No future hope for Israel in the Bible
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Chrysostomos
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Chrysostomos
Well-Known Member
You’re absolutely right, and you’ve delivered a checkmate on this issue. Your argument is airtight: biblical Israel, defined by the Old Covenant at Mount Sinai, ceased to exist when the New Covenant replaced it.
The nation of Israel in the Old Testaments was tied to that covenant, and with its end, so ended any prophetic relevance for that Israel. Dispensationalists can cling to their doctrines, but they can’t refute this—no covenant, no Israel, no prophecies. Game over. Well done!
The nation of Israel in the Old Testaments was tied to that covenant, and with its end, so ended any prophetic relevance for that Israel. Dispensationalists can cling to their doctrines, but they can’t refute this—no covenant, no Israel, no prophecies. Game over. Well done!
One could even say that Israel of Old was chosen by God to bring forth the Messiah, Savior, and once Christ came the nation of Old became obsolete. Though there are some Messianic Jews living in Jerusalem, they no longer belong to Israel of Old, but in Christ they are of the Israel of God, Christians, belonging to the body of Christ.
Because Israel of Old has been cast away from God with the advent of Christ come to earth a man, we also understand that when Christ speaks of "this generation" that shall not pass away until all things are fulfilled does not apply strictly to Jews living in AD 70 as Preterits would have us believe.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus came for the house of Israel, fulfilled the law and the prophets, and "It is finished."
All that remains is the bloodline which is now disbursed among the gentiles. And their history and heritage, is much appreciated.
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Because of the Jews, the name of God is blasphemed.
Why? They rejected both the Father and the Son.
They do not honor the Son, they blaspheme His name.
They said Christ has a demon.
Why? They rejected both the Father and the Son.
They do not honor the Son, they blaspheme His name.
They said Christ has a demon.
The Jews Guilty as the Gentiles
17 [d]Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest[e] on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.Circumcision of No Avail
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your [f]written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose [g]praise is not from men but from God.
TribulationSigns
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soberxp
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What you ask is not about Revelation.
Ezekiel was the guardian of Israel, the watchman. His words concerned Israel.
And the Revelation regarding all humanity.
If you insist on making a comparison, then you will only end up in the wrong direction.
Certainly not the Zionist-"Israel" of today. When God in the Bible speaks of Israel, it is to be understood in His terms. So it has to be a covenant people. So if it is, in this passage (or any else), speaking about the Israel of the Old Testament, then this prophecy has already been fulfilled. Why? Because this Israel doesn't exist anymore. And if this passage is to be fulfilled in the future, it has to be fulfilled in the church, since that is the only "Israel", as defined by God, that still exists today, and will exist until the end of time.
You made a grievous mistake before, when you wrote:
You call the modern state of Israel a "re-establishment". But something can only be re-established if it is established upon the same terms. But this is not so. Old Testament Israel was established upon the Old Covenant. So if you want to "re-establish" that Israel, you would have to re-establish the Old Covenant itself, with all it's worship. But this is an impossible position to hold as a Christian, since this Covenant was replaced by the New. There is a new people of God, and if anyone (abrahamic blood or gentile) wants to have a part in God, he has to become part of this Covenant.
I think people are easily being fooled just by the fact that the modern state of Israel goes by the name of "Israel". If it's called Israel, then it has to be Israel, right? This is nonsense. If I open a company by the name of "Israel" and hire twenty jews to work there, that doesn't magically make it Old Testament Israel, too. That's crazy. But this is basically what is being suggested with the modern state of Zionist Israel.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
That's called a non-sequitur argument. Israel existed due to the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant no longer exists. Therefore, Israel no longer exists.
Why this doesn't follow is because Israel's existence does *not* depend on the continuing existence of the Old Covenant. Paul argued that the Promise is not contingent upon the Law, or upon its conditional nature.
Rome 4.13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
I am not sure how this is relevant to the debate. Maybe you can elaborate. Pauls promise is the promise of inheritance. He says this promise has been given to Abraham and his offspring (which is Christ) long before the law did come; proving by it, that the inheritance has never been by adherence to the law. This inheritance is given to all those who believe in Christ, Paul explicitly says that in the end of that section of the passage:
Verse 16: Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
Verse 29: And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
a.com/essays/doom.html
The following is the summation of:
Chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel describe a final cataclysmic battle between Gog and his armies and the Lord that results in the utter devastation of all who oppose the Lord and his people Israel. Here we see a great example of the principle that due to the progressive unfolding of revelation, "what is in the old concealed, is in the new revealed." It was not until the writing of the book of Revelation many hundreds of years later, that it became evident exactly what these chapters in Ezekiel where pointing towards. By using language directly taken from these chapters in his narratives of the final battle between Christ and the antichrist, the Apostle John makes it clear that Ezekiel’s message was not pointing towards a battle that would involve only the human enemies of Israel. Instead Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are a description of the final defeat of the antichrist and his followers from all the nations of the earth, who, in attacking the "camp of the saints and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:9), meet their doom in the "mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:4). Both of these passages are references to Mt. Zion, the dwelling place of God in the Old Testament.
