The Warless World

[Biblica]

The major reason why the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, is that to them He did not fulfill the prophecies in Isaiah 11:6-9 and 2:4. –

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the nursing child shall play on the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper’s' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. – Isaiah 11:6-9

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. – Isaiah 2:4

It is obvious that while Jesus does give believers spiritual peace, the physical aspects of the prophecies have not as yet been fulfilled. Does this negate Jesus as being the Messiah? It does not, as we shall see.

The scriptures reveal the time frame in which the prophecies of a warless world will be fulfilled. This time frame shows us that the warless world will commence after the judgment when Jesus returns. This becomes very clear to the teachable mind when we correlate Daniel 9:26 and the remaining chapters of his prophecy with Zechariah 14.

In Daniel 9:26, we are shown that an Anointed One (messiah in Hebrew) is killed and Jerusalem is subsequently destroyed. –

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined. – Daniel 9:26

Jesus was killed before Jerusalem was destroyed forty years after His death in 70AD. Then Daniel proceeds to give an accurate record of historical events, including the coming antichrist (Daniel 11:36-45), who is foreshadowed by the evil Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 11: 21-32). The turmoil that is caused by the antichrist, which includes another attack on Jerusalem, (Daniel 11:41,45, Zechariah 14:1,2) cumulates into the last judgment in Daniel 12. Therefore according to Daniel’s prophecy, there is no warless world, or benevolent messiah appearing in the world after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD to the last judgment.

In Zechariah 14 we see the LORD returning and bringing the order that has been prophesied by Isaiah. Jesus prophesied of His second coming in Matthew 24, which correlates to Zechariah 14. He also said that it would be after the attack on Jerusalem, which is also prophesied in Daniel 11:41, and which is referred to as great tribulation by Jesus in Matthew 24:21.

After Daniel received his prophecies he was told by an angel that, “…the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” – Daniel 12:9 Daniel was referred to as “greatly beloved” (Daniel 10:11,19) by God. We travel forward into time when Jesus walked the earth with His disciples. One in particular is singled out, like Daniel, as being loved by the Lord (John 13:23, 19:26). Many years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, the Apostle John received the visions contained in the book of his prophecies called Revelation. It is here in Revelation’s chapter five we are shown in verse one, a book that is sealed and is opened by Jesus in chapters six and eight and Daniel’s legacy being continued through the eyes of his future counterpart, the Apostle John. Like Daniel, he stood on the sea and witnessed a beast rise out of the water (Rev. 13); an image that Daniel also foresaw (Daniel 7:7). This last one world empire would bring evil to its fullness upon the earth, and trigger the Lord’s return to destroy it. Thus the prophecy in Isaiah 11:4 will be fulfilled. –

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. – Isaiah 11:4

As we have been shown by God’s word, the scriptures confirm that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel 9:26; the Anointed One, the Messiah, that is killed before the destruction of the city. And the remainder of Daniel’s prophecy confirms the fact that there would be no benevolent messiah or a warless world until after the judgment. Therefore the fact that Jesus did not bring in a warless world in His lifetime does not refute His being the Messiah, it actually confirms it.

As Jesus said to all of us, “He that has ears to hear, let him hear” – Matthew 11:15. Those who can hear will understand that Jesus is the Messiah, and rejoice in the prophetic accuracy of God’s holy word.

 

[Davy]

Jesus was killed before Jerusalem was destroyed forty years after His death in 70AD. Then Daniel proceeds to give an accurate record of historical events, including the coming antichrist (Daniel 11:36-45), who is foreshadowed by the evil Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 11: 21-32). The turmoil that is caused by the antichrist, which includes another attack on Jerusalem, (Daniel 11:41,45, Zechariah 14:1,2) cumulates into the last judgment in Daniel 12. Therefore according to Daniel’s prophecy, there is no warless world, or benevolent messiah appearing in the world after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD to the last judgment.

The Daniel 11:42-44 Scripture is not the final judgment with Christ's coming. Only the last phrase of Daniel 11:45 with, "... yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him," is about the time of Christ's coming to defeat His enemies on earth per Zechariah 14:1-5, which also is the time of His gathering of His elect Church with Him.

In Zechariah 14 we see the LORD returning and bringing the order that has been prophesied by Isaiah. Jesus prophesied of His second coming in Matthew 24, which correlates to Zechariah 14. He also said that it would be after the attack on Jerusalem, which is also prophesied in Daniel 11:41, and which is referred to as great tribulation by Jesus in Matthew 24:21.

That isn't following the Daniel 11 Scripture about the "vile person" (Antichrist) either. The "vile person", which is a title for the final Antichrist coming at the end of this world, will come to power as king in Jerusalem using PEACE and FLATTERY, not war.

Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

That is another way we know Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. did not fulfill that Daniel 11 prophecy about the "vile person", simply because Antiochus took Jerusalem with an army, and not by peace and flatteries.

The coming Antichrist for the end of this world will use peace and flatteries, like the Daniel 11 prophecy says, and that is the subject of the Daniel 8:23-25 verses about the "king of fierce countenance" for the end. He will destroy many using peace, and craft will prosper by his hand, it says. And Lord Jesus did remark about that in Matthew 24:6 when He showed that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, then the end is not yet, the end meaning the "great tribulation" time. The only time the final Antichrist will go to war at the end is on the final days once God's "two witnesses" finish their Testimony. And that is when Lord Jesus Christ will step in to stop it, and end this present world.

So I would be careful about jumping the gun about the timing of our Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming to finally bring peace upon the earth. The coming false-Messiah is going to do just that during the "great tribulation", i.e., bring Peace and Safety upon the earth by a one-world kingdom and a one-world religion. For the deceived, they will believe that Messiah has come when that happens.

