WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Davy]

Abraham, being the father of the faithful believed God and rejoiced to prophetically be given knowledge of (see) the prophesy fulfilled through his biological seed Isaac from whom the promised (Seed) Messiah, Savior would be born. The desire of Abraham was NOT for the physical promised land of Old, where he saw himself as stranger and pilgrim on the earth. His heart's desire was a far better country, that is an heavenly country prepared for them a city, Heavenly Jerusalem not of this world but from above.

Hebrews 11:11-19 (KJV) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Yes, but the part you're not understanding that I'm pointing to is what Apostle Paul also taught in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about The Gospel having been preached to Abraham.

All the following Scripture by Apostle Paul is about FAITH on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is NOT simply about the idea that Christ would be born through Abraham's seed. Or haven't you understood that the concept of FAITH is not the same thing as SEED?

Rom 4:9-13
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
KJV

That FAITH which Abraham had, before the law, wasn't about 'seed'. It was about the SAME FAITH that ALL BELIEVERS ON JESUS CHRIST HAVE, and that means The GOSPEL.

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV


Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

That above verse is very, very important in differentiating the matter.


Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

According to what Promise? According to the GOSPEL PROMISE BY FAITH, not by seed.

That means that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was literally... preached to Abraham, and THAT is what Abraham believed, BY FAITH, and that is HOW God imparted righteousness to Abraham, because of his FAITH.

That the Promise by FAITH would continue to be known... through Abraham's seed, is a secondary issue, and involves the chosen duties God gave to Israel to benefit all nations with The Gospel. Yet only a small 'remnant' of old Israel believed. Thus Apostle Paul does NOT confuse those two separate issues in those Romans 4 and Galatians 3 Chapters. God's Promise of The Spirit by Faith is one thing, but His Birthright blessings and His duties for the chosen 'seed' involving the 'care' of The Gospel of Jesus Christ is another thing.

 

[Marty fox]

Yet nothing in Zechariah 14 is meaning during a time when Jesus walked the earth. Yet is involving a time after He walked the earth then left the planet. IOW, Zechariah 14, some of it is meaning during His ascension. None of it is meaning before His ascension. And that some of it is meaning during His return after His ascension. And some of it is meaning after He has returned. After all, 'in that day' is obviously involving an era of time. Therefore, it is not unreasonable that 'in that day' can be involving an era of time during His ascension, then His return following His ascension, then an era of time after He has returned.

Keep in mind, I'm only meaning Zechariah 14 here. Clearly, some of the chapters that precede ch 14, is meaning when Christ walked the earth. For example, Zechariah 9:9. Except nothing recorded in ch 14 is meaning during when Zechariah 9:9 is meaning.

I did say "Clearly all first advent and century events".

"In that day" meant the times around the first advent as shown in the previous chapters not a few thousand years from then.

 

[rwb]

Yes, but the part you're not understanding that I'm pointing to is what Apostle Paul also taught in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 about The Gospel having been preached to Abraham.

All the following Scripture by Apostle Paul is about FAITH on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is NOT simply about the idea that Christ would be born through Abraham's seed. Or haven't you understood that the concept of FAITH is not the same thing as SEED?

Rom 4:9-13
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
KJV

That FAITH which Abraham had, before the law, wasn't about 'seed'. It was about the SAME FAITH that ALL BELIEVERS ON JESUS CHRIST HAVE, and that means The GOSPEL.

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV


Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

That above verse is very, very important in differentiating the matter.


Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

According to what Promise? According to the GOSPEL PROMISE BY FAITH, not by seed.

That means that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was literally... preached to Abraham, and THAT is what Abraham believed, BY FAITH, and that is HOW God imparted righteousness to Abraham, because of his FAITH.

That the Promise by FAITH would continue to be known... through Abraham's seed, is a secondary issue, and involves the chosen duties God gave to Israel to benefit all nations with The Gospel. Yet only a small 'remnant' of old Israel believed. Thus Apostle Paul does NOT confuse those two separate issues in those Romans 4 and Galatians 3 Chapters. God's Promise of The Spirit by Faith is one thing, but His Birthright blessings and His duties for the chosen 'seed' involving the 'care' of The Gospel of Jesus Christ is another thing.

What is the gospel you believe was preached to Abraham, if not the gospel of Christ the Messiah, the SEED of faith, coming supernaturally through the seed of Abraham?

Abraham heard the gospel of Christ who was to come with the Kingdom of God, and through hearing Abraham believed, in the same manner that whosoever on earth believes, according to grace through faith. Neither Abraham or any other human has faith unto righteousness through faith within themselves. Faith unto righteousness is of grace that is the gift of God unto eternal life.

