"what shall be the sign of thy coming"
- Thread starter Douggg
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
In John 1:10, speaking about Jesus...
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
In Ezekiel 39:22, Jesus speking in the text, having returned to this earth...
Ezekiel 39:
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Of course it does.
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Obviously, these passages are referring to the same event. After all, how many times should we assume the Lord God is going to come with all of His saints?
Therefore, the LORD my God = our Lord Jesus Christ.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is a lot to respond to so I’ll break it up...for the benefit of the readers here who deserve the truth....a very inconvenient truth for many.
“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.” (ESV)
So Jesus tells us that in order to gain eternal life, we need to know “the only true God AND Jesus Christ” whom he “sent”.
If Jesus is God, then why does he present his Father as “the only true God” without including himself or the the third ‘person’, who are all supposedly the same God?
If we can’t figure that out from the Scriptures, then the whole basis for our faith has collapsed.
If we are worshipping the wrong “theos” then we have breached the first Commandment.
We have to worship the same God as Jesus did....the same God that the apostles did.
1 Cor 8:5-6...collectively they said.....
“For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (ESV)
They didn’t say “one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...did they?
Of course it’s not your problem.....but what IS in your control, is the same as it is for all of us.....what we choose as our “truth” will determine which road we are travelling. Remember that the deluded majority will not know that they are on the wrong path until they hear Jesus’ rejection. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)
Well, one of the “essentials” that determines who has accepted the truth or not, is outlined by Jesus himself in John 17:3-4, as a salvation issue.
“And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.” (ESV)
So Jesus tells us that in order to gain eternal life, we need to know “the only true God AND Jesus Christ” whom he “sent”.
If Jesus is God, then why does he present his Father as “the only true God” without including himself or the the third ‘person’, who are all supposedly the same God?
If we can’t figure that out from the Scriptures, then the whole basis for our faith has collapsed.
If we are worshipping the wrong “theos” then we have breached the first Commandment.
We have to worship the same God as Jesus did....the same God that the apostles did.
1 Cor 8:5-6...collectively they said.....
“For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (ESV)
They didn’t say “one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...did they?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
When you quote Scripture, you betray any real understanding of what is said, and instead read with Christendom’s blinkers on.
What is Paul saying here that agrees with everything else that is written about the God he thought he once knew, and was prepared to put to death any who opposed his beliefs, as blasphemers?
We won’t all get a tap on the shoulder like he did.
What does this passage really say, as opposed to what you think it does?
1) We have to “confess the Lord Jesus” and “believe that God raised him from the dead”.....so who raised Jesus? His God or himself?
2) What does it mean to “believe in him”? What does that encompass? Is it just a mental acknowledgment that involves a declaration of faith? In view of James’ words at James 2:18-20....
“But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?”(ESV)
“Belief” alone can be held by God’s worst enemies. If the demons “believe” then what does that mean for Christians? We have to have the “works” that back it up.....we have to put those beliefs into action.
One way we do that is by obeying Jesus command to preach about God’s Kingdom.....and it’s good news to those who really listen. Most in Christendom have no idea what the the Kingdom is and what it will accomplish for redeemed mankind. (Matt 24:13)
3) “there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him”.
In the environment of the time, nationality mostly identified a person’s religious beliefs. Only the Jews worshipped “the true God”, all other gods were false. In order to worship the one true God, a gentile had to convert to Judaism and come under the Law of Moses. The God of the Jews was one God. They then had to ditch their multiple gods in order to worship Yahweh acceptably.
Deut 6:4...the Shema...
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord (YAHWEH) our God, the Lord (YAHWEH) is one.” (ESV)
In Hebrew the Tetragrammaton is recorded twice in that verse, making it clear who their “one God” was.
So when it says “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved”....that is a quotation from Joel 2:32 where the divine name is again clearly visible. God’s name is Yahweh. Jesus is never called Yahweh.
So those calling on the wrong name, of the wrong god, will conversely, NOT be saved.
