Faith alone

[Davy]

The following from the post #31 by @PinSeeker :

Abraham believed before the law was given...

And he believed because he was called by God...

Davy: yes, but each soul must be responsible for their own choice to believe God, or not believe. Calvinist fate doctrines are not Biblical.

...before he did anything beforehand...

Right, even believing. God called him, and then he believed God.

Davy: it's still about one's choice. Abraham believed God's Promise, and because he had that FAITH that God would accomplish what He promised, it was for that reason that God counted Abraham's FAITH as righteousness. It is the same for all those of Faith in Christ Jesus.

...God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness.

Abraham was credited as righteous, right, but not because he had any righteousness of his own. And he received this credit of righteousness because he believed God, right, but he believed God because he was called by God. And this is the case for every single one of us Christians. Hebrews 13 even begins with, "By faith, Abraham..." This is how every single one of us are saved.

Davy: I never tried to assign Abraham as being righteous of himself. And Abraham believed God by 'choice'. You are placing the idea of being 'called' to mean automatic salvation, when it does not mean that. It means being called 'to make a choice' without undue influence. But being 'chosen', that's different, and it does mean God's Hand upon one that He 'already owns' and has ordained a duty for in His service (see Christ's prayer of John 17 about Christ's Apostles which The Father already owned previously and gave to Jesus, vs. those who would come to believe by the preaching of The Gospel by those Apostles. That's two different groups, the 'chosen' vs. the 'called' only). Apostle Paul was one such specific example of a chosen sent one. The majority of us are not chosen, but called only. And the 'called only' can... fall away, while God's chosen cannot, i.e., His "very elect".

The works in Christ are a natural byproduct of Faith...

Exactly right. You seem to have changed your tune from some time ago. Which is great! <smile>

Davy: not really. I never said or even inferred... that works is what saves us.

I have always held to the Biblical fact (Romans) that we are saved only by Faith on Jesus Christ, and not by our works. Yet I do... stress like Apostle James, that IF... one truly has Faith, they will also have works in Christ, for like Jesus also said, where our heart is, that also is where our treasure will be. And Jesus also showed in Matthew 25 that He will reject the "unprofitable servant" who just buried the one talent he was given to work for his master.

Then after Abraham had believed, he was circumcised as a symbol of his Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. For those in Christ, we are baptized of water for that.

Well, why was Abraham commanded to administer this sign/seal of circumcision to eight-day-old infants? <smile> And likewise, why should we as believers baptize infants? Because we should... <smile>

Davy: not sure what you are trying to associate in that above. Flesh circumcision is not a requirement for Christ's Salvation. Nor is water baptism absolute either IF... one is not able (like someone on their death bed that then converts to Jesus, or like the malefactor crucified with Jesus who believed.) But we are... commanded to do water baptism, and have no excuse if we are able, and Lord Jesus set that example for us by His Own water baptism by John the Baptist.

 

[bro.tan]

Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection. And some of you won’t even give up some of the littlest things like, going to church on Sunday, the pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter, praying to the Virgin Mary, I could go on and on. And most so-called Christians know these rituals have nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible, but a lot of work get put into them. But do they understand that they are offensive to God? Maybe it’s because they have more faith in man than God, maybe it’s because they fear how man is going to treat them, and don’t fear God. But listen up; (v.27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Now these are the words of Jesus (the Son of man), you know the savior of the world. He said that when he comes he is going to judge every man according to his works. Don't be deceived thinking you all you need to do is have faith in the Lord and you will be saved?

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works.

 

[nedsk]

This is part of your O/P. Faith is sufficient for salvation when that faith is accompanied by revelation of God's truth. Then that revelation is taken up in the heart and received. When belief in what God has revealed is received, it becomes faith. You may not believe this but it's your choice. Believing can also be an action (works) because it is an expression, an exchange from unbelief to belief.

Then you don't know what the word sufficient means. It's amazing.

 

[nedsk]

Well, dear, it is out of context; any person reading this can clearly see that.

Lol no sweetheart, scripture is clear. How many time do you people need to see it? Your faith alone doctrine isn't scriptural

 

[nedsk]

I am not going to argue with you, as I would not like to devalue your thread by answering a strawman's argument because it is a relevant discussion that requires investigation, placing it up against the measuring line of the word of God.

I'm not arguing either I just stating what the facts are. Faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. I know you can't accept that truth because you're a disciple of Luther.