Romans 10:8-13 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith to believe God was imputed to Abraham, not through his good work of faith, but through the work of God alone. It was Abraham believed God by grace through imputation of faith given him and he received the gift of God that is eternal life through Christ.

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (KJV) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Abraham was saved like all man are saved, by grace through faith that comes from God! It was ordained by God that Abraham would be the father of the supernatural SEED that is Christ. Abraham made no boast of this knowing that he was a workman of God created in Christ Jesus unto good works, therefore he obeyed God and God eternally saved him, making him an example of all who would be born again through the supernatural SEED that came from the loins of Abraham, the father of faith unto all who, like him believe in God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[rwb]

I did say "Clearly all first advent and century events".

"In that day" meant the times around the first advent as shown in the previous chapters not a few thousand years from then.

I believe "in that day" means from the time Christ came to earth a man until the seventh/last trumpet sounds.

 

[Marty fox]

I believe "in that day" means from the time Christ came to earth a man until the seventh/last trumpet sounds.

That would be the last days

2 Timothy 3:1​

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty

 

[rwb]

That would be the last days

2 Timothy 3:1​

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty

This is also the "last days". The "last days" the Prophets of Old foretell, came with Christ, and shall not end until time given the church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the gospel is proclaimed unto all nations shall be no longer when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[Davidpt]

I believe "in that day" means from the time Christ came to earth a man until the seventh/last trumpet sounds.

Does this mean you are being reasonable after all, to some degree, unlike some other Amils around here, and that you admit Zechariah 14 records the 2nd coming? Numerous Amils, and numerous Premils but not including Pretribbers, take the 7th trumpet to be involving the 2nd coming.

 

[Davidpt]

I did say "Clearly all first advent and century events".

"In that day" meant the times around the first advent as shown in the previous chapters not a few thousand years from then.

Since 70 AD obviously can't fit verse 2 nor 3 in Zechariah 14, what then do you propose can fit verse 2 and 3 but is not meaning thousands of years later?

 

[rwb]

Does this mean you are being reasonable after all, to some degree, unlike some other Amils around here, and that you admit Zechariah 14 records the 2nd coming? Numerous Amils, and numerous Premils but not including Pretribbers, take the 7th trumpet to be involving the 2nd coming.

Zechariah is prophesy pointing to the first advent of Christ in which all that is written concerning Him must come to pass before the last/seventh trumpet sounds which is when Christ shall come again. When the final (seventh/last) trumpet sounds "time shall be no longer."

 

[Davidpt]

Zechariah is prophesy pointing to the first advent of Christ in which all that is written concerning Him must come to pass before the last/seventh trumpet sounds which is when Christ shall come again. When the final (seventh/last) trumpet sounds "time shall be no longer."

Yet some of what is recorded in Zechariah 14 couldn't possibly fit between His first advent and 2nd advent. Therefore, must fit after His 2nd advent.

For example.

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 ¶And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


I will leave verses 16-19 out of it for now. These verses above, alone, prove that some of Zechariah 14 is looking beyond the 2nd coming.

Take verse 11, for instance. Imagine applying that prior to 70 AD rather than after 70 AD. As if verse 11 would still be true once 70 AD was fulfilled. Therefore, something post 70 AD has to explain verse 11.

Then compare verse 9 with the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11, where you already admit that the 7th trumpet is future still.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Keeping in mind that Zechariah 14:9 is meaning during when Zechariah 14:11 is meaning. And that verse 11 can't be meaning before 70 AD, but has to be meaning post 70 AD. Also keeping in mind that Jerusalem is back on the map again, except it doesn't fit the Jerusalem meant in verse 11. Come on then, let's start connecting the dots here. Not meaning Premils, meaning Amils. After all, Premils are already connecting the dots here.

Zechariah 14 predicts events that never occurred before 70 AD. It predicts events that have not occurred since 70 AD. It predicts geographical, political, and physical realities, not symbols, per the verses I submitted above. Zechariah 14:9 aligns directly with Revelation 11:15---a future event.

Therefore some of the events described in Zechariah 14 are after the second coming, not before it. The only eschatological view that accommodates this sequence without strain is Premil.

 

[rwb]

Yet some of what is recorded in Zechariah 14 couldn't possibly fit between His first advent and 2nd advent. Therefore, must fit after His 2nd advent.

For example.