And many today are already prepared in deception, because they do not realize that the coming tribulation will be a type of 'spiritual' war by Satan disguising himself as The Christ in Jerusalem. How will he fool the majority of the whole world by being his old self during the trib? That's what today's deceived think, that they can easily recognize the Antichrist when he comes at the end of this world, because he will work easily seen evil against God's people, they think. That is not how God's Word shows the coming Antichrist will work to deceive by the symbolic waters as a flood coming out of his mouth. Revelation 13:8 shows that the whole world will worship the "dragon" (Satan), which points to their being fooled into thinking he will be God, or Messiah having come. Only those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will not be deceived as they represent Christ's elect.

 

[Biblica]

The Daniel 11:42-44 Scripture is not the final judgment with Christ's coming. Only the last phrase of Daniel 11:45 with, "... yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him," is about the time of Christ's coming to defeat His enemies on earth per Zechariah 14:1-5, which also is the time of His gathering of His elect Church with Him.



That isn't following the Daniel 11 Scripture about the "vile person" (Antichrist) either. The "vile person", which is a title for the final Antichrist coming at the end of this world, will come to power as king in Jerusalem using PEACE and FLATTERY, not war.

Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

That is another way we know Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. did not fulfill that Daniel 11 prophecy about the "vile person", simply because Antiochus took Jerusalem with an army, and not by peace and flatteries.

The coming Antichrist for the end of this world will use peace and flatteries, like the Daniel 11 prophecy says, and that is the subject of the Daniel 8:23-25 verses about the "king of fierce countenance" for the end. He will destroy many using peace, and craft will prosper by his hand, it says. And Lord Jesus did remark about that in Matthew 24:6 when He showed that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, then the end is not yet, the end meaning the "great tribulation" time. The only time the final Antichrist will go to war at the end is on the final days once God's "two witnesses" finish their Testimony. And that is when Lord Jesus Christ will step in to stop it, and end this present world.

So I would be careful about jumping the gun about the timing of our Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming to finally bring peace upon the earth. The coming false-Messiah is going to do just that during the "great tribulation", i.e., bring Peace and Safety upon the earth by a one-world kingdom and a one-world religion. For the deceived, they will believe that Messiah has come when that happens.

And many today are already prepared in deception, because they do not realize that the coming tribulation will be a type of 'spiritual' war by Satan disguising himself as The Christ in Jerusalem. How will he fool the majority of the whole world by being his old self during the trib? That's what today's deceived think, that they can easily recognize the Antichrist when he comes at the end of this world, because he will work easily seen evil against God's people, they think. That is not how God's Word shows the coming Antichrist will work to deceive by the symbolic waters as a flood coming out of his mouth. Revelation 13:8 shows that the whole world will worship the "dragon" (Satan), which points to their being fooled into thinking he will be God, or Messiah having come. Only those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will not be deceived as they represent Christ's elect.

I think you missed the point of the whole article. It is about why the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. Daniel's prophecy shows that there is no benevolent messiah or a time of world peace until the judgment when Jesus returns. Only the antichrist appears during that time. The Jews claim that Jesus is not the Messiah because He did not bring in that time of peace, when Daniel clearly shows He was not supposed to in His earth life, only when He returns.

 

[Davy]

I think you missed the point of the whole article. It is about why the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. Daniel's prophecy shows that there is no benevolent messiah or a time of world peace until the judgment when Jesus returns. Only the antichrist appears during that time. The Jews claim that Jesus is not the Messiah because He did not bring in that time of peace, when Daniel clearly shows He was not supposed to in His earth life, only when He returns.

I didn't miss that. But those Scriptures you quoted is not the only reason they reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. They don't see Messiah as God, and one born in the flesh like Jesus claiming to be God, that's a no, no to them, just because of being born in the flesh.

Daniel 8 does... show the coming Antichrist will use peace and craft to destroy many, why would you reject that easy Scripture?

Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
KJV


Then in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul says when those who say, "Peace and safety", then the "sudden destruction" will come upon them, pointing to the "day of the Lord" with Christ's 2nd coming and end of this world. That reveals exactly what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:6, that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, the "end is not yet", that "end" meaning the "great tribulation" time, and reveals the trib will involve world peace, the opposite of a time of war.

 

[SirJamsalot]

Daniel 8 does... show the coming Antichrist will use peace and craft to destroy many, why would you reject that easy Scripture?

Have you compared the translations of that verse?

Daniel 8:25 - Bible Gateway

I get how the KJV wording might lead you there, but most translations render the phrase as “while they are at ease,” “when they feel secure,” or “without warning.” The sense is that he destroys people while they feel safe, unaware, or unprepared. The verse does not say that he establishes world peace as his means of destroying them.

In His Grip!
S.J.

 

[Davy]

Have you compared the translations of that verse?

Daniel 8:25 - Bible Gateway

I get how the KJV wording might lead you there, but most translations render the phrase as “while they are at ease,” “when they feel secure,” or “without warning.” The sense is that he destroys people while they feel safe, unaware, or unprepared. The verse does not say that he establishes world peace as his means of destroying them.

In His Grip!
S.J.

I have many other English Bible translations, so I'm well aware of the 'modern' liberal translations that appear to hide the idea of 'peace', and instead use phrases like, 'in their ease he shall destroy many', etc. Those liberal Bible translations reveal an attempt to actually hide... the idea of Antichrist bringing world peace at the end, which is how he will deceive the world and destroy souls.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 is where I understood, and clearly, that the tribulation time will be a time of world peace, (though a fake peace), but peace for the deceived nevetheless...

1 Thess 5:1-7
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

Lord Jesus also showed about the fake peace at the end for the tribulation just prior to His coming...

Matt 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

Also in Matthew 24:6, when Lord Jesus said we'd hear of wars and rumors of wars, but don't be troubled for those things must be, BUT the end is not yet, that is a direct pointer to a time of the end being the opposite of a time of war. And that means world peace.

Even in Mark 13 where Jesus forewarned His elect that some of us will be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give a Testimony for Jesus by The Holy Spirit, Jesus there showed that even deceived family or loved ones will turn us in and have us delivered up. Why? Because those of us delivered for Christ will reject the coming Antichrist that will play Jesus Christ during the coming tribulation.