 

[nedsk]

You are ignorant of a great many things. It would be wise to be more humble. Of course the Lord knows genuine faith. However, the angelic principalities and powers do not. Nor do the satanic powers of darkness. Read Job 1 for a test of faith that God permitted even though He knew beforehand what the result would be.
Read Job 1,Isa 6:1-8 and 1Kings 22:19-23 for a glimpse into the Divine council.

Faith validated is still faith alone. The works are just the fruit of it. HOWEVER, I agree "sola fide" is not accurate. It is GRACE that saves and that works through faith so it's not sola fide. Not works PLUS faith but rather Grace THROUGH faith.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Then if the Lord knows genuine faith then nothing else is necessary but that's not what Scripture says.

Not if that faith has to be "validated" by an external action. It's either faith alone or it's not. I may well be ignore of many things but I know what the words, alone and sufficient mean.

 

[nedsk]

Hello again Nedsk, while I have certainly heard many say that the works that we end up doing as Christians are the fruit of/result from God changing us and saving us, I don't ever remember hearing/reading a discussion or study or sermon about not having a choice in the matter (in regard to obeying, pleasing, honoring and/or glorifying God, that is).

This is what I was referring to earlier in the thread when I told you that you seemed to be conflating ideas that have nothing to do with each other (unless we force them to). Your thread title tells me that you want to talk about "Faith Alone", but it seems like your somewhat hidden, but actual issue or concern in this thread has to do with "free will" instead, which is a differnt topic altogether (which, I also believe, may be the source of the confusion in this thread).


I'm sorry, but I'm simply unable to follow what you are saying above, IOW, that "if work is a choice" that we make, that means that "works must be necessary for salvation" Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on that so that I can understand what you're saying? IOW, if doing good works as a believer is a choice that we make (and it is), how does it then follow that these "works are necessary for salvation"?

Thanks!

That would be true if believers were not already saved/had not already received eternal life from God in this life/prior to the Judgement that we will all stand in (Bema Seat) at the end of the age.

Unlike the Judgment of the reprobate however (Great White Throne) where I believe that all will be judged and condemned, no one will be condemned in the judgment of the saints (as it seems to be a judgment involving the receiving of rewards, or the lack thereof, for works done in the Body during this life). There will apparently be Christians there who did nothing of eternal value during their lives here, and the works that they did do will all be burned up as a result when they are tested.

Nevertheless, their position in Christ, as saved children of God, remains.

As the Scripture tells us,

1 Corinthians 3​

10 According to the grace of God bestowed on me, like a skillful architect and master builder I laid the foundation, and now another man is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it, ​

11 for no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

12 But if anyone builds upon the Foundation, whether it be with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, ​

hay, straw, ​

13 the work of each [one] will become known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work that each person has done. ​

14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward. ​

15 But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer loss [of it all, losing his reward], ~though he himself will be saved~, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.​

I'm going to stop here and wait to hear back from you about the elaboration that I asked you for and/or the question that I asked you in my middle reply above.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I will add this however, that the Reformers doctrine known as sola fide/salvation by faith alone is really a code of sorts (if you will) for something else. Like sola gratia/salvation by grace alone, it's simply a different way of looking at how we are saved, which is Solus Christus/by Christ alone (by what He did for us, IOW, both by the perfect, sinless life that He lived before His Father on our behalf, and by the death that He died in our stead on the Cross (to redeem us).

Do yourself a favor and stop wasting time posting a ton of stuff. Volume of content doesn't make you right and I don't read it. You folks do this every single time.

Look it's rather simple. Scripture shows people inheriting the kingdom of God based on their works. Yes or no? Don't write 5 paragraphs

 

[gpresdo]

How did they ever get saved without trusting and believing Jesus?

You mean...born again?

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, dear.

Not "dear," but PinSeeker. :) Or, just a 'yes' would do... :)

Believing is the very pinnacle of our faith.

Well yes, if we didn't believe, that would certainly be outward evidence, both to us and to others, that we don't have God's assurance of things hoped for or conviction by the Holy Spirit of things unseen. Sure. But good works are that same kind of evidence. It all comes out of the new spirit we now have, having been born again by the Spirit and thus of God and now desiring to do His will, no longer of our former father the Devil and doing his will.

Then when we receive Jesus based on the truth of his word, that belief, we become children of God by faith in that truth, that belief.

Again, saving faith, which is a gift of God by His Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9) is a very different thing than belief. Faith is God's assurance... that our sins are forgiven, that we have eternal life, that we are in Christ Jesus. We believe because God gives this faith to us; this is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:9, that "by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God..." We believe because of this, because of God giving us a new heart, because of His putting a new spirit within us, even His Holy Spirit.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Angelina]

I'm not arguing either I just stating what the facts are. Faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. I know you can't accept that truth because you're a disciple of Luther.