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 ¶And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

I will leave verses 16-19 out of it for now. These verses above, alone, prove that some of Zechariah 14 is looking beyond the 2nd coming.

Take verse 11, for instance. Imagine applying that prior to 70 AD rather than after 70 AD. As if verse 11 would still be true once 70 AD was fulfilled. Therefore, something post 70 AD has to explain verse 11.

Then compare verse 9 with the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11, where you already admit that the 7th trumpet is future still.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Keeping in mind that Zechariah 14:9 is meaning during when Zechariah 14:11 is meaning. And that verse 11 can't be meaning before 70 AD, but has to be meaning post 70 AD. Also keeping in mind that Jerusalem is back on the map again, except it doesn't fit the Jerusalem meant in verse 11. Come on then, let's start connecting the dots here. Not meaning Premils, meaning Amils. After all, Premils are already connecting the dots here.

Are you certain some verses don't fit the day of the Lord when the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus would usher in the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God telling us the way to both know and enter His Kingdom we MUST be born again? You cannot resolve the problem you create because you cannot believe what you cannot physically understand. You, like the pharisees of Old are preoccupied with a physical kingdom that you believe MUST come to this earth. This after Christ tells us the Kingdom of God is NOT now of this world, cannot be physically observed, because the Kingdom of God is within us. Stop trying to resolve the problems you create by viewing the prophets through spiritual, not physical, fulfillment. That means using the New Testament revealed to understand the prophets of Old concealed.

 

[FredVB]

Jesus Christ, the prophesied Son of Man, returns at the coming battle of the nations against Jerusalem and that is the context of Zechariah 14, so those events in it are very likely at that time.

 

[Marty fox]

Since 70 AD obviously can't fit verse 2 nor 3 in Zechariah 14, what then do you propose can fit verse 2 and 3 but is not meaning thousands of years later?

I do see them fitting what started in 70AD. God used Rome for His purpose to judge Jerusalem for rejecting and killing His Son and then Rome eventually fell

Matthew 22
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Matthew 21
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.

Revelation 17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Revelation 16
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

[Davy]

What is the gospel you believe was preached to Abraham, if not the gospel of Christ the Messiah, the SEED of faith, coming supernaturally through the seed of Abraham?

There you go again vainly... trying to establish SEED over FAITH.

If you believe you will be saved because of being born a Jew then your soul is in danger of hellfire. All souls MUST believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah) to be saved. No shortcuts, and seed birth won't do it either.

Thus you need to get your mind on the Promise by FAITH, and not the idea of 'seed', because Abraham believed the Promise by FAITH which is how God counted righteousness to Abraham. And I have already shown that from Apostle Paul in Romans 4 per my previous post.

 

[Davidpt]

Are you certain some verses don't fit the day of the Lord when the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus would usher in the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God telling us the way to both know and enter His Kingdom we MUST be born again? You cannot resolve the problem you create because you cannot believe what you cannot physically understand. You, like the pharisees of Old are preoccupied with a physical kingdom that you believe MUST come to this earth. This after Christ tells us the Kingdom of God is NOT now of this world, cannot be physically observed, because the Kingdom of God is within us. Stop trying to resolve the problems you create by viewing the prophets through spiritual, not literal, fulfillment. That means using the New Testament revealed to understand the prophets of Old concealed.

Let's focus on some of my arguments then, thus allowing you or any other Amil the opportunity to debunk them and provide the alleged correct understanding instead.

Here is one of my arguments.

"Take verse 11, for instance. Imagine applying that prior to 70 AD rather than after 70 AD. As if verse 11 would still be true once 70 AD was fulfilled. Therefore, something post 70 AD has to explain verse 11.

Keeping in mind that Zechariah 14:9 is meaning during when Zechariah 14:11 is meaning. And that verse 11 can't be meaning before 70 AD, but has to be meaning post 70 AD. Also keeping in mind that Jerusalem is back on the map again, except it doesn't fit the Jerusalem meant in verse 11."

It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's another thing to show why you disagree, and why you are correct, not the other person, then providing compelling reasons why you are correct instead. Otherwise, it only adds up to an opinion. Except opinions alone fail to prove anything one way or the other.

I'm guessing that not even most Premils will agree with me here, but the Jerusalem meant in verse 11 is not meaning the old Jerusalem pertaining to the here and now, it is pertaining to the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven. The reason we can know that, is plainly simple. Only the new Jerusalem can fit-- shall there be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Even the Jerusalem on the map as we speak, couldn't possibly be the Jerusalem meant in verse 11.