Why would even our deceived loved ones turn against us in that future time? It's simple. It will because they will believe on the coming false-Messiah thinking he is our Lord Jesus Christ having returned. And obviously, their deceived pastors will tell them it's Christ, but it won't be. It will be an imposter that will exalt himself as Messiah in Jerusalem. So when those us who reject that false-Messiah, our deceived friends and loved ones will turn us in thinking they are doing Christ a service, and helping us....

Mark 13:11-12
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
KJV

Matt 10:19-22
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father Which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
KJV

Luke 21:12-17
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
KJV

Even that is a another marker that the coming tribulation time will be a time of world peace for the deceived who will wrongly worship the first supernatural Messiah that shows up in Jerusalem, with deceived Church leaders claiming that is Christ. That false-Messiah won't be pushing outward evil and chaos, otherwise the majority of the world would not be fooled by him and worshiping him. And the Revelation 12:4-8 Scripture does reveal the whole world... will worship that "dragon", except for Christ's elect whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

 

[Biblica]

I didn't miss that. But those Scriptures you quoted is not the only reason they reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. They don't see Messiah as God, and one born in the flesh like Jesus claiming to be God, that's a no, no to them, just because of being born in the flesh.

Daniel 8 does... show the coming Antichrist will use peace and craft to destroy many, why would you reject that easy Scripture?

Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
KJV


Then in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul says when those who say, "Peace and safety", then the "sudden destruction" will come upon them, pointing to the "day of the Lord" with Christ's 2nd coming and end of this world. That reveals exactly what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:6, that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, the "end is not yet", that "end" meaning the "great tribulation" time, and reveals the trib will involve world peace, the opposite of a time of war.

I know that there is more than one reason the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, but the predominate reason is that to them he did not bring in a world of peace. The passage in Daniel is concrete evidence that the messiah does not bring in world peace until the judgment. Daniel shows that there is no benevolent messiah, or a world of peace until the judgement. Daniel's prophecy does not reveal a benevolent ruler only one that invades the holy land. While the antichrist may being in a temporary peace, it is not world wide and it is not the time that is prophesied that the Jews expect.

 

[SirJamsalot]

I have many other English Bible translations, so I'm well aware of the 'modern' liberal translations that appear to hide the idea of 'peace', and instead use phrases like, 'in their ease he shall destroy many', etc. Those liberal Bible translations reveal an attempt to actually hide... the idea of Antichrist bringing world peace at the end, which is how he will deceive the world and destroy souls.

The KJV reads:

“And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many...”

The original 1611 KJV marginal note beside the word “peace” reads:

“Or, prosperity”

So “prosperity,” along with the closely related ideas of ease and security, did not originate with modern liberal translators. The Authorized Version translators themselves placed that alternate sense in the margin.

The Geneva Bible, published before the KJV, also reads “by peace.” Its annotation explains:

“That is, under pretence of peace, or as it were in sport.”

The note allows for deception carried out under the appearance or pretense of peace. It describes the manner in which the ruler destroys many; it does not say that he establishes worldwide political peace. The annotation can be read within the full Geneva commentary on Daniel 8.

The Hebrew word underlying “by peace” is shalvah. This is distinct from shalom, the more familiar Hebrew word commonly translated “peace.”

Shalvah can mean quietness, ease, prosperity, or security, including careless or false security. Brown-Driver-Briggs specifically gives, for Daniel 8:25, “in (time of) security,” and possibly “unawares.”

The KJV itself translates this same Hebrew noun, or a form of it, according to the context in which it appears:

Psalm 122:7:

“Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.”

Here shalom, translated “peace,” and shalvah, translated “prosperity,” appear together in the same verse. The psalmist prays for peace within Jerusalem’s walls and settled well-being within its palaces. Their use together shows related but distinct meanings. Shalvah describes the secure and prosperous condition enjoyed within the city.

Proverbs 1:32:

“For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.”

Here “prosperity” describes the careless ease or complacency of fools. Because they feel comfortable and secure, they ignore wisdom and remain unprepared for destruction. This usage is particularly relevant to Daniel 8:25, where ease or presumed security leaves people vulnerable to sudden destruction.

Proverbs 17:1:

“Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.”

Here shalvah means quietness, tranquility, or undisturbed rest within a household. A poor meal enjoyed in quietness is preferable to an abundant house filled with conflict. The word describes the settled condition of those within the house.

Jeremiah 22:21:

“I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice.”

Here “prosperity” means a time of ease, security, and freedom from distress. Judah felt comfortable and secure and therefore refused to listen. The passage describes complacency produced by prosperous circumstances, followed by judgment.

Ezekiel 16:49:

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”

Here the expression translated “abundance of idleness” refers to prosperous ease, undisturbed comfort, or careless security. Sodom possessed plenty and lived at ease; that comfortable condition was accompanied by pride, idleness, and indifference toward the needy.

Across these passages, shalvah describes prosperity, tranquility, quietness, ease, or complacent security. It can accompany peace, as in Psalm 122:7, but the word itself does not mean the political ending of war. In Proverbs 1:32 and Jeremiah 22:21, it describes people whose comfortable sense of security leaves them careless and unprepared for judgment.

Bullinger’s Companion Bible note explains Daniel 8:25 this way:

“by peace. by their prosperity, or careless security.”

The Hebrew phrase can therefore describe the condition of those being destroyed. They are prosperous, at ease, secure, unsuspecting, or unprepared when destruction comes. It may also allow for a pretense of peace used to keep them unsuspecting. Neither sense requires the establishment of worldwide peace.

The same distinction applies to 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Paul uses the Greek word translated “peace,” meaning tranquility or freedom from conflict, together with the word translated “safety,” meaning security or freedom from danger.

