Matthew 24:30 may have a significant mistranslation

[kdx]

No, it is not. Which is why you are alone in that belief.

Apparently not. May I link you to my recent thread?

(removed)

Its funny, since I just registered here and opened the thread only because of that very topic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course Christ was called the "First-fruits". But that is a plural title, and also applied to the 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14:4 whose bodies were redeemed out of the earth and stood together with the risen Lamb on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.

It's shown as plural in English translations, but I don't think that is the right translation of the Greek word because it's only referring to Christ Himself as being the firstfruit(s) of them that slept. Again, Paul called Jesus Himself the firstfruits or firstfruit (of them that slept). The Bible was not written in English, of course. The Greek word translated as "firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 20 and 23 can also be translated as firstfruit, and it is translated that way in some translations.

Translations using “firstfruit / first-fruit” (singular)​

• Berean Literal Bible: “But now Christ has been raised out from the dead, the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.” Bible Hub+1
• Literal Emphasis Translation: “But now, Christ has been raised up from out of the dead, the first-fruit of those having fallen asleep.” Bible Hub
• The Passion Translation (TPT): “But the truth is, Christ is risen from the dead, as the firstfruit of a great resurrection harvest of those who have died.” YouVersion | The Bible App | Bible.com+1
• Literal New Testament (PDF version): “…He is the firstfruit of the ones who have died.” literalnewtestament.com
• Godbey New Testament: “But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruit of them that slept.” Bible Hub
• Haweis New Testament: “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruit of those who have fallen asleep.” Bible Hub
• Worrell New Testament: “But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the First fruit of those who have fallen asleep.”

He is called "the first crop" in this translation...

1 Cor 15:20 (Common English Bible) But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead. He’s the first crop of the harvest of those who have died.

So, don't get thrown off by the plural firstfruits when it's very clear that Paul only refers to Christ's resurrection itself in 1 Corinthians 15:20.

In other words, the 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised from their graves on that same day as "Christ the First-fruits" also shared the same "First-fruits" title with Him. Together, Christ and the 144,000 Matt. 27 saints all participated in that "first resurrection" event in AD 33. "First-fruits" is an Israelite agricultural term and it does not refer to a single stalk of grain harvested.


No, I'm not making things up. Paul spoke about the church having those "First-fruits" among them in Romans 8:23. And aren't you forgetting John's description of the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20:5? That "remnant (loipoi) of the dead" which came to life again at the end of the millennium was called the "first resurrection" event. In other words, it wasn't Christ alone who was raised to life again that same day in AD 33. There was a certain "remnant" group which also came to life again as participants in that "first resurrection" event. It was the many Matt. 27:52-53 saints. And yes, the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints were raised to incorruptibility and immortality. They never died again afterward a second time - not even possible - since it is appointed unto man ONCE to die - not twice (Heb. 9:27).


The context of 1 Cor. 15:20-24 is the subject of the bodily resurrection for those who are "in Christ", and the chronological order of when those bodily resurrection events would take place. Then Paul lists three times when those events would occur in 1 Cor. 15:23-24. I am twisting nothing at all.

You absolutely are twisting that passage. No question about it. The only resurrections Paul mentions in that passage are Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it. You are trying to add more resurrections that Paul did not mention. A clear, blatant effort on your part to twist his words to fit your doctrine.

 

[David in NJ]

Hello I’m curious: what about Jesus statements in John’s Gospel that he will raise up all who belong to him “on the last day”? How do you deal with that?

Welcome and great question to ask

 

[covenantee]

Where did JESUS say that???

Please post it

Oh, so Genesis 3:15 is not included in Jesus' Gospel?

Where did JESUS say that???

 

[David in NJ]

Oh, so Genesis 3:15 was not included in Jesus' Gospel?

Where did JESUS say that???

#1 - That is not what i asked

#2 - Genesis 3:15 is for the entire duration from Genesis to Revelation

#3 - Why do you not believe JESUS = "on the LAST day"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A prophecy is not always a prediction of future events. Sometimes it speaks about past events as well. As in Hosea 11:1. "When Israel was a child, I called my son out of Egypt..." When Israel as a nation was called out of Egypt in the Exodus, that young nation was considered a "child" at that point. In Hosea 11:1, God was recounting how He had cared for Israel as a nation from the beginning.

You constantly miss the point. Any prophecy you can find that tells of something happening in the future from the time it was written only prophesies about one future fulfillment. Never more than one. That's the point. Address the point for once.

No, I'm not wrong about Christ's bodily return in AD 70,

You absolutely are. The idea of Him returning bodily in AD 70 is utter nonsense and is not something worth taking any more time to even talk about. I'd rather talk about serious things instead of made up nonsense.

because I quote Jesus, the Apostles, and the prophets directly about this. Call it ridiculous if you will - it won't change Christ's and the Apostles and prophets' words about the timing of His second coming in that first-century generation.

Again, the idea of Him coming bodily in 70 AD is ridiculous. You can't convince me otherwise no matter what you do.

And Zechariah 12 was NOT describing mourning over Christ's death. The mourning of those tribes and families in Israel was described as being just as intense as if they were mourning one of their own first-born sons.