Except I'm not meaning the new Jerusalem as in is presently applicable to the here and now, spiritually, I'm meaning the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven in the future. And when does it come down from heaven? Before Christ returns? Or after He returns?

Look at this in the text, for example, verse 10---All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem

Seriously, how does one apply a compass direction, south in this case, to that of a city , if the Jerusalem meant isn't even a real place, nor located in a literal geographical region? If one looked this up an a map, an ancient map even, would they be able to locate these places on this map---the land--from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem? Or should one do something utterly absurd here, apply a compass direction to something that is meaning spiritually? That might be like saying the NT church is south of this place, or south of that place, etc. Totally absurd. Not even Amils would propose such nonsense. So why are Amils proposing absurd nonsense pertaining to verse 10 and 11 in Zechariah 14, by either insisting those verses are to be taken spiritually, or that they are to be taken literally, except not after the 2nd coming, before the 2nd coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does this mean you are being reasonable after all, to some degree, unlike some other Amils around here, and that you admit Zechariah 14 records the 2nd coming? Numerous Amils, and numerous Premils but not including Pretribbers, take the 7th trumpet to be involving the 2nd coming.

If it's reasonable to conclude that Zechariah 14 records the 2nd coming, then it should be easy for you to reconcile what is written in Zechariah 14 with what is written in the NT about the second coming. But, you can't do it. And you know it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's focus on some of my arguments then, thus allowing you or any other Amil the opportunity to debunk them and provide the alleged correct understanding instead.

Here is one of my arguments.

"Take verse 11, for instance. Imagine applying that prior to 70 AD rather than after 70 AD. As if verse 11 would still be true once 70 AD was fulfilled. Therefore, something post 70 AD has to explain verse 11.

Keeping in mind that Zechariah 14:9 is meaning during when Zechariah 14:11 is meaning. And that verse 11 can't be meaning before 70 AD, but has to be meaning post 70 AD. Also keeping in mind that Jerusalem is back on the map again, except it doesn't fit the Jerusalem meant in verse 11."

It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's another thing to show why you disagree, and why you are correct, not the other person, then providing compelling reasons why you are correct instead. Otherwise, it only adds up to an opinion. Except opinions alone fail to prove anything one way or the other.

I'm guessing that not even most Premils will agree with me here, but the Jerusalem meant in verse 11 is not meaning the old Jerusalem pertaining to the here and now, it is pertaining to the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven. The reason we can know that, is plainly simple. Only the new Jerusalem can fit-- shall there be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Even the Jerusalem on the map as we speak, couldn't possibly be the Jerusalem meant in verse 11.

Except I'm not meaning the new Jerusalem as in is presently applicable to the here and now, spiritually, I'm meaning the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven in the future. And when does it come down from heaven? Before Christ returns? Or after He returns?

If Zechariah 14:11 is related to the following passage (Rev 21:1-4), as you believe, then why are you a Premil? Clearly, when the new Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven there will then be "no more death". Yet, you believe there will be more death after Zechariah 14:11 and Rev 21:1-4 are fulfilled. You should be willing to address this.

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

How much more clear can this be? There will be no more death after the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God when the first heaven and first earth (the current heaven and earth) pass away and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in . Why do you have more death occurring after this when that blatantly contradicts this text?

Look at this in the text, for example, verse 10---All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem

Seriously, how does one apply a compass direction, south in this case, to that of a city , if the Jerusalem meant isn't even a real place, nor located in a literal geographical region? If one looked this up an a map, an ancient map even, would they be able to locate these places on this map---the land--from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem? Or should one do something utterly absurd here, apply a compass direction to something that is meaning spiritually? That might be like saying the NT church is south of this place, or south of that place, etc. Totally absurd. Not even Amils would propose such nonsense. So why are Amils proposing absurd nonsense pertaining to verse 10 and 11 in Zechariah 14, by either insisting those verses are to be taken spiritually, or that they are to be taken literally, except not after the 2nd coming, before the 2nd coming?

You have no idea how hard you are to follow sometimes. Are you claiming that you think verse 10 is literal and verse 11 is not? If so, where is the consistency in that kind of approach to interpreting Zechariah 14?

 

[rwb]

There you go again vainly... trying to establish SEED over FAITH.

If you believe you will be saved because of being born a Jew then your soul is in danger of hellfire. All souls MUST believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah) to be saved. No shortcuts, and seed birth won't do it either.

Thus you need to get your mind on the Promise by FAITH, and not the idea of 'seed', because Abraham believed the Promise by FAITH which is how God counted righteousness to Abraham. And I have already shown that from Apostle Paul in Romans 4 per my previous post.

