing to learn from the Old Testament.
I did not say that most of it is not accurate, they are finding proof of it accuracy all the time.

But what I presented is accurate and it is common knowledge ....you can look it up yourself.

The Old Testament is knowledge but it is not our religion. 613 Mosaic Laws and a good part of them do not pertain to Christianity. Because the Mosaic Law allowed them to treat women as property and practice polygamy and concubinage where fathers sold their daughters as sex slaves. Also the Mosaic Law also called for the execution of females that were raped if they did not scream. And if a Jew would worship Yeshua or the Holy Spirit it would be called idolatry and the Mosaic Law calls for their execution. And that is just to name a few objectionable practices that are not in harmony with Christian beliefs

So no Judaism and Christianity are not harmonious.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

But what I presented is accurate and it is common knowledge ....you can look it up yourself.

No, you have given an elaborate collection of ideas, most of them very marginal and extreme, and your latest post is similar.

So no Judaism and Christianity are not harmonious.

The religion of the OT faithful is the same as the NT faithful. Yes the extremes of modern Judaism and modern so-called Christianity are not compatible. Yes, we benefit strongly from both OT and NT Messianic prophecies. Do you reject these?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

No, you have given an elaborate collection of ideas, most of them very marginal and extreme, and your latest post is similar.

The religion of the OT faithful is the same as the NT faithful. Yes the extremes of modern Judaism and modern so-called Christianity are not compatible. Yes, we benefit strongly from both OT and NT Messianic prophecies. Do you reject these?

Kind regards
Trevor

It is not a matter of rejecting. The Old Testament says what it says.....you can read the same as anybody.
The 613 Mosaic Laws are listed in the Old Testament and they more or less form Jewish beliefs.
As I explained the Messianic prophecies do not desribe Yeshua or what He did.
If you do not believe me you can look it up yourself. Or don't, no harm, no foul.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

As I explained the Messianic prophecies do not desribe Yeshua or what He did.

Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-47 (KJV): 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-47 (KJV): 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

The New Testament definitely talks about Messianic prophecies but….
The Messiah being a God is not foretold. The Jews were expecting a human Messiah.
Yeshua does not establish an earthly kingdom.
Christ rose 39 hours after his death. Three days is 72 hours. The Jewish day starts at dusk and only 2 of those occurred.
The Jews betraying Yeshua is not prophesied in the Old Testament. That would have been a very destructive Messianic prophecy.
The passion and crucifix and death of the Messiah are not foretold.
The resurrection is not foretold. The word resurrect does not appear in the Old Testament.
The Messiah ascending to His father is not foretold in the Old Testament.
And then disappear for 2000 years.
Christ did not free them from their oppressors, He did not even try. In fact Yeshua intended to save their oppressors which infuriated the Jews.

Again most of the time the Messianic prophecies that people point to are one liners pulled out of context from storylines or people point to verses speaking of King David or King David speaking of himself.

The verses that are actual Messianic prophecies speak of a human warlord king that frees the Jews from their oppressors in what is called the terrible day of the Lord. The Jews had waited 600 years for the Messiah and were anxious for His arrival but the primary reason that the Jews did not accept Yeshua as their Messiah was that He did not fit the actual Messianic prophecies and He seemed criticial of the Jews to boot.
Interesting point….Daniel was seeing something with his prophetic visions.

And thanks for responding.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

The verses that are actual Messianic prophecies speak of a human warlord king that frees the Jews from their oppressors in what is called the terrible day of the Lord.

You continue to ignore the two references in Luke 24 and continue to express some of your extreme views. We are not directly told what Jesus expounded to the two on the way to Emmaus, nor what he expounded to the Apostles. Peter's speech in Acts 2 seems probable to reflect some of this teaching when Peter expounds Psalm 16 and Psalm 110 to prove the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus. Also in his speech in Acts 3, he mentions that his message is based upon "all the prophets" and it has been suggested that Peter quoted at least a few OT prophecies, but again Luke did not record the prophecies that Peter used to substantiate his claim. As far as prophecies are concerned I like the Four Servants Songs of Isaiah and Isaiah 6.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

You continue to ignore the two references in Luke 24 and continue to express some of your extreme views. We are not directly told what Jesus expounded to the two on the way to Emmaus, nor what he expounded to the Apostles. Peter's speech in Acts 2 seems probable to reflect some of this teaching when Peter expounds Psalm 16 and Psalm 110 to prove the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus. Also in his speech in Acts 3, he mentions that his message is based upon "all the prophets" and it has been suggested that Peter quoted at least a few OT prophecies, but again Luke did not record the prophecies that Peter used to substantiate his claim. As far as prophecies are concerned I like the Four Servants Songs of Isaiah and Isaiah 6.