If you read Scripture without understanding who it was written to, and how they understood what was said, you end up like Christendom....hopelessly divided and fragmented, as they bicker about who said what.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Read through what I have shown you, if pride will allow you to, and respond with Scriptural evidence.
Do you understand why the title “Lord” (Kyrios) was substituted for God’s name in the first place?
What you state is clearly lacking understanding of why things were stated the way they were, and how easy it was for Satan to twist it all out of shape to substitute his counterfeit “Christianity” in the world of which he is its god and ruler. (1 John 5:19)
Jesus and the apostles foretold this apostasy, and yet very few can see it. It took place many centuries ago and is today still accepted as the real thing......but it never was...hence Jesus’ statement “I never knew you”....NEVER means “not ever”.
Those who think that they are “wheat” will be shown to be “weeds”.
Oh please.....you do understand that Jesus wasn’t a Christian, don’t you? He lived and died as a Jew.
All of his first disciples were Jewish. So unless you understand Jesus’ teachings through a Jewish lens, you will not have the truth.
Yes, and that “great multitude” are identifying as Christians who “come out of the great tribulation”. Revelation was written well after the destruction of Jerusalem. So this was a future “great tribulation” which the world had not yet experienced......it will be global in scope, and worse than even the flood of Noah’s day.
Buckle up....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What does Rom 6:7 actually say?
NWT...”For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”
ESV...”For one who has died has been set free from sin.”
KJV...”For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
NLT...”For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.”
So what is the word in Greek that the NWT translates as “acquitted”?
“dikaioō” is the Word and it means.....
“to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:—free, justify(-ier), be righteous.”
So what is Rom 6:7 actually saying? That one who has died is no longer under the penalty of sin, which is death. They have been ‘acquitted’ or ‘freed’ from its death dealing penalty, having paid sins wages, they are now awaiting their resurrection from the grave in which all the dead are still held. Jesus is the one who will call them from their graves (John 5:28-29) to a new life on earth, where sin is no more...and therefore it’s penalty is also removed.
Christ’s blood has ransomed all the dead, who await one of two separate resurrections.
The “first resurrection” (Rev 20:6) is for all those chosen for a new life in heaven as “heirs with Christ” in his Kingdom.
These “chosen ones” (Rev 14:1-5) are heaven bound....whereas those who still “sleep” in “Sheol/hades” will receive their resurrection when Christ has established his kingdom rule over the whole earth.
Not all Christians will go to heaven.....because the ones who do are given positions as “kings and priests” and these will rule redeemed mankind and restore pure worship to those who are restored to life on earth in paradise conditions as God first intended. (Acts 24:15)
There is no such thing as an “immortal soul” that lives on after the death of the body. No Scripture teaches this.
If you understand the difference between the “soul” and the “spirit” as the Bible teaches it, you will find that these are two different words with very different meanings.
A “soul” is a living breathing creature...animals and humans are called “souls” in Scripture....both experience the same death. (Eccl 3:18-20)
A “spirit” is an immaterial entity, either God, or an angel or a demon when personified, but the word means “breath” when applied to souls created to live on earth. All souls have the same “spirit” (breath)
If you would like to explore that concept in the Bible, I am happy to do that. Give us your Scriptural “proof” for an immortal soul and I will show you where the Scriptures contradict your beliefs.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
First of all, who are “ all the saints” that accompany “the Lord my God” as Zechariah stated?
The word in Hebrew is “qāḏôš” and it means....
- “sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart
And who was Zechariah’s “Lord and God”? As a devout Jew, it was Yahweh, who alone was “the God of Israel”. (Deut 6:4)
What is the “valley of the mountains” that was a place of safety?
Valleys between mountains were often a refuge from danger as sentries posted on those mountains could see the enemy approaching and sound an alarm. So, since this was described as “my mountains” which were split in two, creating a place of refuge and protection, and Yahweh has assigned Jesus as his appointed judge, bringing with him all his holy ones, which would include his angelic forces as well as those of his “saints” who are already in heaven.