I agree with you. I always had. Faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. It requires belief and sometimes (depending on the Holy Spirit's revelation) it may require action but not works. Works are related to the O/T law rather than what is being understood today as believers in Christ. Not the Law works but action by faith type of thing. PS: who is Luther? I am a faith-walking, bible believing, sword-wielding, Spirit filled, Holy Roller, pentecostal!

 

[Angelina]

Then you don't know what the word sufficient means. It's amazing.

@nedsk No... you're amazing! your words don't make me feel any less valued as a Child of God. I know who I am in Christ and I am who I am by His grace.

 

[Angelina]

Now I hope everyone sticks to keeping to the o/p and not personally attacking each other on this thread, folks. I wouldn't want to have to come back and shut it down. Have a blessed day!

 

[nedsk]

I agree with you. I always had. Faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. It requires belief and sometimes (depending on the Holy Spirit's revelation) it may require action but not works. Works are related to the O/T law rather than what is being understood today as believers in Christ. Not the Law works but action by faith type of thing. PS: who is Luther? I am a faith-walking, bible believing, sword-wielding, Spirit filled, Holy Roller, pentecostal!

You don't even hear how confused that post is do you? Faith is just a term that refers to religious belief.

It's not works of the law. Matthew is clear that people will inherit the kingdom based on their works. He Never mentions faith or this silly notion of you're about belief.

If you don't know who luther is then you just believe what you're told to believe.

 

[nedsk]

@nedsk No... you're amazing! your words don't make me feel any less valued as a Child of God. I know who I am in Christ and I am who I am by His grace.

My words aren't intended to make you feel any less valued as a child of God but you blindly believe things you don't understand and think you're saved. That's the part I'm referring to. Yes through Gods grace salvation is available to you but you people think you possess it just because you believe you do. That's not scriptural. Matt 7:21

 

[PinSeeker]

Faith alone is not sufficient for salvation.

<chuckles> It is, and it's not ~ in two different senses. Again, we are saved, and we are being saved at the same time.

In the former, it's that we have received God's mercy and compassion, and have thus been born again of the Spirit of God... through faith, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. In this sense, faith is all that's needed, faith, even as a mustard seed, as Jesus said. And this is the Reformation concept of Sola Fide ~ faith alone.

However... <smile>

In the latter sense, we are being saved, in that God, Who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion at the day of Christ, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6. And then just a few sentences later, in Philippians 2:13, says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." So yes, works are an essential part of our ultimate salvation at the day of Christ. And back to Ephesians 2... Why were we born again of the Spirit? Who's workmanship are we, and why were we created... born again of the Spirit? Well, Paul says we were "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." And in Romans 2, Paul says "(God) will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil... but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good..." We will all be judged according to our works, and we see this graphically portrayed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 in His portrayal of the final Judgment. So yes, in this sense, good works are... needed for salvation.

But again... <smile> ...if we have the former ~ God-given faith, and saved in that way ~ then we will also ultimately have the latter ~ good works, and will be saved that way. We still stand in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), and thus enter into the New Heaven and New Earth.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[nedsk]

<chuckles> It is, and it's not ~ in two different senses. Again, we are saved, and we are being saved at the same time.

In the former, it's that we have received God's mercy and compassion, and have thus been born again of the Spirit of God... through faith, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. In this sense, faith is all that's needed, faith, even as a mustard seed, as Jesus said. And this is the Reformation concept of Sola Fide ~ faith alone.

However... <smile>

In the latter sense, we are being saved, in that God, Who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion at the day of Christ, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6. And then just a few sentences later, in Philippians 2:13, says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." So yes, works are an essential part of our ultimate salvation at the day of Christ. And back to Ephesians 2... Why were we born again of the Spirit? Who's workmanship are we, and why were we created... born again of the Spirit? Well, Paul says we were "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." And in Romans 2, Paul says "(God) will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil... but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good..." We will all be judged according to our works, and we see this graphically portrayed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 in His portrayal of the final Judgment. So yes, in this sense, good works are... needed for salvation.

But again... <smile> ...if we have the former ~ God-given faith, and saved in that way ~ then we will also ultimately have the latter ~ good works, and will be saved that way. We still stand in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), and thus enter into the New Heaven and New Earth.

Grace and peace to you.

So when we have "God given faith" then we automatically get good works? Is that your position? Works are not a choice but an inescapable result of that "God given faith"?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 2:8-10 does not mean we don't need works in the end. Just that we don't need them in the beginning. Im quoting from an article here.

