How Important is doctrine? Part 1

[MonoBiblical]

@Episkopos Is the law valid doctrine?

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos Is the law valid doctrine?

How vague. An unlearned person sees a word in the bible and adds in their own understanding...through an indoctrination that negates any nuance or level of God's work.

So what do you mean by law?

The law of Moses? The law of God? The law of sin and death? The law of faith? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

 

[MonoBiblical]

How vague. An unlearned person sees a word in the bible and adds in their own understanding...through an indoctrination that negates any nuance or level of God's work.

So what do you mean by law?

The law of Moses? The law of God? The law of sin and death? The law of faith? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Commandments. Commandments are doctrine even if thou doesn't like that they are.

 

[Episkopos]

Commandments. Commandments are doctrine even if thou doesn't like that they are.

Do you mean the law of God? The 10 commandments? This is not about personal preference...I think you have been in the modern church too long. ;)

The 10 commandments continue into the New Covenant as showing the distinction between righteousness and holiness. There are 4 holiness commandments (1st tablet) and 6 righteousness commandments (second tablet).

When the rich young man asked Jesus which commandments he needed to obey in order to INHERIT eternal life...Jesus only listed 5 of the righteousness commandments (the 10th commandment to not covet is fully outside the capability of the carnal man)

You may not be able to understand such knowledge as most believers today possess neither wisdom, nor knowledge, nor understanding.

But there it is if people want to consider God's ways.

 

[shepherdsword]

I think we understand doctrine in direct proportion to our obedience. It's almost mathematical. It's what I get from this:

Jn 7:16-17
My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Therefore a perfect understanding can only come from perfect obedience. Perhaps that's why we see through a glass darkly:

1 Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


*NOTE* haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.

 

[marks]

I think we understand doctrine in direct proportion to our obedience. It's almost mathematical. It's what I get from this:

Jn 7:16-17
My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Therefore a perfect understanding can only come from perfect obedience. Perhaps that's why we see through a glass darkly:

1 Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


*NOTE* haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.

Amen!

This is further attested to here:

Hebrews 5:12-14 KJV
12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Much love!

 

[Marvelloustime]

For the Spirit of prophecy IS the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST
but according to some folks its the testimony of picking up your own cross without having to FIRST BELEIVE on HE who was
crucified on the Cross . EPI aint fooling me sister . These folks are and have no idea the danger they are in sister .
I can only pray they repent and fast .

@amigo de christo

 

[bdavidc]

This is all a strawman...you are doing what you are saying I'm doing. I am speaking to you from the whole counsel of God and you are arguing from Luther's false understanding of Paul.

Exactly what you are doing...the opposite game. Either you are that blind or you are disingenuous and an obvious false teacher whose strategy is to play semantics by using my real statements about the ways of God and trying to make is seem like I'm the one who is indoctrinated into a Lutheran misreading of Paul.

Turn your comments back onto yourself where they belong.

You are not answering the verses. You are attacking the person. That is the clearest sign that your position has no biblical foundation. Scripture commands believers to judge teaching by the Word, not by accusations or labels. “To the law and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20. You have not shown from Scripture where anything I said contradicts the text. You simply call it “Lutheran,” which is irrelevant and unbiblical, because the standard is the Word of God, not a man’s name.

You say I am playing semantics, but the issue is not semantics. It is whether your claims match Scripture. The Spirit inspired all Scripture ~2 Timothy 3:16. The apostles spoke by the Spirit ~2 Peter 1:21. Jesus affirmed the authority of every word that comes from God ~Matthew 4:4. If you set Jesus against Paul, or feelings against doctrine, you are not following the Spirit. You are following your own ideas. Scripture never divides Jesus from the rest of the Word. Jesus said, “The Scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. If Scripture cannot be broken, then your attempt to pit one part of the Bible against another is already condemned by Jesus Himself.

Calling me blind or disingenuous does not overturn the verses I quoted. It does not explain why your teaching contradicts the clear text. It does not prove your claims. Scripture exposes that tactic for what it is. “A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion” ~Proverbs 18:2. You keep offering opinions. I keep pointing to Scripture. That is the difference.

If you want to refute what I said, then show from Scripture, in context, where the Bible teaches your claims. Until you do, your accusations are empty. “Let God be true and every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. I stand on the Word. You are standing on your assumptions. And the Word of God will judge between them.