The verse tells us what people will be saying: “when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them.” Paul describes people who believe themselves to be safe immediately before unexpected judgment. The verse does not identify an Antichrist as the person who produced worldwide political peace.

Christ’s description of Noah’s day makes the same point about unawareness and unexpected judgment. They were “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” and “knew not until the flood came, and took them all away” (Matthew 24:38-39). Ordinary life continued while the people remained unaware of what was coming. Nothing in that description requires a worldwide cessation of war.

So we can retain the KJV wording “by peace,” but we still have to determine what “peace” means in that context. The KJV margin, the Geneva note, Bullinger, and the Hebrew lexicon all recognize prosperity, ease, security, or a pretense of peace. Moving from that lexical range to “the Antichrist will bring worldwide peace” depends upon an additional eschatological premise. That premise may be argued from elsewhere, but it cannot be made the definition of shalvah in Daniel 8:25.

Words have a range of possible meanings. Context determines which meaning an author intends, and we learn that range by observing how the same words are used elsewhere in Scripture. Otherwise, we risk importing a meaning into the text that the author did not intend.

That is why I do not think “ease” or “security” can fairly be dismissed as a liberal corruption. Those meanings were acknowledged by the KJV translators themselves and fit the way the word is used throughout Scripture. That is the narrow point I'm making here.

Shalom
S.J. :)

 

[Davy]

I know that there is more than one reason the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, but the predominate reason is that to them he did not bring in a world of peace. The passage in Daniel is concrete evidence that the messiah does not bring in world peace until the judgment. Daniel shows that there is no benevolent messiah, or a world of peace until the judgement. Daniel's prophecy does not reveal a benevolent ruler only one that invades the holy land. While the antichrist may being in a temporary peace, it is not world wide and it is not the time that is prophesied that the Jews expect.

There will be no TRUE world peace without Christ Jesus' return, with that I agree. But there will be a FAKE world peace presented by the coming false-Messiah who will try and be Christ, with the power of great signs, wonders, and miracles. Many will fall away to that first one coming who will deceive them with Peace and Safety. And that is what Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5, and that Lord Jesus was pointing to when He said we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, BUT the end is not yet.

 

[Davy]

The KJV reads:



The original 1611 KJV marginal note beside the word “peace” reads:



So “prosperity,” along with the closely related ideas of ease and security, did not originate with modern liberal translators. The Authorized Version translators themselves placed that alternate sense in the margin.

The Geneva Bible, published before the KJV, also reads “by peace.” Its annotation explains:



The note allows for deception carried out under the appearance or pretense of peace. It describes the manner in which the ruler destroys many; it does not say that he establishes worldwide political peace. The annotation can be read within the full Geneva commentary on Daniel 8.

The Hebrew word underlying “by peace” is shalvah. This is distinct from shalom, the more familiar Hebrew word commonly translated “peace.”

Shalvah can mean quietness, ease, prosperity, or security, including careless or false security. Brown-Driver-Briggs specifically gives, for Daniel 8:25, “in (time of) security,” and possibly “unawares.”

The KJV itself translates this same Hebrew noun, or a form of it, according to the context in which it appears:

Psalm 122:7:



Here shalom, translated “peace,” and shalvah, translated “prosperity,” appear together in the same verse. The psalmist prays for peace within Jerusalem’s walls and settled well-being within its palaces. Their use together shows related but distinct meanings. Shalvah describes the secure and prosperous condition enjoyed within the city.

Proverbs 1:32:



Here “prosperity” describes the careless ease or complacency of fools. Because they feel comfortable and secure, they ignore wisdom and remain unprepared for destruction. This usage is particularly relevant to Daniel 8:25, where ease or presumed security leaves people vulnerable to sudden destruction.

Proverbs 17:1:



Here shalvah means quietness, tranquility, or undisturbed rest within a household. A poor meal enjoyed in quietness is preferable to an abundant house filled with conflict. The word describes the settled condition of those within the house.

Jeremiah 22:21:



Here “prosperity” means a time of ease, security, and freedom from distress. Judah felt comfortable and secure and therefore refused to listen. The passage describes complacency produced by prosperous circumstances, followed by judgment.

Ezekiel 16:49:



Here the expression translated “abundance of idleness” refers to prosperous ease, undisturbed comfort, or careless security. Sodom possessed plenty and lived at ease; that comfortable condition was accompanied by pride, idleness, and indifference toward the needy.

Across these passages, shalvah describes prosperity, tranquility, quietness, ease, or complacent security. It can accompany peace, as in Psalm 122:7, but the word itself does not mean the political ending of war. In Proverbs 1:32 and Jeremiah 22:21, it describes people whose comfortable sense of security leaves them careless and unprepared for judgment.

Bullinger’s Companion Bible note explains Daniel 8:25 this way:



The Hebrew phrase can therefore describe the condition of those being destroyed. They are prosperous, at ease, secure, unsuspecting, or unprepared when destruction comes. It may also allow for a pretense of peace used to keep them unsuspecting. Neither sense requires the establishment of worldwide peace.

The same distinction applies to 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Paul uses the Greek word translated “peace,” meaning tranquility or freedom from conflict, together with the word translated “safety,” meaning security or freedom from danger.

The verse tells us what people will be saying: “when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them.” Paul describes people who believe themselves to be safe immediately before unexpected judgment. The verse does not identify an Antichrist as the person who produced worldwide political peace.

Christ’s description of Noah’s day makes the same point about unawareness and unexpected judgment. They were “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” and “knew not until the flood came, and took them all away” (Matthew 24:38-39). Ordinary life continued while the people remained unaware of what was coming. Nothing in that description requires a worldwide cessation of war.

So we can retain the KJV wording “by peace,” but we still have to determine what “peace” means in that context. The KJV margin, the Geneva note, Bullinger, and the Hebrew lexicon all recognize prosperity, ease, security, or a pretense of peace. Moving from that lexical range to “the Antichrist will bring worldwide peace” depends upon an additional eschatological premise. That premise may be argued from elsewhere, but it cannot be made the definition of shalvah in Daniel 8:25.