Yes, it is describing that. No question about it. It specifically says "they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.". That is talking about mourning for Him because of Him being pierced and being put to death. Do you not think anyone mourned Christ's death in that sense? Read this...

Luke 23:26 Now as they led Him away, they laid hold of a certain man, Simon a Cyrenian, who was coming from the country, and on him they laid the cross that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. 28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

Why would anyone mourn for Him at His second coming? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Nothing at all about mourning for Christ's death. They would be looking at the bodily-returning Christ and mourning, "Lord, lord, did we not prophecy in thy name..." etc., with weeping and gnashing of teeth to see themselves shut out of entering the kingdom with Christ and the patriarchs.

You're talking about people mourning for themselves. Zechariah 12:10 is talking about people mourning for Jesus. You need to learn to look at the context of scripture instead of constantly trying to make it say what you want it to say.

The context of Zechariah 12-14 was the prophecy about "the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem". I repeat - there was not a siege of Jerusalem taking place during Christ's crucifixion, so your crucifixion setting for this Zech. 12-14 prophecy is wrong.

The Rev. 1:7 reference to "every eye" was specifically of "those who pierced Him" that would view the returning Christ. This duplicates Zechariah 12:10. They both make reference to the very same "tribes of the earth" - namely, of the land of Israel - not the globe in its entirety. It is the same with Matthew 24:30 and those "tribes of the earth" mourning to see Christ's return, immediately after the "great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people" (God's wrath against the first-century Israelites).

Again, Zechariah 12:10 very clearly talks about people mourning for Jesus, not themselves. You are ignoring the context of Zechariah 12:10, which is different than the context of Revelation 1:7 were people are mourning for themselves and wailing in fear because of His wrath.

 

[David in NJ]

Yea right! God was ignorant of what He created???

"planets" are satan's deception = NASA

STARS my Brother = STARS

 

[covenantee]

#1 - That is not what i asked

#2 - Genesis 3:15 is for the entire duration from Genesis to Revelation

#3 - Why do you not believe JESUS = "on the LAST day"

Why do you not know what you're talking about?

I asked in my original post, "Is Matthew 24:15-16 past, present, or future?"

You never did answer.

 

[David in NJ]

Why do you not know what you're talking about?

I asked in the original post, "Is Matthew 24:15-16 past, present, or future?"

You never did answer.

Matt 24:14 is Past, Present and Future

Matt 24:15 is Past and Future = repeating prophecy = JESUS says: "all things must be fulfilled"

 

[3 Resurrections]

Hello I’m curious: what about Jesus statements in John’s Gospel that he will raise up all who belong to him “on the last day”? How do you deal with that?

Question: The "last day" of what period? Remember, James 5:1-8 spoke against the rich men who had then "heaped treasure up in the last days" at that time James was writing. That heaped-up treasure which the rich men had gathered together in those "last days" of the first century was only going to make them a target for the Zealots' thievery in the AD 66-70 period. James 5:1-8 spoke of Christ's soon coming - even that He was "standing at the door" as a judge about to appear at that time.

This term "the last day" was a repetition of the prediction given by the "song of Moses" long ago in Deuteronomy 32:29 about Israel's "latter end" as a people. Moses made the people memorize this "song" about all the plagues which would come upon themselves in their "latter end" when God would "judge His people". Daniel had also predicted that God would "shatter the power of the holy people" (Dan. 12:7) by the time all those Daniel prophecies would be fulfilled. And you know that those Daniel prophecies included a bodily resurrection in Daniel 12:2 at that "time of the end".

God had predicted in Isaiah 65 that He would bring forth an "elect" portion out of Israel, but He would slay the rest and "call His servants by another name". The events in Judea in the AD 66-70 period fulfilled this in the people of Israel's "latter end".

1 John 3:18 even spoke about his own days as being in "the LAST HOUR" at that time. And 1 Peter 4:7 wrote that "the end of all things is at hand" in his own days. Something was clearly coming to an end in that first-century time frame.

The "last day" of that first-century "time of the end" resulted in a resurrection of all who belonged to Christ at Christ's second coming back then.

 

[David in NJ]

It's shown as plural in English translations, but I don't think that is the right translation of the Greek word because it's only referring to Christ Himself as being the firstfruit(s) of them that slept. Again, Paul called Jesus Himself the firstfruits or firstfruit (of them that slept). The Bible was not written in English, of course. The Greek word translated as "firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 20 and 23 can also be translated as firstfruit, and it is translated that way in some translations.

Translations using “firstfruit / first-fruit” (singular)​

• Berean Literal Bible: “But now Christ has been raised out from the dead, the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.” Bible Hub+1
• Literal Emphasis Translation: “But now, Christ has been raised up from out of the dead, the first-fruit of those having fallen asleep.” Bible Hub
• The Passion Translation (TPT): “But the truth is, Christ is risen from the dead, as the firstfruit of a great resurrection harvest of those who have died.” YouVersion | The Bible App | Bible.com+1
• Literal New Testament (PDF version): “…He is the firstfruit of the ones who have died.” literalnewtestament.com
• Godbey New Testament: “But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruit of them that slept.” Bible Hub
• Haweis New Testament: “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first-fruit of those who have fallen asleep.” Bible Hub
• Worrell New Testament: “But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the First fruit of those who have fallen asleep.”