Kind regards
Trevor

Why would you say I ignore your references when I acknowledged in my last post and my original post that the New Testament referenced prophecy and acknowledged Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament.
Here let me do it this way…

Psalm 16
Preserve me, O God, for I take refuge in You.
2 I said to the Lord, “You are my Lord;
I have no good besides You.”
3 As for the saints who are in the earth,
They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight.
4 The sorrows of those who have bartered for another god will be multiplied;
I shall not pour out their drink offerings of blood,
Nor will I take their names upon my lips.
5 The Lord is the portion of my inheritance and my cup;
You support my lot.
6 The lines have fallen to me in pleasant places;
Indeed, my heritage is beautiful to me.
7 I will bless the Lord who has counseled me;
Indeed, my mind instructs me in the night.
8 I have set the Lord continually before me;
Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
9 Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will dwell securely.
10 For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol;
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
11 You will make known to me the path of life;
In Your presence is fullness of joy;
In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.

Here we have a Psalm of King David…..who Yahweh called His son And he is anointed….Messiah means anointed one. People pluck verse 10 for a Messianic prophecy....vague. Why one verse why not a couple chapters? The word Messiah or Savior does not appear here or His name Yeshua. The word resurrection or description of the resurrection events do not appear here. Or the Messiah’s sacrifice to end all sacrifices to forgive our sins and offer Heaven as a reward. Like I said the Old Testament is a large volume and if you can cherry pick one verse out of context and post it as Messianic you will not have anything that proves anything. Like I said the word Messiah only appears twice in the Old Testament.

For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. Sound a little morbid.....no resurrection.....stay in Sheol and not decay? Most Christians know little about Sheol.

There are legitimate Messianic prophecies but because things changed between the testaments they are going to describe the Messiah as a human warlord king that establishes his kingdom and frees the Jews from their oppressors and put the Jews in power and builds a new temple where sacrifices continue forever and the Mosaic Laws are obeyed by everyone forever.

There are legitimate Messianic prophecies and they are not one liners…..Chapters describe the Messiah and the Messianic age. Don’t you think the topic of the Messiah deserves a chapter or two or three. But instead people present one liners.

There is a reason why the Jews believed that the Messiah would be human and there is a reason that the Jews rejected Yeshua. The Old Testament gave them descriptions that did not fit Yeshua or what went on. Under the circumstance the Messiah had to be a God and his adversary was Satan and He was out to save the world and open the gates of Heaven to humanity. That prophecy does not occur.

You are just going to deny what I am telling you and that is to be expected. I take no offense, but if you want to know the truth you need to do some studying.

I am going to tell you not as an insult, you need to study why the Jews believed what they did….Read Ezekiel and read about the terrible day of the Lord in different areas of the Old Testament. It was said the terrible day of the Lord was at hand. Initially the Messianic age was to start out with great violence earth shaking violence and death for Jewish oppressors. What actually occurred was Christ's death. I do not like repeating myself so I will start pointing you to prior posts.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

People pluck verse 10 for a Messianic prophecy....vague.

But it is Peter who quotes this as teaching the resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 2:22–36 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

if you want to know the truth you need to do some studying.

In college there were a lot of studies on Messianic prophecies. I heard them all and all the different interpretations. Some of them pretty good.

Perhaps your studying has been recent at college and you have drawn many wrong, extreme and marginal conclusions. There are many resources with varying views and you need to properly discern which are correct and balanced. It seems that you have not properly considered the Bible over many years with proper prayer and meditation and have not reached wise and balanced understanding.

I do not like repeating myself

Perhaps your present or future response to Peter's application of Psalm 16 will be sufficient.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[HealthyShape]

Do we need them? No, not really.

We, today's Christians, accept the Old Testament only because it supports Jesus Christ. We did not begin in the Old Testament, looking for Christ. Our situation is the opposite to the Jews in the 1st century. We are born and grow up in already Christian culture.

And we, from Gentile nations, do not need Jesus Christ to fulfill some Jewish prophecies. We can accept He is the true God and the true Man, savior and Lord, without the Old Testament.

For Jews, He was the end of their era. For us, He was the beginning of our era. In other words, we accept the OT prophecies, because they witness about Christ. We do not accept Christ just because of the OT prophecies.

In my opinion.

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

But it is Peter who quotes this as teaching the resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 2:22–36 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



Perhaps your studying has been recent at college and you have drawn many wrong, extreme and marginal conclusions. There are many resources with varying views and you need to properly discern which are correct and balanced. It seems that you have not properly considered the Bible over many years with proper prayer and meditation and have not reached wise and balanced understanding.