John has revealed to us that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are, in fact, the narrative of the last battle of the Beast, Satan’s pawn. Gog is the great pretender who exalts himself and tries to take the crown of Christ, and destroy the bride of the Lamb. In that final battle, the false Christ, Gog, comes from his dwelling place, "Magog" (Ezek. 38:2) the false Zion of the North, gathering by lies and deceit his false church from the "four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8). Instead of the glory he desires, like Sodom, his inheritance is not the kingdom (Matthew 25:34), but rather fire. Fire that comes from heaven to consume his armies (Ezek. 38:22; 39:6, Rev. 20:9) and the fire of eternal punishment in Hell (Rev. 19:20, Rev. 20:9). This is the final doom of Gog and Magog.
This author presents a good thesis for the conclusion presented here, well worth the read
my apologies, the url for some reason is not responding, will try to fix???
The following is the summation of:
The Final Doom of Gog and Magog
The fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39 in Revelation 19-20
by Andrew J. Webb
The fulfillment of Ezekiel 38-39 in Revelation 19-20
by Andrew J. Webb
Chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel describe a final cataclysmic battle between Gog and his armies and the Lord that results in the utter devastation of all who oppose the Lord and his people Israel. Here we see a great example of the principle that due to the progressive unfolding of revelation, "what is in the old concealed, is in the new revealed." It was not until the writing of the book of Revelation many hundreds of years later, that it became evident exactly what these chapters in Ezekiel where pointing towards. By using language directly taken from these chapters in his narratives of the final battle between Christ and the antichrist, the Apostle John makes it clear that Ezekiel’s message was not pointing towards a battle that would involve only the human enemies of Israel. Instead Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are a description of the final defeat of the antichrist and his followers from all the nations of the earth, who, in attacking the "camp of the saints and the beloved city" (Rev. 20:9), meet their doom in the "mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 39:4). Both of these passages are references to Mt. Zion, the dwelling place of God in the Old Testament.
John has revealed to us that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are, in fact, the narrative of the last battle of the Beast, Satan’s pawn. Gog is the great pretender who exalts himself and tries to take the crown of Christ, and destroy the bride of the Lamb. In that final battle, the false Christ, Gog, comes from his dwelling place, "Magog" (Ezek. 38:2) the false Zion of the North, gathering by lies and deceit his false church from the "four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8). Instead of the glory he desires, like Sodom, his inheritance is not the kingdom (Matthew 25:34), but rather fire. Fire that comes from heaven to consume his armies (Ezek. 38:22; 39:6, Rev. 20:9) and the fire of eternal punishment in Hell (Rev. 19:20, Rev. 20:9). This is the final doom of Gog and Magog.
This author presents a good thesis for the conclusion presented here, well worth the read
my apologies, the url for some reason is not responding, will try to fix???
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Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.
That's as far as I'm planning to read. When you start like this, I know you've got nothing else.
Much love!
Help me? Help you? Aren't we just looking for truth here? I'm posting that truth.
Much love!
3 Resurrections
Active Member
AD 69-70 with Simon bar Gioras' army forcing his way into Jerusalem and establishing himself as the main leader over the other competing Zealot factions. Gog's battle started as a CIVIL war in Jerusalem, because Ezekiel 38:21 describes this battle as "every man's sword shall be against his brother." Finally, the Romans came and conquered Simon's army and took him hostage back to Rome for execution as the titular "king of the Jews".
The supernatural SEED (Christ) is the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Matthew 22:32 (KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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We are that offspring to whom belong the inheritance. The promises made to Abraham are for us. But that's what the Jews in Jesus time applied to themselves, and they were reproved for it by John the Baptist and Jesus:
And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. (Mt 3,9)
They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” (Joh 8,39–47)
Abrahams promises only belong to Christians. If you are Christ's, then you are Abrahams offspring, and heirs according to promise.
That's why we Christians are called Abrahams offspring. Abraham is our father, because we do the works of Abraham. The Jews didn't. They thought they have magical blood that made sure they are Gods people. But Jesus said no, you have for your father the devil. Why? Because you do the works of the devil.
Blood doesn't count. It never did. It's faith.
To Christians.
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