Matthew 24:30 may have a significant mistranslation

[Ronald David Bruno]

"Every eye will see Him" Revelation 1:7 past, present, and future. Every eye.

But let the reader understand--the qualifying point of this passage is not seeing Him in this world, but "coming with the clouds of heaven", meaning: in the spirit. In other words, when all are spiritually raised up in the resurrection--when the flesh returns to the dust and every element of this world are dissolved--every eye will come before God (--"God with us"). Which is life everlasting to some, and death to some.

Wow, there you go again with your symbolic mumbo-jumbo. In Acts 1:9-11 the two angels state specifically that His return will be in the same manner as His exit. Capesce?

 

[HealthyShape]

Didn't say it was. I asked you if you had the Holy Spirit. In order to discern scripture, you must commune with the Spirit. Are you born again?

Of course.

To be on the safe side, you must be born again. Your posts lack this discernment wherever I read your posts -- your off and miss the mark.

And now you created a stupid and needless problem for yourself - I am born again, but you claim my posts lack discernment. If you did not play this card, we could just disagree, but now you made it about salvation, basically.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn/(koptō), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail/(koptō) because of him. Even so, Amen.

Even if you enlarged those words further, Amillennialists just won't get it. I think they are spiritually blind. It just conflicts with their view, so they either say it happened or offer some esoteric symbolic explanation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Even if you enlarged those words further, Amillennialists just won't get it. I think they are spiritually blind. It just conflicts with their view, so they either say it happened or offer some esoteric symbolic explanation.

Stop being so ignorant about what others believe. You are talking about preterists. Not all Amillennialists are preterists. I'm an Amillennialist and fully agree that it's talking about all of the tribes of the earth and not just the land of Israel. I do not believe that Jesus came in 70 AD as preterists do. Scripture is clear that, as you said yourself in another post, when He comes He will come in like manner as He left. That means His second coming will be visible. And it will be visible to all people on earth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Of course.

And now you created a stupid and needless problem for yourself - I am born gain, but you claim my posts lack discernment. If you did not play this card, we could just disagree, but now you made it about salvation, basically.

I just don't see how the Spirit of Truth would guide both of us in opposite directions. I believe Cathilocs and Protestans are saved, yet hold different views. Even within the Protestant camp, when we talk prophecy, it goes off in many directions.
It is quite baffling. I used to listen to RC Sproul and his teachings were sound until he got to eschatology. He was a Partial - Peterist too. Hank Hanegraff was another one. But then I read his book on Revelation and it sounded so wrong - symbolic mumbo jumbo.
Parents will lead and guide two sons in the same way, with the same morals snd discipline, yet sometimes they go off in different directions. One could be a doctor and the other into drugs and a lower. But I do see evidence ( and the Bible uses parables to explain it) that some among us aren't really saved. Not all church goers are born again. Some are tares, some on the fence not really trusting in Jesus or the scriptures, who are filled with doubts about everything. The seed gets planted in shallow soil but later on they fall away. Maybe concerning eschatology, the Holy Spirit remains silent, keeps it a mystery for a purpose?

 

[HealthyShape]

I just don't see how the Spirit of Truth would guide both of us in opposite directions. I believe Cathilocs and Protestans are saved, yet hold different views. Even within the Protestant camp, when we talk prophecy, it goes off in many directions.
It is quite baffling. I used to listen to RC Sproul and his teachings were sound until he got to eschatology. He was a Partial - Peterist too. Hank Hanegraff was another one. But then I read his book on Revelation and it sounded so wrong - symbilic mumbo jumbo.
Parents will lead and guide two sins in the same way, with the same morals snd discipline, yet sometimes they go off in different directions. One could be a doctor and the other into drugs and a lower. But I do see evidence ( and the Bible uses parables to explain it) that some among us aren't really saved. Not all church goers are born again. Some are tares, some on the fence not really trusting in Jesus or the scriptures, who are filled with doubts about everything. The seed gets planted in shallow soil but later on they fall away. Maybe concerning eschatology, the Holy Spirit remains silent, keeps it a mystery for a purpose?

Being a Christian does not mean people receive some heavenly knowledge about everything. It is a change of character and faith in Christ. Regarding other things, we study, learn and reason as every other rational being.

Having opinions, feelings or trust in some theology is not the Holy Spirit guiding.

Problem solved?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Being a Christian does not mean people receive some heavenly knowledge about everything. It is a change of character and faith in Christ. Regarding other things, we study, learn and reason as every other rational being.

Having opinions, feelings or trust in some theology is not the Holy Spirit guiding.

Problem solved?

Certainly God gives us bits and pieces as He grows our faith and so some have strong faith and knowledge and others weak. But the Eschatology problems aren't yet solved. When every eye sees Him, they will be.

 

[HealthyShape]

Certainly God gives us bits and pieces as He grows our faith and so some have strong faith and knowledge and others weak. But the Eschatology problems aren't yet solved. When every eye sees Him, they will be.

Reading "every eye will see Him" literally is... well, hyperliteralism.

But I bet you are not reading the words "soon" or "the time is near" from the same book as literal. Correct? So, you are reading images and metaphors literally and the time frame you dismiss as "symbolic".

Completely wrong reading, IMO. Irrational.

 

[ScottA]

Wow, there you go again with your symbolic mumbo-jumbo. In Acts 1:9-11 the two angels state specifically that His return will be in the same manner as His exit. Capesce?

"Mumbo-Jumbo" Elementary Lesson:

• Lamb = Jesus
• Sheep or Wheat = Christians
• Tares = Ungodly or Demons
• Bread = God's Word

Mumbo-Jumbo advanced question #1

1. If "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", in what form did "Christ the Firstfruits" go to inherit it?