 

[Episkopos]

You are not answering the verses. You are attacking the person. That is the clearest sign that your position has no biblical foundation. Scripture commands believers to judge teaching by the Word, not by accusations or labels. “To the law and to the testimony. If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20. You have not shown from Scripture where anything I said contradicts the text. You simply call it “Lutheran,” which is irrelevant and unbiblical, because the standard is the Word of God, not a man’s name.

You say I am playing semantics, but the issue is not semantics. It is whether your claims match Scripture. The Spirit inspired all Scripture ~2 Timothy 3:16. The apostles spoke by the Spirit ~2 Peter 1:21. Jesus affirmed the authority of every word that comes from God ~Matthew 4:4. If you set Jesus against Paul, or feelings against doctrine, you are not following the Spirit. You are following your own ideas. Scripture never divides Jesus from the rest of the Word. Jesus said, “The Scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. If Scripture cannot be broken, then your attempt to pit one part of the Bible against another is already condemned by Jesus Himself.

Calling me blind or disingenuous does not overturn the verses I quoted. It does not explain why your teaching contradicts the clear text. It does not prove your claims. Scripture exposes that tactic for what it is. “A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion” ~Proverbs 18:2. You keep offering opinions. I keep pointing to Scripture. That is the difference.

If you want to refute what I said, then show from Scripture, in context, where the Bible teaches your claims. Until you do, your accusations are empty. “Let God be true and every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. I stand on the Word. You are standing on your assumptions. And the Word of God will judge between them.

You are a troll...attacking me personally because you have zero argument concerning the subject of this thread. You are a false teacher who is dishonest and disingenuous.

You raise no points at all...being indoctrinated into a man-made tradition that denies the scriptures. You have a very common delusion having no experience of God in truth. All you have is the traditions of men. That anti-Semite Luther particularly

 

[Episkopos]

A number of dishonest trolls invade my threads with foolish arguments and religious grandstanding glorying in their ignorance...quoting verses that have no bearing on the discussion...in an ego charged display, not knowing the scriptures or pretending to understand what is clearly beyond their understanding.

I invite actual discussion based on the video presentation and what is a sound doctrine...following the wisdom of the bible.

I invite people who are both thoughtful and honest. ...who act as real believers.

 

[bdavidc]

You are a troll...attacking me personally because you have zero argument concerning the subject of this thread. You are a false teacher who is dishonest and disingenuous.

You raise no points at all...being indoctrinated into a man-made tradition that denies the scriptures. You have a very common delusion having no experience of God in truth. All you have is the traditions of men. That anti-Semite Luther particularly

You are proving my point with every sentence. You keep avoiding the Scriptures I quoted and attacking me instead. “Test all things; hold fast what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. If you refuse to test your claims by the Word, then your accusations have no weight. Personal insults do not replace biblical truth.

Calling me a troll or dishonest does nothing to address the passages I quoted. Scripture says, “Let God be true and every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. That means your accusations mean nothing unless you can show from the Bible where I have spoken falsely. You have not done that. You keep offering opinions instead of Scripture, and God already described that mindset. “A fool has no delight in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion” ~Proverbs 18:2.

You also keep bringing up Luther, which is irrelevant. Luther is not my authority. Scripture is. Jesus said, “The Scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. When you reject parts of Scripture or try to pit Jesus against the rest of the Bible, you are contradicting the very words of Christ. The apostles spoke by the Spirit ~2 Peter 1:21. All Scripture is God breathed ~2 Timothy 3:16. There is no division inside the Word of God.

If you believe anything I’ve said is wrong, then show it from Scripture in context. Until you do, your accusations are empty noise. “To the law and to the testimony; if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20. Scripture, not feelings, not labels, not personal attacks, is the authority God uses to expose error.

 

[amigo de christo]

What i say to us all is that doctrine is very very important
For many worship a god that feeds their emotions
and have no idea their god is actually deceiving them and trodding under foot the very Words of GOD
and of CHRIST , that they think they follow .
Doctrine does matter .
what we love does matter .
EITHER we love the truth and thus THE GOD who is TRUTH and INSPIRED the words of truth
OR WE decieving ourselves . This might be perhaps the most hated message
but may the peoples hear and receive it . Its time for a wake up call .