Perhaps your present or future response to Peter's application of Psalm 16 will be sufficient.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ok you are making me repeat myself again. Again and again….they quoted Messianic prophesies in the New Testament.
But these scriptures are interesting.
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell? The word hell or its Greek equivalent does not exist in this time period. And the word hades? Hades is a Greek god that reigned over an underworld of the same name, a spiritual prison of sorts but no fire. But the Apostles used the word and changed the definition. Christ stuck with explainations and Gehenna.

And Peter here is doing the same as they do today….finding things he can quote to suggest a Messianic prophecy. If you notice the Jews in the Old Testament did not take the scripture and start dancing and singing that the Son of God will be the Messiah and He is coming! Rejoice! Rejoice!

But words mean things in different time periods.

"Now if you find a scripture in the Old Testament that says "The The Savior Messiah will will be a God, the Son of God but He will spare our oppressors and they will kill Him but before He is crucified He will teach us the way to salvation." Then we will have something.

 

[amigo de christo]

In college there were a lot of studies on Messianic prophecies. I heard them all and all the different interpretations. Some of them pretty good. I am not saying there were not Messianic prophecies but the prophecies of the Old Testament foretold of a human warlord king Messiah. And that was what the Jews were expecting.

The Hebrew Bible….what we call the Old Testament says the Messiah would be the descendant of King David, emphasizing that he would be human. A king a warlord king that would violently take out the Jewish oppressors “the terrible day of the Lord” and put the Jews in power….world power….and a new glistening Temple would be built and sacrifices would go on forever and the Mosaic Laws would never change and would be obeyed by the whole world. And the kingdom of this king would last forever ….The Jews were not expecting for this king to be crucified.

As we know that did not happen but the Jews are still waiting for it. Some would say that the Messianic Prophecies started in Genesis. The Messiah is referenced in different ways in the Hebrew Bible but the word Messiah only appears twice in the Hebrew Bible and both in the Book of Daniel. The detailed concept of the Messiah starts with the prophets around 600 BC. Which means that the Jews today have been waiting over 2600 years for the Messiah.

In the Hebrew Bible God’s greatest enemies were the Pagans and He had the Israelites/Jews declare war on them. The whole kill all that breaths command.

But when we jump to the New Testament the Messiah is not just human, He is a God. And God loves the world and the Messiah does not declare war on the Pagans….He is out to save them and bring them into the fold.

The Jews were shocked, a slap in the face. Their oppressors would be welcomed into their religious group! Keep in mind the most horrendous things had been done to the Jews by Pagans. Tens of thousand tortured and crucified, wives raped and taken as sex slaves and men turned into slaves. The lose of the Ten Tribes.

So most of the Jews rejected Yeshua and cried Crucify Him!!! Crucify Him!!! Let His blood be on us and our children! The killers of Christ! So called by early Christians. And so it was, for centuries the Jews were persecuted and killed.

In the New Testament Yahweh greatest enemy is Satan and his demons….not the Pagans. And love and forgiveness is the theme. Love God over fear God. Forgiveness rather than a tooth for a tooth.

Now the BIG WHY? What changed between the testaments? Why did they change? We do not know the details because the Bible does not offer the details. The problem with that is that when that happens people have a tendency to fill in the blanks or fall back on what was written before or reinterpret scriptures in an attempt adjust them to what actually happened. This even lead some to add to the Old Testament things that they thought “should be there” things like the devil and Hell. The Jews did and still do not believe in the devil or Hell.

The devil and Hell are first defined in the New Testament. The concept of a place of a fiery eternal punishment was so new that they did not have a word for it. So they used explanations and adopted other words for a very real and horrible place.

Satan was in the Old Testament but was not defined as a devil. In fact Satan was combing the earth observing righteousness and reporting directly to Yahweh.

So what to do with all these Messianic prophecies? The truth is Yeshua does not need prophecies and they contribute to some Christians trying to mix the Old and New Covenant which can be disastrous. But people have been doing it for centuries….

They comb through the Old Testament looking for scriptures that might suggest the coming Messiah. Even plucking one liners out of the middle of a chapter or storyline saying it is a Messianic prophecy. The Old Testament is a large volume so looking for a verse that might mean something to do with the Messiah is very possible particularly if taking them out of context is valid. Israel is called the sons and daughters of Yahweh. King David and King Solomon are called sons of Yahweh and Ezekiel is called is called the son of God and this can be confusing because some people think they are referring to Christ.. Keep in mind that lower case and capitals are more modern grammatical. The original Hebrew Bible was written in all capitals and no spaces, so as one word. For example God and god is the same word written in capitals. Again the Messiah Yeshua does not need prophecies, all that is needed is faith.