"
When we were saved, as Christians (Christ followers Acts 11:26), we were placed into Christ”s Kingdom, which is simply the Kingdom of God under Christ’s control.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. NKJV

Colossians 1:12-14
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. NKJV

This is the reason why I would say something like “we were saved into the Kingdom of Christ,” because that is where all Christians were placed by God when we got saved.

Out of those who get saved, only those who trust and believe Jesus Christ, and believe the Gospel are sealed and guaranteed an inheritance.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJV

The rest of the Christians, who were saved into the Kingdom of Christ, do not have a permanent place in the family. In other words, they are in the family, but they will not remain, or abide in the family forever, according to the Word of the Lord written in John 8:34-36 below.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. NKJV

The only Christians, who are set free from being a slave to sin, are the ones who abide (remain) in Jesus. Check the verses below, and know that there is not a church left in the Bible belt that is teaching these verses, but wouldn’t they teach them if they trusted Jesus? Welcome to the last days!

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV

1 John 3:4-6
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. NKJV

The only way to abide in Jesus Christ is to obey His commands, and so this is why it is written that Jesus is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him, but no body preaches these verses."

----Alan Ballou howtostopsinning.org

Great Post Wynona!

 

[GodsGrace]

<chuckles> It is, and it's not ~ in two different senses. Again, we are saved, and we are being saved at the same time.

In the former, it's that we have received God's mercy and compassion, and have thus been born again of the Spirit of God... through faith, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. In this sense, faith is all that's needed, faith, even as a mustard seed, as Jesus said. And this is the Reformation concept of Sola Fide ~ faith alone.

However... <smile>

In the latter sense, we are being saved, in that God, Who began a good work in us, will bring it to completion at the day of Christ, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6. And then just a few sentences later, in Philippians 2:13, says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." So yes, works are an essential part of our ultimate salvation at the day of Christ. And back to Ephesians 2... Why were we born again of the Spirit? Who's workmanship are we, and why were we created... born again of the Spirit? Well, Paul says we were "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." And in Romans 2, Paul says "(God) will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil... but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good..." We will all be judged according to our works, and we see this graphically portrayed by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 in His portrayal of the final Judgment. So yes, in this sense, good works are... needed for salvation.

But again... <smile> ...if we have the former ~ God-given faith, and saved in that way ~ then we will also ultimately have the latter ~ good works, and will be saved that way. We still stand in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), and thus enter into the New Heaven and New Earth.

Grace and peace to you.

PinSeeker, I agree with you 100%.
(sooner or later, two must agree on something).

I just would like to make the following comment:

It is as you say above.
Except for the very last PP where you state:
THEN WE WILL ULTIMATELY HAVE THE LATTER....

I've heard some say, here on these forums, that a person can sin and still be saved because "In Christ" we cannot sin.
Whatever that means - I don't know.

I've heard (read) some say that works are not important...
when this is all Jesus taught.

(so ultimately we will not have the latter).

I would address a thread like this to those....
but those don't care because they feel they are saved NO MATTER WHAT.

(I don't believe any of those are on this thread).

 

[PinSeeker]

So when we have "God given faith" then we automatically get good works? Is that your position?

Works are not a choice but an inescapable result of that "God given faith"?

<chuckles> We make... good (God-pleasing) choices... with regard to works ~ and do them ~ because we have been born again of the Spirit and thus have this new heart and this salvific faith, which, again, is God's assurance of our salvation and conviction by the Holy Spirit. It might click with you more readily if instead of 'inescapable' you use the word 'inevitable,' which... is not the same thing. Better yet, rather than 'inescapable' you would probably understand more readily if you used 'natural' or even 'freely willing.' So, yes, our good works are the natural... the freely willing... result of our having been born again of the spirit and saved through God-given, salvific faith. Because of the new spirit in us, we freely do these things; it is a labor of love. As John says, "we love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Like you said, it's not hard to understand. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, nedsk.

 

[GodsGrace]

So when we have "God given faith" then we automatically get good works? Is that your position? Works are not a choice but an inescapable result of that "God given faith"?

Of course you have a good point here.
IF good works were automatic,,,,would there even be any sin??

They are indeed a choice,
which is why Paul warned against sinning in all his letters.

Here is one:

Galatians 6:9
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Let us not lose heart...
which means that we can.


1 Corinthians 6:
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul states that even the brethren wrong and defraud...then goes on to describe who is not going to inherit the Kingdom...

Why warn, if good works automatically follow?

He goes on to tell the listeners that they have been washed...they are believers...
but the warning remains.