This verse doesn’t mean what you think it does. This is why we need to study the Bible, not just read it and have the church system dictate its meaning, with no real Scriptural back-up. Suggestions are not facts. Facts establish truth.
Read those words again....”establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”
What is it NOT saying?.... “in holiness before God, (even our Father), at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”
The words in brackets differentiate ‘God the Father’ from their “Lord Jesus Christ”....this is two separate entities. Nowhere does the Bible say that they are one and the same “God”. And as usual the third “person” is invariably missing from the conversation.
Do you see what you did there? You turned an assumption into a truth.
If you understand why God’s name is missing from Scripture, you need to educate yourself from outside of Christendom’s “theology” to determine how the concept of the trinity even entered the monotheistic faith of the first Christians. Since all the first Christians were Jewish...they would never have accepted Jesus as God. They expected their Messiah to be a Jewish male born in the tribe of Judah, through David’s royal line, in the little town of Bethlehem as it was foretold. And that is exactly who he presented himself to be.
He was not 100% God and 100% Human because that is not possible. Jesus was never 200% anything...he was what he needed to be to pay the set price for our redemption.....a perfect sinless human life was given in exchange for the one we lost due to Adam’s sin. As an immortal, God cannot die.
John 10:31-36 was a perfect opportunity for Jesus to claIm to be “God” because they wanted to stone him to death for blasphemy anyway.....for even claiming to be “the son of God”, which is all he ever called himself.
If the divine name had still been in use, the trinity would never have been accepted as truth.
John 1:1 for example, would have read...”In the beginning was the Word (ho logos) and the Word (ho logos) was with Yahweh (ho theos) and the Word (ho logos) was divine.” (theos)
It was “ho logos” who became flesh, not “ho theos”.
The word “theos” in Greek can mean any deity or divine personage. It is not used for God alone.
The title “Lord” was common in Bible times and was an address of respect....it is not a substitute for the Divine Name, which the Jews had long before, eliminated from their speech...though it was retained in their Scripture.
All those passages in the Hebrew writings where the Tetragrammaton was freely used by the writers, was taken out of their Scripture by those who translated the Bible into English, but they had no right to do so. There is no command from Yahweh to take his name out of his own Scripture...just the opposite. (Exodus 3:15)
If it had been retained, there could be no debate about this very emotive subject. But, among other things, it is separating the “sheep” from the “goats”.
Passages like Rev 3:12 would be fully understood because Jesus called his Father “my God” four times in that one verse....and this was long after his return to heaven. If it makes sense to you for God to worship his equal self in heaven, then you can believe that if you wish....I’ll believe the whole of the Bible, not just the cherry picked verse that Christendom presents, to make you think it suggests something it never mentions.
Last edited:
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is a scripture that gets thrown about a lot, but Thomas wasn’t saying what most in Christendom assume, because the word “theos” in Greek has many meanings other than what Christendom gives it.
According to Strongs....”theos” means....
- “a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”
So any deity or divine personage can be referred to as “theos” without it inferring deity.
It can also mean....
- “refers to the things of God
- his counsels, interests, things due to him
- whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
- God's representative or viceregent
- of magistrates and judges”
- God's representative or viceregent
Referring to Jesus as “theos”, when Thomas was an apostle who would not have held beliefs different to his fellow apostles, who said collectively.....
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.” (NKJV)
For all the apostles, there was just “one God, the Father” AND “one Lord Jesus Christ”.
Calling Jesus “theos” was acknowledging his divinity, his divine origin, not his deity.
Let me ask you this then. Who is it that the text has coming with all the saints in 1 Thessalonians 3:13? Just Jesus Christ? Or the Father as well? Why that matters is because Zechariah 14:5 plainly says the Lord God is coming with all of His saints. There couldn't possibly be 2 different comings of someone coming with all the saints. Therefore, either Jesus Christ and the Lord my God are one and the same, or both passages have both the Father and Son coming with all the saints.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Like the word “savior” has one meaning but different applications, it means that God is a savior but so is Jesus in the sense that God sent his son to be a savior and it is according to his rules and demand for justice that his son was going to be “sent” at the appointed time to be that savior.