 

[Episkopos]

You are proving my point with every sentence. You keep avoiding the Scriptures I quoted and attacking me instead. “Test all things; hold fast what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. If you refuse to test your claims by the Word, then your accusations have no weight. Personal insults do not replace biblical truth.

Calling me a troll or dishonest does nothing to address the passages I quoted. Scripture says, “Let God be true and every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. That means your accusations mean nothing unless you can show from the Bible where I have spoken falsely. You have not done that. You keep offering opinions instead of Scripture, and God already described that mindset. “A fool has no delight in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion” ~Proverbs 18:2.

You also keep bringing up Luther, which is irrelevant. Luther is not my authority. Scripture is. Jesus said, “The Scripture cannot be broken” ~John 10:35. When you reject parts of Scripture or try to pit Jesus against the rest of the Bible, you are contradicting the very words of Christ. The apostles spoke by the Spirit ~2 Peter 1:21. All Scripture is God breathed ~2 Timothy 3:16. There is no division inside the Word of God.

If you believe anything I’ve said is wrong, then show it from Scripture in context. Until you do, your accusations are empty noise. “To the law and to the testimony; if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20. Scripture, not feelings, not labels, not personal attacks, is the authority God uses to expose error.

Pathetic. All cloud and no rain. Do you have any points to make beside ad hominem attacks? A ploy of those who are all indoctrination but having no knowledge, wisdom or understanding.

 

[amigo de christo]

What i say to us all is that doctrine is very very important
For many worship a god that feeds their emotions
and have no idea their god is actually deceiving them and trodding under foot the very Words of GOD
and of CHRIST , that they think they follow .
Doctrine does matter .
what we love does matter .
EITHER we love the truth and thus THE GOD who is TRUTH and INSPIRED the words of truth
OR WE decieving ourselves . This might be perhaps the most hated message
but may the peoples hear and receive it . Its time for a wake up call . get every one back into the bible .

 

[Lizbeth]

This is all a strawman...you are doing what you are saying I'm doing. I am speaking to you from the whole counsel of God and you are arguing from Luther's false understanding of Paul.

Exactly what you are doing...the opposite game. Either you are that blind or you are disingenuous and an obvious false teacher whose strategy is to play semantics by using my real statements about the ways of God and trying to make is seem like I'm the one who is indoctrinated into a Lutheran misreading of Paul.

Turn your comments back onto yourself where they belong.

I don't know what you are spinning or why, but it isn't the GOSPEL. It says plainly in black and white in Rom 4:6 that righteousness is imputed to us without works. No one has to prove themselves righteous before righteousness being imputed to them. It is entirely based on faith....a free undeserved gift of grace.

You know I never even looked into imputed righteousness or gave it a thought before running into you here. When I went to check the subject in scriptures to see if you were right, they showed you to be wrong about that. I don't think they are hard to understand either, so what gives? Free gift is a free gift.....not earned.

Scriptures say we WERE justified and also glorified.......even though we are still on the journey to get there. It's both a yes but not yet....the promises of God are yes and amen even before they are manifested. This part is a little harder to understand, but not really if you have the Spirit. And He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete/perfect it, as long as we keep following Him and staying the course. We are to BELIEVE His gracious and seemingly impossible promises like Abraham did and keep pursuing them...........it is not pride and lacking humility to believe God, it is FAITH.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know what you are spinning or why, but it isn't the GOSPEL. It says plainly in black and white in Rom 4:6 that righteousness is imputed to us without works. No one has to prove themselves righteous before righteousness being imputed to them. It is entirely based on faith....a free undeserved gift of grace.

It's one thing to have a bible and read it...and quite another to try understanding it. You are not understanding the righteousness attributed to Abraham and the righteousness attributed to God. God isn't Abraham...and Abraham isn't God. The righteousness level is not the same...not even close. You may have to ponder that.

You know I never even looked into imputed righteousness or gave it a thought before running into you here.

You come here as an indoctrinated person...so much so, you don't realize it. But I challenge the status quo of those who are such...waking them up before it's too late to repent from false beliefs.

When I went to check the subject in scriptures to see if you were right, they showed you to be wrong about that. I don't think they are hard to understand either, so what gives? Free gift is a free gift.....not earned.

A free sample is like the first talent a believer receives. Most will NEVER go beyond the first free sample...and will be rejected. But few are wise enough to fear and tremble before God.

You are trying to lower the standard of God so you will fit in it...Like a child who pretends that the world is something to play with.