Words have a range of possible meanings. Context determines which meaning an author intends, and we learn that range by observing how the same words are used elsewhere in Scripture. Otherwise, we risk importing a meaning into the text that the author did not intend.

That is why I do not think “ease” or “security” can fairly be dismissed as a liberal corruption. Those meanings were acknowledged by the KJV translators themselves and fit the way the word is used throughout Scripture. That is the narrow point I'm making here.

Shalom
S.J. :)

You only arrived at the conclusion that I've been speaking of all along, that of a FAKE world peace, yet still a world peace for the DECEIVED, which is why they will be at ease. They will think that Christ had come. And the false-Messiah will indeed solve all the world's problems for the deceived who will bow to him.

Only the prophesying of God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem against the beast when they show up begins to throw a monkey wrench into false-Messiah's world peace.

Oh... and world peace is the main goal of globalist's groups like the United Nations and "one world government" hosts.

 

[Davy]

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:

Don't be deceived by these folks who keep trying to hide the Biblical fact that the coming "great tribulation" time is going to be about a false-Messiah (Antichrist) playing Christ in Jerusalem, and that means presenting WORLD PEACE to the world and solving all our earthly problems, if one will bow in worship to him. There's still many Bible Scriptures the Jews here are still not able to answer, the following be one of them with how that future false-Messiah will use PEACE and FLATTERIES to become king in Jerusalem...

Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

1 Thess.5:3
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[SirJamsalot]

You only arrived at the conclusion that I've been speaking of all along, that of a FAKE world peace, yet still a world peace for the DECEIVED, which is why they will be at ease.

I did not arrive at that conclusion. That conclusion is being inferred from information outside the text.

Your phrase “fake world peace” combines two distinct claims:

Claim 1: Deceived people believe themselves safe and secure.
Claim 2: A false Messiah has established an actual worldwide political peace which produces that confidence.

Claim 1 is consistent with the meaning of shalvah. This is where we agree.
Claim 2 is not contained in the word shalvah or stated in Daniel 8:25. <-- This is where we disagree.

Saying that people are “at ease” or unsuspecting tells us their condition when destruction comes.

It does not tell us that warfare has ceased throughout the world.
It does not tell us who created their sense of security.
It does not tell us what political arrangement supposedly produced that false sense of security.

This is precisely why I mentioned Noah’s day. Christ described people eating, drinking, marrying, and continuing with ordinary life, unaware that judgment was approaching. He emphasized their unawareness and the sudden arrival of judgment. He did not say that Noah’s generation had achieved worldwide peace. Genesis itself describes that world as corrupt and “filled with violence” (Genesis 6:11-14).

Your explanation for why these people feel secure is coming from somewhere else. It is not coming from Daniel 8:25.

You are reading your broader eschatological framework into the verse and then using the verse to support that framework. You may argue for that framework from other passages, but Daniel 8:25 cannot establish it.

The word shalvah does not carry the ideas of:

• a future false Messiah
• a worldwide government
• worldwide political peace.

Neither the KJV margin nor the KJV’s use of shalvah elsewhere supplies those details.

I am not arguing here about whether your entire eschatology is true or false. I am making a much narrower point about what Daniel 8:25 actually says.

So we agree on Claim 1: people possess a false sense of security.

We do not agree on Claim 2: that Daniel 8:25 teaches a future Antichrist will establish worldwide political peace. That conclusion comes from your broader framework, not from this passage.

That is the distinction I have been making.

In His Grip,
S.J.

 

[Davy]

I did not arrive at that conclusion. That conclusion is being inferred from information outside the text.

Your phrase “fake world peace” combines two distinct claims:

Claim 1: Deceived people believe themselves safe and secure.
Claim 2: A false Messiah has established an actual worldwide political peace which produces that confidence.

Claim 1 is consistent with the meaning of shalvah. This is where we agree.
Claim 2 is not contained in the word shalvah or stated in Daniel 8:25. <-- This is where we disagree.

Saying that people are “at ease” or unsuspecting tells us their condition when destruction comes.

It does not tell us that warfare has ceased throughout the world.
It does not tell us who created their sense of security.
It does not tell us what political arrangement supposedly produced that false sense of security.

This is precisely why I mentioned Noah’s day. Christ described people eating, drinking, marrying, and continuing with ordinary life, unaware that judgment was approaching. He emphasized their unawareness and the sudden arrival of judgment. He did not say that Noah’s generation had achieved worldwide peace. Genesis itself describes that world as corrupt and “filled with violence” (Genesis 6:11-14).

Your explanation for why these people feel secure is coming from somewhere else. It is not coming from Daniel 8:25.

You are reading your broader eschatological framework into the verse and then using the verse to support that framework. You may argue for that framework from other passages, but Daniel 8:25 cannot establish it.

The word shalvah does not carry the ideas of:

• a future false Messiah
• a worldwide government
• worldwide political peace.

Neither the KJV margin nor the KJV’s use of shalvah elsewhere supplies those details.

I am not arguing here about whether your entire eschatology is true or false. I am making a much narrower point about what Daniel 8:25 actually says.

So we agree on Claim 1: people possess a false sense of security.

We do not agree on Claim 2: that Daniel 8:25 teaches a future Antichrist will establish worldwide political peace. That conclusion comes from your broader framework, not from this passage.

That is the distinction I have been making.

In His Grip,
S.J.

Notice brethren, his side slipping of the 1 Thess.5 and Matt.24:6 Scriptures that I posted as proof that the "end" will be a time of "Peace and safety".

 

[SirJamsalot]

Don't be deceived by these folks who keep trying to hide the Biblical fact that the coming "great tribulation" time is going to be about a false-Messiah (Antichrist) playing Christ in Jerusalem, and that means presenting WORLD PEACE to the world and solving all our earthly problems...