He is called "the first crop" in this translation...

1 Cor 15:20 (Common English Bible) But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead. He’s the first crop of the harvest of those who have died.

So, don't get thrown off by the plural firstfruits when it's very clear that Paul only refers to Christ's resurrection itself in 1 Corinthians 15:20.


You absolutely are twisting that passage. No question about it. The only resurrections Paul mentions in that passage are Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it. You are trying to add more resurrections that Paul did not mention. A clear, blatant effort on your part to twist his words to fit your doctrine.

You MISSED OUT again = CHRIST is the firstfruits of those who SLEEP = One CROP that are in CHRIST who is the RESURRECTION

 

[David in NJ]

Question: The "last day" of what period? Remember, James 5:1-8 spoke against the rich men who had then "heaped treasure up in the last days" at that time James was writing. That heaped-up treasure which the rich men had gathered together in those "last days" of the first century was only going to make them a target for the Zealots' thievery in the AD 66-70 period. James 5:1-8 spoke of Christ's soon coming - even that He was "standing at the door" as a judge about to appear at that time.

This term "the last day" was a repetition of the prediction given by the "song of Moses" long ago in Deuteronomy 32:29 about Israel's "latter end" as a people. Moses made the people memorize this "song" about all the plagues which would come upon themselves in their "latter end" when God would "judge His people". Daniel had also predicted that God would "shatter the power of the holy people" (Dan. 12:7) by the time all those Daniel prophecies would be fulfilled. And you know that those Daniel prophecies included a bodily resurrection in Daniel 12:2 at that "time of the end".

God had predicted in Isaiah 65 that He would bring forth an "elect" portion out of Israel, but He would slay the rest and "call His servants by another name". The events in Judea in the AD 66-70 period fulfilled this in the people of Israel's "latter end".

1 John 3:18 even spoke about his own days as being in "the LAST HOUR" at that time. And 1 Peter 4:7 wrote that "the end of all things is at hand" in his own days. Something was clearly coming to an end in that first-century time frame.

The "last day" of that first-century "time of the end" resulted in a resurrection of all who belonged to Christ at Christ's second coming back then.

You are conflating scripture into a false doctrine.

The "Last Day" is the Second Coming of Christ and the FIRST Resurrection = Genesis, OT Prophets, Gospel, Revelation

The Apostles did not know that the Gospel would continue for another 2,000+ Years

 

[covenantee]

Matt 24:14 is Past, Present and Future

Matt 24:15 is Past and Future = repeating prophecy = JESUS says: "all things must be fulfilled"

They were fulfilled, once, by the Judaean Christians' flight prior to 70 AD.

Nothing present, future, or repeating.

"Why do you not believe JESUS".

 

[David in NJ]

They were fulfilled, once, by the Judaean Christians' flight prior to 70 AD.

Nothing present, future, or repeating.

"Why do you not believe JESUS".

lol

JESUS quoted Daniel

Daniel prophecies of the FIRST Resurrection which ONLY occurs at the Second Coming.

Daniel and JESUS said so!!! = Why don't you believe Daniel and JESUS???

 

[covenantee]

lol

JESUS quote dDaniel

Daniel prophecies of FIRST Resurrection which ONLY occurs at the Second Coming.

Daniel and JESUS said so!!! = Why don't you believe Daniel and JESUS???

So you believe that the Judaean Christians fled the "FIRST Resurrection which ONLY occurs at the Second Coming."

Can you elaborate?

 

[David in NJ]

So you believe that the Judaean Christians fled the "FIRST Resurrection which ONLY occurs at the Second Coming."

Can you elaborate?

lolx100

you gave me the BEST laugh of the day ........so far

they fled the Romans and there was no first resurrection on that day.............because it was not "the LAST DAY"

 

[covenantee]

lolx100

you gave me the BEST laugh of the day ........so far

You're welcome.

But you didn't elaborate.

Why not?

 

[David in NJ]

You're welcome.

But you didn't elaborate.

Why not?

go back to it

 

[covenantee]

go back to it

So you're afraid to elaborate.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So, don't get thrown off by the plural firstfruits when it's very clear that Paul only refers to Christ's resurrection itself in 1 Corinthians 15:20.

You are forgetting the symbolism of the Mosaic ritual of the "First-fruits" being waved in the temple back in Leviticus 23:10-12. The barley harvest would have a "First-fruits" sheaf handful of grain offered in the temple ALONG WITH a single he-lamb without blemish. This was meant to foreshadow the resurrection of the 144,000 Matt. 27:52-53 First-fruits saints on the same day as Christ the Lamb was also raised from the dead. Together, these comprised the "First-fruits" offering. It was not a single stalk of grain that was harvested. Neither was it the single he-lamb. It was a sample portion of the entire harvest, ALONG WITH the single he-lamb.