 

[ScottA]

That means His second coming will be visible. And it will be visible to all people on earth.

“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also." John 4:19

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation;" Luke 17:20

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also." John 4:19

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation;" Luke 17:20

Don't quote verses to me with no commentary. I'm not going to guess as to what your point is here. Is there something you don't understand about the following passage...

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Jesus was literally seen ascending up towards heaven and the angels standing there said that He will come from heaven in like manner as they SAW Him go up towards heaven with their own two eyes. So, His return from heaven will be physically visible just as His ascension to heaven was. Very simple. But, I don't expect you to be able to understand simple things since you make everything convoluted.

 

[ScottA]

Don't quote verses to me with no commentary. I'm not going to guess as to what your point is here. Is there something you don't understand about the following passage...

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Jesus was literally seen ascending up towards heaven and the angels standing there said that He will come from heaven in like manner as they SAW Him go up towards heaven with their own two eyes. So, His return from heaven will be physically visible just as His ascension to heaven was. Very simple. But, I don't expect you to be able to understand simple things since you make everything convoluted.

I convoluted nothing--I only quoted scripture.

Nor was any commentary necessary, as my quoting the scriptures should have been enough to tell you that you have erred because you have not reconciled all of what is written on the matter.

I do understand how eyes of flesh seeing Jesus ascend into heaven would see that as an indication of how He would return--but that is not what is written, nor is it what was happening. That was not flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God--but Christ the firstfruits transitioning from the flesh to the spirit of God--He was going to be One again with the Father whom is spirit. God is spirit.

But what--those of the flesh would rather He not return in the glory of the Father, but return again, lowering Himself again, because that is all they saw--not seeing the spirit? What then are you even now advocating for--flesh and blood?

To the contrary "do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." For "these things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Reading "every eye will see Him" literally is... well, hyperliteralism.

But I bet you are not reading the words "soon" or "the time is near" from the same book as literal. Correct? So, you are reading images and metaphors literally and the time frame you dismiss as "symbolic".

Completely wrong reading, IMO. Irrational.

Did you test your symbolism with the angel's literal statement about Jesus returning in like manner as you saw him leave? (Acts 1 :9-11) You did not attempt to.
Go ahead and try to present a symbolic interpretation of those verses. Finding scriptures that support the doctrine is crucial.The Bible is in harmony with itself.

 

[NotTheRock]

The scope of His second coming is global and not local because it will result in heaven and earth passing away, so that should tell you how to understand that verse as speaking of the entire planet earth and not just the land of Israel.

That's what I believed too, but this statement by Paul indicates Jesus returning for a second time but for a limited purpose, which apparently occured in 70 AD as Jesus said he would.

Hebrews 9:28
English Standard Version
28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[NotTheRock]

A local 70AD mini-glorious-appearing-and-rapture?

Isn't that what Paul was describing here?

Hebrews 9:28
English Standard Version
28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[ProDeo]

A local 70AD mini-glorious-appearing-and-rapture? I don't see anything in Josephus or recorded in Church history of that happening. Of course, people disappear during the chaos of a war all the time, and anybody who might've cared enough to keep records might have been raptured themselves. Could happen.

Josephus about AD 70

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus,[Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

Tacticus about AD 70

Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: "The gods are departing": at the same moment the p199 mighty stir of their going was heard.⁠[URL='https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/5A*.html#note44']44[/URL] Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world.⁠[URL='https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/5A*.html#note45']45[/URL] This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity.

Jesus

Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Paul

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I think you can make a plausible case that the Lord came to rescue His children in the air from the upcoming judgement.

Meaning, not a bodily return.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Mumbo-Jumbo advanced question #1

1. If "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", in what form did "Christ the Firstfruits" go to inherit it?

The kingdom of God which we now possess is spiritual. Jesus' resurrected body is a spiritual body, but like the angels, can appear physically - as He will appear. Maybe you didn't learn the Prophetic lesson in the Lord's Prayer?
" ...Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven ...,"
I guess you've been praying that prayer for a lifetime and not really knowing it meant?

 

[MonoBiblical]

The kingdom of God which we now possess is spiritual. Jesus' resurrected body is a spiritual body, but like the angels, can appear physically - as He will appear. Maybe you didn't learn the Prophetic lesson in the Lord's Prayer?
" ...Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven ...,"
I guess you've been praying that prayer for a lifetime and not really knowing it meant?

The woke body was after he died on the cross, and the resurrected body was after 3 days. I would hope not to need a resurrected body like Lazarus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I convoluted nothing--I only quoted scripture.

You quoted scripture that had nothing to do with what I had said. And I already know how convoluted your beliefs are.

Nor was any commentary necessary, as my quoting the scriptures should have been enough to tell you that you have erred because you have not reconciled all of what is written on the matter.

LOL. You are completely delusional, as always.

I do understand how eyes of flesh seeing Jesus ascend into heaven would see that as an indication of how He would return--but that is not what is written, nor is it what was happening.

It specifically says He would come from heaven in like manner as He ascended there. The manner in which He ascended is explicity described. It says they literally saw Him go up towards heavens. So, His ascension to heaven was visible and He descension from heaven will also be visible. Everyone will literally see Him whether you can comprehend that or not. No amount of twisting of the text by the likes of you can change that. You are not someone to be taken seriously. That has been established long ago already.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's what I believed too, but this statement by Paul indicates Jesus returning for a second time but for a limited purpose, which apparently occured in 70 AD as Jesus said he would.

Hebrews 9:28
English Standard Version
28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

We are still awaiting His second coming, which is the blessed hope of the appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ. No amount of preterist nonsense can change that.