My concern here is that this interpretive method has produced so many failed predictions and prophetic scenarios: conclusions supplied by an eschatological system are announced as “Biblical fact,” and Christians who do not find those conclusions in the cited passages are then accused of hiding Scripture.

I was born in 1968 and began paying close attention to end-times predictions during the 1980s. Harold Camping was part of the Christian circles I knew in the Bay Area of California. That made his predictions especially memorable to me. In my lifetime alone, there have been more than a dozen announced dates or narrow windows for the Rapture, Christ’s return, or the end of the present age. Here is a representative list so everyone get's the gravity of this type of consistently held and failed hype:

• 1975: Herbert W. Armstrong circulated 1975 in Prophecy, presenting 1975 as the culmination of end-time events and Christ’s return.
• 1981: Chuck Smith wrote that he was convinced the Lord would come for His Church before the end of 1981.
• 1982: Pat Robertson guaranteed that the world would experience divine judgment in the fall of 1982. His 1990 book later pointed to April 29, 2007, as the possible end of the world.
• 1988: Hal Lindsey’s generation calculation, counting forty years from the founding of Israel in 1948, led many readers to expect Christ’s return around 1988.
• 1988: Edgar Whisenant distributed millions of copies of 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988, identifying September 11 through 13 as the expected period.
• 1989, 1993, and 1994: Whisenant revised his calculation and issued additional predictions after the earlier ones failed.
• 1992: The Dami Mission predicted that the Rapture would occur on October 28, 1992.
• 1994 and 2011: Harold Camping, whom I knew of through my own Christian circles in the Bay Area, predicted September 1994, then May 21, 2011. When May passed, the expectation was moved to October 21, 2011.
• 2015: Chris McCann predicted that the earth would be destroyed on October 7, 2015.
• 2017 and 2018: David Meade proposed September 23, 2017, then shifted the expected event into October and November, and later to April 23, 2018.
• 2021: Kenton Beshore predicted the Rapture would occur by 2021 and Christ’s return between 2018 and 2028.
• 2025: Joshua Mhlakela predicted the Rapture for September 23 or 24, 2025. After those days passed, the expectation was moved into October.

That list is not exhaustive. Some predicted a particular day, others a year or narrow period. Some connected their calculations to Israel, others to wars, political unions, technological developments, prophetic “signs,” or a supposed final Antichrist.

At some point, you have to re-consider your eschatology if it flops so consistently in such short order.

Greg Bahnsen addressed precisely this problem:

Why have so many evangelical prophecies about the return of Christ proven to be so embarrassingly mistaken?... It’s embarrassing to me, especially when Time Magazine and the local news and so forth pick up on what Christians are saying about the future and about the return of Christ... And then, lo and behold, He didn’t come back. Lo and behold, things didn’t happen the way we said.

Bahnsen identified three recurring causes: historical shortsightedness, an improper preoccupation with the modern geopolitical situation of Israel, and an incorrect biblical timetable for Christ’s coming.

His corrective was straightforward:

I think you should begin in the text and work out of the text and all the details of the text what this figure is going to be, and let the text speak for itself.

That is the issue here.

Daniel 11:21 says that a “vile person” will “come in peaceably” and “obtain the kingdom by flatteries.” The verse establishes that this ruler acquires power through intrigue, smooth dealing, or deception. It does not, by itself, say that:

• he is a future final Antichrist
• he will impersonate Jesus Christ in Jerusalem
• he will establish a one-world government
• he will end warfare throughout the world
• he will solve all earthly problems
• the world must worship him in exchange for peace.

Those details are coming from an already constructed prophetic system. They are then being read back into the words “peaceably” and “flatteries.”

The surrounding chapters of Daniel demonstrate that Daniel 11 begins with Persia, moves into Greece and the division of Alexander’s kingdom, and then follows the conflicts between the kings of the north and south. The “vile person” appears within that historical sequence. A future worldwide political system cannot simply be inserted into verse 21 and then called the plain teaching of the verse.

The same limitation applies to 1 Thessalonians 5:3:

“For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them...”

Paul tells us what people will be saying immediately before unexpected judgment. He does not say that the Antichrist is speaking. He does not say who produced their confidence. He does not describe a government headquartered in Jerusalem, a worldwide cessation of war, or a false Messiah solving the world’s problems.

People can say “Peace and safety” because they feel secure while warfare, violence, and judgment remain near. Christ’s comparison with Noah’s generation makes that clear. People continued eating, drinking, marrying, and carrying on with ordinary life because they were unaware of the coming judgment. Yet Genesis describes that same world as corrupt and “filled with violence.”

Therefore, a sense of security does not establish the absence of war.

I certainly believe that Christ will return bodily and gloriously, that He will judge the living and the dead, and that Christians must remain watchful. The question is whether these particular passages establish the detailed scenario being announced as “Biblical fact.”

They do not.

You may attempt to establish that larger system from other passages, but it cannot be packed into Daniel 11:21 or the words “Peace and safety” and then used to accuse Christians who disagree of hiding Scripture.

The unbelieving world rarely distinguishes between what Scripture actually teaches and the confident additions Christians attach to it. When those additions repeatedly fail, the embarrassment and mockery fall upon the Church and upon the name of Christ.

That is why we should say everything the text says, draw every conclusion the text warrants, and stop where the text stops. A prophetic system cannot be imported into a passage and then cited as proof of itself.

In His Grip,
S.J.

 

[SirJamsalot]

Notice brethren, his side slipping of the 1 Thess.5 and Matt.24:6 Scriptures that I posted as proof that the "end" will be a time of "Peace and safety".

I did not sidestep 1 Thessalonians 5:3. I quoted it and addressed it directly.

The verse says:

“For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them...”

“There will be worldwide peace and safety” and “they shall say, Peace and safety” are two different statements. Paul tells us what people will be saying and believing immediately before unexpected destruction. He does not say that their assessment is true.