Scriptures say we WERE justified and also glorified

No it does not. The bible says you are poor naked wretched and blind. Start there...repent...turn to God and perhaps you will also be accepted into the Beloved....FOR REAL.

.......even though we are still on the journey to get there. It's both a yes but not yet....the promises of God are yes and amen even before they are manifested. This part is a little harder to understand, but not really if you have the Spirit. And He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete/perfect it, as long as we keep following Him and staying the course. We are to BELIEVE His gracious and seemingly impossible promises like Abraham did and keep pursuing them...........it is not pride and lacking humility to believe God, it is FAITH.

You have named and claimed what you have read. God is not involved yet. Your relationship up to now is with a religious proposition based on what Paul wrote to believers he actually knew. Self-justification is where you read the bible and claim to be among the elect without any actual elevation into the kingdom realm. Those who are elect don't do as you do. They don't defend an exalted view of themselves based on a bible reading.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

In this part 1 of a series on the importance of doctrine we begin with what the bible has to say on the subject. We should ask ourselves...what is the doctrine I have believed doing for my obedience to God's commandments? What have I become based on what I believe? Am I still open to correction from the scriptures...or am I satisfied with my own grasp of what the bible teaches?

Hello Episkopos, and how are you all? Great, I just had to hear your post again. My wife may not have listened to it, love you, Brother.

Love, Walter

 

[Episkopos]

Hello Episkopos, and how are you all? Great, I just had to hear your post again. My wife may not have listened to it, love you, Brother.

Love, Walter

Greetings brother :)

 

[Lizbeth]

It's one thing to have a bible and read it...and quite another to try understanding it. You are not understanding the righteousness attributed to Abraham and the righteousness attributed to God. God isn't Abraham...and Abraham isn't God. The righteousness level is not the same...not even close. You may have to ponder that.


You come here as an indoctrinated person...so much so, you don't realize it. But I challenge the status quo of those who are such...waking them up before it's too late to repent from false beliefs.


A free sample is like the first talent a believer receives. Most will NEVER go beyond the first free sample...and will be rejected. But few are wise enough to fear and tremble before God.

You are trying to lower the standard of God so you will fit in it...Like a child who pretends that the world is something to play with.


No it does not. The bible says you are poor naked wretched and blind. Start there...repent...turn to God and perhaps you will also be accepted into the Beloved....FOR REAL.

You have named and claimed what you have read. God is not involved yet. Your relationship up to now is with a religious proposition based on what Paul wrote to believers he actually knew. Self-justification is where you read the bible and claim to be among the elect without any actual elevation into the kingdom realm. Those who are elect don't do as you do. They don't defend an exalted view of themselves based on a bible reading.

Rom 4:3-8

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Again, this is the very GOSPEL.....the good news. This is the indescribable free gift that the atonement and faith in it, has brought us.

Yes of course I agree that we are to "invest" (sow) what we have been given as we follow/obey Christ, and gain more...AKA grow in righteousness and in the Spirit and in understanding.

You are free to just keep on making assumptions about me and others here as you will.

 

[Episkopos]

Rom 4:3-8

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was righteous, Abel was righteous. Phinehas was righteous. In the New Testament...Cornelius was righteous Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous etc etc etc

What you are not getting is that Paul was using shorthand for people whom he knew and you are taking his statements out of context.

You deny the righteous because Paul said he was not after a personal righteousness. You think that a personal righteousness doesn't exist because of the zeal of Paul to ONLY go after the kingdom walk in heavenly power. But you think there is an easy glory and an easy righteousness based on an easy belief system. Paul would condemn that...and he will.

You don't understand the context of Paul letters ...addressing issues you don't know about... so you fully miss the meaning and the gospel itself.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Is God ungodly??? Does God impute His own righteousness to the ungodly? Is the Publican in the parable as righteous as God...or is it God's mercy that because the Publican was so humble and contrite .... God accepted him as righteous. Was the Publican a saint? NO! He was merely righteous in God's eyes. The righteous are scarcely saved after all.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

sd righteous

You are free to just keep on making assumptions about me and others here as you will.

The gospel is about grace power from heaven to walk as Jesus walked without sin...in His victory. To walk in resurrection life. Otherwise it is a FALSE gospel...denying the cross and the power of God.

The fact that people no longer have faith in God and His power doesn't change the gospel.