Without the SEED there is NO faith!

 

[rwb]

"Take verse 11, for instance. Imagine applying that prior to 70 AD rather than after 70 AD. As if verse 11 would still be true once 70 AD was fulfilled.

David, I'm not interested in trying to imagine what is written in the Word of God. God knew it would be very hard, and some would never understand, some things from Scripture. That's why Christ came performing signs and miracles. The greatest miracle of all was God Himself coming down from heaven to be in the hearts of man. Through God, the Holy Spirit man would learn to believe things that cannot be seen with physical sight but must be spiritually discerned. The promise of God foretold of Old of the day of the Lord coming was made known to man at Pentecost. When God entering into man through His Spirit, God had Peter write: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;". Hear the words of God's prophet, Joel.

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:28-32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

You cannot read these words recorded by God's Prophet, Joel, and Peter and then deny the day of the Lord ALL the Prophets of Old foretell would come, has indeed come and this is proof of that FACT that should leave no man room to deny.

This day of the Lord the Prophets foretell came to earth when God came down from heaven to be in the hearts of all who believe in Christ, the Son of God made flesh. But you, clinging to premillennialism continue to argue the prophets foretell two ages (day) called the day of the Lord insisting what you cannot prove but still you want to imagine. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to understand what you might be imagining or guessing because you refuse to believe what you cannot physically see. It seems to me that you are attempting to re-direct the discussion because you and I both know that you cannot biblically prove what you allege.

 

[Davidpt]

David, I'm not interested in trying to imagine what is written in the Word of God. God knew it would be very hard, and some would never understand, some things from Scripture. That's why Christ came performing signs and miracles. The greatest miracle of all was God Himself coming down from heaven to be in the hearts of man. Through God, the Holy Spirit man would learn to believe things that cannot be seen with physical sight but must be spiritually discerned. The promise of God foretold of Old of the day of the Lord coming was made known to man at Pentecost. When God entering into man through His Spirit, God had Peter write: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;". Hear the words of God's prophet, Joel.

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:28-32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

You cannot read these words recorded by God's Prophet, Joel, and Peter and then deny the day of the Lord ALL the Prophets of Old foretell would come, has indeed come and this is proof of that FACT that should leave no man room to deny.

This day of the Lord the Prophets foretell came to earth when God came down from heaven to be in the hearts of all who believe in Christ, the Son of God made flesh. But you, clinging to premillennialism continue to argue the prophets foretell two ages (day) called the day of the Lord insisting what you cannot prove but still you want to imagine. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to understand what you might be imagining or guessing because you refuse to believe what you cannot physically see. It seems to me that you are attempting to re-direct the discussion because you and I both know that you cannot biblically prove what you allege.

Shouldn't Scripture interpret Scripture?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


All I see the text saying and meaning is that everything recorded in verses 17-20 precede the day of the Lord. And that Matthew 24:29, for one, gives us the timing of---The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood. In Matthew 24:29, for example. It does not lead to any of these things recorded in Acts 2:17-18. What is recorded in those 2 verses precede Matthew 24:29. And so does verse 21 in Acts 2.

Even though it's likely not meaning in the literal sense in regards to the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood. How many times should we assume that will be fulfilled in the last days? Only 1 time? Or multiple times at different times?

Should we reason things like some interpreters do, that the DOTL event in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is not the same DOTL event in 2 Peter 3:10? And guess what? Acts 2:20 also records a DOTL event. If 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is not the same DOTL event in 2 Peter 3:10, nor is the DOTL event in Acts 2:20 the same DOTL event in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 nor in 2 Peter 3:10, now we end up with 3 DOTL events rather than just one.



Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

BTW, I am not disputing that Acts 2:17-18, 21, began 2000 years ago during Pentecost. What I am disputing is that verse 20 was also already fulfilled 2000 years ago during Pentecost when both Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12 prove otherwise. Therefore, verse 20 in Acts 2 has zero to do with what was fulfilled at that time. The sun shall go dark, before the DOTL comes. The keyword is 'before'. It means the sun shall go dark first, then the DOTL follows. Mathew 24:29 nor Revelation 6:12 was fulfilled during Pentecost 2000 years ago. Everything in Acts 2:18-21 precede the DOTL, not occur during the DOTL. After all, isn't that what 'before' typically means, to precede something?

I don't get it then? Some Interpreters insist, thus argue that Scripture interprets Scripture then contradict that by not even interpreting Scripture with Scripture.