The passage does not identify an Antichrist as the speaker, say that he created their confidence, describe a government in Jerusalem, or state that warfare has ceased throughout the world. Those details are being supplied from outside the passage.

Matthew 24:6 does not establish them either:

“And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.”

Christ says that wars and reports of wars must occur and should not be mistaken for proof that the end has arrived. He does not say, “When wars cease, the end has begun.” In fact, the next verse continues with nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

“The presence of wars does not mean the end has arrived” does not logically establish “the end will be a period of worldwide peace.” That conclusion reverses Christ’s statement and supplies an opposite condition that He never stated.

So I have addressed both passages. They establish that people will claim security before sudden judgment and that wars should not be treated as proof that the end has arrived. Neither passage establishes your considerably larger scenario of a future false Messiah producing worldwide political peace.

That missing premise cannot be supplied by placing “PEACE” in capital letters. It still has to be demonstrated from the text.

 

[Davy]

Once again the deceived keep rejecting Scripture proof that the "end" of this world will be a time of peace and safety that the coming false-Christ will create to fool the whole world.

In 1 Thessalonians 5 when Apostle Paul said when they, the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them, he was definitely NOT pointing to a time of war on earth. Nor does Paul LIMIT the timeframe when the deceived will be thinking, "Peace and safety" to only be immediately prior to that "sudden destruction". Paul's whole idea is that the deceived will think that WORLD PEACE has finally come upon the earth, which to them will signal what event that will have caused it? The coming of Messiah.

Likewise with what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:6 that the "end" will not be about war...

Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV

Mark 13:7
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
KJV

Luke 21:9
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
KJV

That time of the "end" Lord Jesus pointed to is about the "great tribulation" time just prior to His future coming on the "day of the Lord." As long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, that time is not yet. Jesus made that clear as pristine spring water. And because the Apostles recorded Jesus saying that in all three of those Gospel Witness Books, one cannot simply play with the Grammar to try and change what Jesus said there. Jesus pointed to a time OPPOSITE of war and rumors of war with that, which is a time of WORLD PEACE instead.

The following Scripture also points to what Lord Jesus was saying about a time of peace at the "end"...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

The deceived will worship that "dragon", literally, at the future "great tribulation" time, the "end" of this world. Notice how those deceived will even be saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" The beast concept in Revelation is about both a beast world kingdom, and a beast world king. The deceived will be saying the above about both, who can make war with it? No one in that time, because just as Lord Jesus when He comes will be Lord over all... the earth, likewise that coming false-Messiah (beast king) will be over all peoples and nations too when he comes prior to our Lord Jesus' return.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

That 42 months is equal to the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of seven years. It is a period of 1260 days reckoned by the solar year. The difference is that 42 months is given per lunar reckoning.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The above 6-7 verses are a repeat of what the "little horn" of Daniel 7:24-25 will do at the "end" of this world.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

All that dwell upon the earth shall worship that "dragon" whose names were not written in the book of life of The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That is how much of the world that will be fooled into believing that "dragon" will be The Christ having come. And that means a false-Messiah. Then, if you DARE, look at just who God's Word declares that "dragon" is another title for, per the Revelation 12:9 verse.


So once again, why do some here REJECT the Biblical warning of a WORLD PEACE at the "end" of this world, though it will be a fake world peace the false-Messiah will bring?

 

[SirJamsalot]

Once again the deceived keep rejecting Scripture proof that the "end" of this world will be a time of peace and safety that the coming false-Christ will create to fool the whole world.

In 1 Thessalonians 5 when Apostle Paul said when they, the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them, he was definitely NOT pointing to a time of war on earth. Nor does Paul LIMIT the timeframe when the deceived will be thinking, "Peace and safety" to only be immediately prior to that "sudden destruction". Paul's whole idea is that the deceived will think that WORLD PEACE has finally come upon the earth, which to them will signal what event that will have caused it? The coming of Messiah.

Likewise with what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:6 that the "end" will not be about war...

Matt 24:6
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
KJV

Mark 13:7
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
KJV

Luke 21:9
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
KJV

That time of the "end" Lord Jesus pointed to is about the "great tribulation" time just prior to His future coming on the "day of the Lord." As long as we hear of wars and rumors of war, that time is not yet. Jesus made that clear as pristine spring water. And because the Apostles recorded Jesus saying that in all three of those Gospel Witness Books, one cannot simply play with the Grammar to try and change what Jesus said there. Jesus pointed to a time OPPOSITE of war and rumors of war with that, which is a time of WORLD PEACE instead.

The following Scripture also points to what Lord Jesus was saying about a time of peace at the "end"...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

The deceived will worship that "dragon", literally, at the future "great tribulation" time, the "end" of this world. Notice how those deceived will even be saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" The beast concept in Revelation is about both a beast world kingdom, and a beast world king. The deceived will be saying the above about both, who can make war with it? No one in that time, because just as Lord Jesus when He comes will be Lord over all... the earth, likewise that coming false-Messiah (beast king) will be over all peoples and nations too when he comes prior to our Lord Jesus' return.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

That 42 months is equal to the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of seven years. It is a period of 1260 days reckoned by the solar year. The difference is that 42 months is given per lunar reckoning.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The above 6-7 verses are a repeat of what the "little horn" of Daniel 7:24-25 will do at the "end" of this world.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

All that dwell upon the earth shall worship that "dragon" whose names were not written in the book of life of The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That is how much of the world that will be fooled into believing that "dragon" will be The Christ having come. And that means a false-Messiah. Then, if you DARE, look at just who God's Word declares that "dragon" is another title for, per the Revelation 12:9 verse.


So once again, why do some here REJECT the Biblical warning of a WORLD PEACE at the "end" of this world, though it will be a fake world peace the false-Messiah will bring?

Calling that conclusion “Scripture” does not place it in the text, and calling those who question it “deceived” does not demonstrate it.

At this point, I see no value in pursuing the exchange further. I have identified the missing premise several times, and repeating the conclusion cannot supply it.