Both Father and son are Saviors, just as they are both Kings....Jesus sits on his Father’s throne, which is co-regency.....one is appointed by the other...but it is always the Father doing the appointing. It is his justice that is carried out, facilitated by his son as his appointed judge and executioner.
And just as in creation, it is teamwork, carried out by both. The Father is using the agency of the Son to facilitate the implementation of his Father’s will. Jesus did nothing of himself but was always giving credit and glory to his God and Father. The Father is still the God of Jesus, even in heaven.....(Rev 3:12)
Last edited:
1 Thess. 3: 13 refers to the saints who are asleep in Christ. (see 4: 14) That is the context of the letter. The timing is before the Day of the Lord - the gathering together of the Body of Christ.
Zech. 14: 5 does NOT say `saints.` The Hebrew ward is `holy ones.` Thus we need more scriptures to find out who those `holy ones are. Jesus Himself tells us that it is the angels that come with Him in power and great glory.
`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)
`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)
`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)
`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)
The timing there is at the end of the trib, when the Lord comes with His angelic army to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Just one question....who is the “Israel” that is saved...and who are “the rebellious” who will be counted as “goats” by Jesus at that time of judgment?
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,494
- 1,698
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
LOL, you contradict yourself. Jesus was called God because he was God, God the Son specifically.
- Jul 11, 2015
- 8,494
- 1,698
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
Israel who will be saved are those who `feared the LORD.`
`Those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD listened and heard them; so a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who meditate on His name.
"They shall be mine," says the LORD of hosts. "On the day that I make them my jewels. And I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him." (Mal. 3: 16 & 17)
The rebellious, symbolized by the goats who did not care for the Lord`s brethren the Jews in the trib.
`Then He will answer them saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." (Matt. 25: 45)
God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However, in function they work in a hierarchy.
Divine Procession.
Godhead - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,
Father - with the initial movement of the Father;
Son - the administration of the Son;
Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit proceeds
* from the Father and
* from the Son and
* so through the Body of Christ and it members.
* and by each individual Gift, to the requisite place of requirement.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I will ask you to provide one Scripture that says “God the Son” or one that says “God the Holy Spirit”.
I can find “God the Father” but I cannot locate a clear unequivocal statement concerning the other two..
All I see are suggestions and inferences...no one can make a doctrine on circumstantial evidence...and my studies have revealed too many Scriptural reasons to reject it.
God is “one” and always was. Deut 6:4 clearly stated that for God’s people, there was “one Yahweh”...no trinity. Monotheism doesn’t allow for more than one God. So putting three different persons in one “head” or “body” is not something I can find anywhere in the Bible.
I have presented my evidence and the readers can make up their own minds about whether a trinity is something Jesus taught, or not.
Being made in God’s image, multiple personality disorder would be normal, but for us it is a psychiatric disorder. We are a single entity and so is our Creator. I see no evidence to the contrary.
The trinity is a “Catholic” invention because it wasn’t even introduced into the Roman Catholic Church as an official doctrine until the 4th century....and then it was through much controversy...so it didn’t land easily....not everyone was on board. We are still arguing about it.....something that would be impossible if there was one clear unequivocal statement concerning it. There clearly isn’t.
Don’t we have to ask why the trinity is basically illogical, has no real support by way of a clear statement in Scripture, and has so many contradictory Scriptures that show why it can’t be correct?
I have examined all Scripture carefully and come to the conclusion that the evidence is weak, which is strange because it is a foundational doctrine...if you build on a weak foundation, the whole building will collapse.....so, what if it’s false and the devil has you all worshipping the wrong God? Have you ever contemplated if that was a reality? Who will Jesus words fall on in Matt 7:21-23?
It will be the “many”, not the ”few”.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1Corinthianss13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.)
1Peter1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Similar threads