The Old Testament is a shock. Can you imagine if there was a prophecy that foretold of Yahweh impregnating a woman that was betrothed? That is adultery according to the Mosaic Law. And if there were prophecies of the Jews involved with the Messiah’s torture and crucifixion, what would that have done to the religious beliefs of the Jews? They would have probably ran for the hills because they would have expected the wrath of God to fall on them. Killing Yahweh’s Son made things better for Mankind. Quite a shocking concept.
Considering what we do have in the scriptures…..faith is the better way.

https://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach

yet again part of this is incorrect my friend .
IT was not the old testament that foretold of a war lord etc
IT WAS THEIR OWN MISINTERPREATIONS of the prophecies that tried to make them MAKE JESUS KING on earth .
BUT In the torah , if one even bothers to read and to enjoy it
One can see the HEAVENLY KINGDOM all over it as it pointed TO THAT KINGDOM , THAT JESUS
Just cause folks misinterpret , HEY that is on them . LEAVE that HOLY BOOK alone and stop trying to make it seem
as many men make it to seem , as t hough ........
Leave the pages of that HOLY BOOK be my friend . THE heavenly can be seen IF ONE has the eyes and ears to SEE and to hear .
THE problem is not how it was written
The problem lies in MEN who love to interpret the way THEY LOVE TO SEE IT .

 

[Grailhunter]

IT was not the old testament that foretold of a war lord etc
IT WAS THEIR OWN MISINTERPREATIONS of the prophecies

Chapters on the warlord Messiah in the Old Testament.....
I think it is funny that Christians think they know more about the Hebrew Bible that Hebrews.

 

[amigo de christo]

Chapters on the warlord Messiah in the Old Testament.....
I think it is funny that Christians think they know more about the Hebrew Bible that Hebrews.

Sorry but true christains do KNOW more about the bible than unbelieving hebrews do .
They are just as infected with falsehoods as are any who rejects CHRIST is .
YOU trust in THEIR scholars and in scholars that support such .
Like the blind leading and teaching the blind .
A mere sheep knows more than the mightiest greek or hebrew scholar who pushes mans wisdom .
Oh yeah its bible time in the building .
Plus the reason so many do t rust in bad scholars is
they have no idea , have not experienced something . Any guesses on what that might be .....
Just like our false prophets
SO too do the hebrews have man y false prophets leading them as well .
TIME for an all out exodus from world wise men
and an entrodus and INTRODUCE US to JESUS moment .
Folks are way too trusting in men . And that will be their ruin .

 

[marks]

And Peter here is doing the same as they do today….finding things he can quote to suggest a Messianic prophecy.

This typifies your assertions here, and demonstrates that you do not share the same faith in God that I do, that His Word is Truth.

Peter is finding quotes he can appropriate for his personal use, apart from their intent?

No, I will not agree with you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Greetings again Grailhunter,

Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-47 (KJV): 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

Amen!!

If we understand the Scriptures we won't be making outlandish claims!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do we need them? No, not really.

We, today's Christians, accept the Old Testament only because it supports Jesus Christ. We did not begin in the Old Testament, looking for Christ. Our situation is the opposite to the Jews in the 1st century. We are born and grow up in already Christian culture.

And we, from Gentile nations, do not need Jesus Christ to fulfill some Jewish prophecies. We can accept He is the true God and the true Man, savior and Lord, without the Old Testament.

For Jews, He was the end of their era. For us, He was the beginning of our era. In other words, we accept the OT prophecies, because they witness about Christ. We do not accept Christ just because of the OT prophecies.

In my opinion.

For myself, I've learned so much of God's love for me from the Old Testament. There is something in the prophets, in the Psalms, in Ecclesiastes, that reaches to my soul, it's hard to explain. God has touched me deeply in these passages, and through them given me much healing.

I first became Christian because of the OT prophecies having been fulfilled. I recognized the Bible was unlike any other book I'd read, and I'd read a lot, everything I could get my hands on to learn the truth of this reality. But those prophecies were what convinced me.

Much love!

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the one church is made of seven generalized congregations....

1. Ephesus - Messianic Jewish Church
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

Seven candlesticks - Seven generalized congregation - All unique one to another
Seven seals - Those names written in the Lambs Book of Life
Seven stars - Those messengers to the congregations

The Messianic Christian church is the first one started by the Apostle Peter. The next church was the Gentile church started by the Apostle Paul. I would think the Messianic have the right to create their own prophecies. The most popular of these is Messianic ministries is out of Israel started by the Messianic Rabbi Zev Porat whose YouTube site is above 120 million views (Bio - Messiah of Israel Ministries)... Now... Whether you think his prophecies are needed are not is up to you!

 

[rockytopva]

And the YouTube site of the Messianic Rabbi Zev Porat

messiah ofisrael

sharing the love of Yeshua in israel and around the world

www.youtube.com

Rise and shine!