My caution to every reader, myself included, is to guard against allowing any preconceived framework to override what God’s Word actually says. We should draw every conclusion the text warrants and stop where the text stops. Truth is discovered, not created. Our eschatology must always remain subject to correction by Scripture.

In His Grip,
S.J.

 

[Biblica]

There will be no TRUE world peace without Christ Jesus' return, with that I agree. But there will be a FAKE world peace presented by the coming false-Messiah who will try and be Christ, with the power of great signs, wonders, and miracles. Many will fall away to that first one coming who will deceive them with Peace and Safety. And that is what Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5, and that Lord Jesus was pointing to when He said we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, BUT the end is not yet.

That is not the point of my post. You are missing it altogether. The text in Daniel shows that there is no benevolent messiah or a time of peace up to the judgment. So if a Jew reads this text, he will see that there is no messiah as they anticipate and no time of peace. Therefore the argument against Jesus being the Messiah is demolished because He was supposed to have brought in that perfect world and according to Daniel he was not supposed to. If a Jew reads Daniel then he would see that any supposed Messiah who arrives is the evil one Daniel describes. Apparently the Jews have not read this text and not have not connected the dots.
The point of my post is to provide scriptural proof that Jesus is the Messiah and the text in Daniel proves that. Go show it to a Jew.

 

[Biblica]

Calling that conclusion “Scripture” does not place it in the text, and calling those who question it “deceived” does not demonstrate it.

At this point, I see no value in pursuing the exchange further. I have identified the missing premise several times, and repeating the conclusion cannot supply it.

My caution to every reader, myself included, is to guard against allowing any preconceived framework to override what God’s Word actually says. We should draw every conclusion the text warrants and stop where the text stops. Truth is discovered, not created. Our eschatology must always remain subject to correction by Scripture.

In His Grip,
S.J.

You guys have completely derailed what my post is supposed to be about.

 

[SirJamsalot]

You guys have completely derailed what my post is supposed to be about.

Biblica, you are right - we derailed your topic. Davy and I allowed a narrower disagreement about “peace” and the Antichrist to consume the thread. I sincerely apologize for my part in that.

In answer to your topic, let me offer my own perspective.

Have you considered that Christ is already seated at the right hand of the throne of God and has already begun His reign over the earth?

That question may place Isaiah’s prophecies into a different order. Perhaps the peace described by Isaiah does not wait for Christ to begin reigning after His return. It may be the historical fruit of the reign He has already received and is presently exercising.

I agree with your central confession: Jesus is the Messiah, and His failure to establish the completed peace described by Isaiah during His earthly ministry does not disprove His messiahship. I wonder, however, whether the timing in your argument is reversed.

You place Isaiah’s promised peace entirely after Christ returns and judges the world. Yet Isaiah appears to describe nations being instructed and transformed within history:

“And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD... and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths... and they shall beat their swords into plowshares.”

The nations first come to the Lord, learn His ways, and begin walking in His paths. As a consequence, warfare is suppressed and instruments of destruction are redirected toward productive purposes.

That sequence seems difficult to place after the final judgment. Once Christ returns, raises the dead, separates the sheep from the goats, and delivers the consummated kingdom to the Father, there will be no nations remaining to convert, no warfare to suppress, and no weapons requiring conversion into farm implements.

Isaiah 11 makes the same connection. The peace described by the wolf dwelling with the lamb is explained by the words:

“For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

The Root of Jesse stands as an ensign, the nations seek Him, the knowledge of God spreads throughout the earth, and peace follows. This looks like the historical fruit of Messiah’s reign as the nations are brought under His teaching.

Daniel also presents Messiah’s kingdom as beginning and growing within history. In Daniel 2, the stone strikes the image during the period of the earthly empires, becomes a mountain, and fills the earth. In Daniel 7, the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days and receives dominion, glory, and a kingdom.

The direction here makes a difference, IMO. The Son approaches the Father in heaven and receives His kingdom. This corresponds naturally to Christ’s resurrection, ascension, and enthronement at the Father’s right hand.

Paul then says that Christ “must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet,” with death identified as the last enemy (1 Corinthians 15:25-26). Christ reigns now, His enemies are progressively subdued, and death is finally destroyed at the resurrection when He returns.

That places Isaiah’s conversion of the nations and suppression of warfare during Christ’s present reign, before His return. The final judgment brings that historical work to its consummation.

I also have difficulty reading Daniel 11 as a simple chronological continuation after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Daniel 10 through 12 introduces another vision that begins again with Persia, proceeds into Greece and the divided Greek kingdom, and then describes Antiochus Epiphanes. The narrative has already returned to events centuries before Christ. A separate argument would therefore be needed to establish that Daniel 11:36 suddenly moves thousands of years forward to a final Antichrist.

The same question arises in Matthew 24. Jesus places “all these things,” including the Great Tribulation, within “this generation” (Matthew 24:34). Luke’s parallel identifies the approaching desolation with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. That points me toward the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 rather than another attack shortly before the final judgment.

The view I am describing is postmillennialism. Greg Bahnsen presents it far better, and much more warmly, than I can in a forum post. I would sincerely recommend his free three-part audio series, Why I Am a Postmillennialist?.

The three recordings cover:

• The chronology of history;
• The nature of Christ’s kingdom; and
• Christ’s expectation for His earthly kingdom.

Bahnsen works directly through Isaiah 2 and 11, Daniel 2 and 7, Psalm 72, the Great Commission, and 1 Corinthians 15. His basic point is that the peace promised by Isaiah is the historical result of the nations being converted and taught God’s ways.

So I agree with you that Isaiah promises something much greater than private spiritual peace. My difference concerns when that promise is fulfilled. I believe Christ has already received His kingdom, is presently subduing His enemies through the gospel, and will fulfill these promises in history before He returns to destroy the last enemy and consummate His reign.

Again, I apologize for helping to pull your original topic into the ditch.

In His Grip,
S.J.