Faith alone

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm... well in a sense ~ the one in which we are now being saved ~ that's correct. But in the sense that we have been saved not so much... and if you need some Scriptural references here, I'll just point out two that I've pointed out several times before (though you say I haven't):

I reply to scripture.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.​

Now you're using scripture, but you omit the point you're making.
Is it safe to assume that you're referring to AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM?
I'll proceed accordingly:
Read the rest:
THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM....

What is chosen is not a person, but HOW we will be presented....
IN HIM it was predestinated that we should be HOLY AND BLAMELESS.

The predestinating is always as to
METHOD
PURPOSE/REASON

Never WHO
(excpet in some rare instances: Abraham, Mary, etc).

In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,​

Again,,,we are predestined as sons THROUGH JESUS.
HOW.

to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time,​

Yes sir.
According to God's PURPOSE
set forth IN CHRIST, as a PLAN (for our salvation).

to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.​

Right.
According to the PURPOSE of God.
Not the WHO.

In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14)​

Yes.
"When you HEARD the word of truth and BELIEVED in Him...you were SEALED with the promise of the Holy Spirit".

Yes sir.
THIS is how one is saved.
They HEAR the gospel and they BELIEVE.

​

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:1-10)​

Agreed.

​

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead​

Again... HE HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS...
HOW
not WHO.

to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 13-5)​

We'd have to get into the mistaken belief of OSAS or Preservation of the Saints...
and I don't know if you care to.

Nothing in any of those passages about anything we did before God saved us, much less somehow deserved or merited it (quite the opposite of that...).

Correct.
I don't know any Christian that would state that we did anything to BECOME SAVED.

So let me ask it this way: Are we born again of the Spirit because of what we have done? <smile>

Who said we are??

Grace and peace to you?

Why the question mark?

 

[amigo de christo]

and those who claim they have faith but do nothing will not inherit salvation. Their faith is a dead lifeless thing that cannot save.

I believe that faith has built in works, finished before the foundation of the world that we walk in to complete. You keep saying "faith and "works" because you are looking at it from greek mindset and see them seperate. To the hebrew, faith was an action word and not some mental concept. It contained works

I am not condemning any in the OSAS realm that actually have true faith. They will demonstrate their faith by their works....just as James states. Do you believe that James was wrong when he clearly states that faith without works is dead? That faith is not complete without works? Cab a dead faith save the soul?

Those who cliam faith in Christ and yet walk in sin , justifying their evil , whose works are to sin
DO not know him . that be dead as a doornail faith . Of course .
There are two types of deceived
those who follow any other religoin
and then those who profess to follow Christ and wear wool , yet have deceived themselves and remolded
an image of what they think be GOD and Christ . and yet their image sure do contradicts His words .
We need to get up and get refreshed again in the Holy scriptures , being in prayer
and learning for ourselves . And again i warn us all not to be a co helper to and supporter of
those who push ecumenicalism interfaith . Get out before its f orever too late .
Many will be taken down the wrong road . The BROAD ONE .
So lets return to the scrips and be busy learning and doing the things of the LORD .

 

[PinSeeker]

I reply to scripture.

<chuckles>

Now you're using scripture, but you omit the point you're making.

HAHAHA! Now that's funny. Ohhhh, there it is again... "...still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." <smile>

Is it safe to assume that you're referring to AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM?

In part, yes...

I'll proceed accordingly:

Yes, please "proceed." <smile>

Read the rest:

You mean as if I didn't or haven't? <smile>

THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM.... What is chosen is not a person...

Hmmm, even though Paul explicitly says, in Ephesians 1:4, that (and I quote) "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..."? Goodness gracious.

, but HOW we will be presented.... IN HIM it was predestinated that we should be HOLY AND BLAMELESS.

It's both. A person... people... are chosen, and we... you even say 'we' there, so somehow you refute even your own statement above that "what is chosen is not a person" ...and we will be presented to Him holy and blameless. So a person... a people, all of us who are born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ... and how we will be presented, and... my main point is by Whom... the One primarily responsible for making all this a reality. It's unmistakble, really. But somehow... <smile>

"When you HEARD the word of truth and BELIEVED in Him...you were SEALED with the promise of the Holy Spirit".

Sure, faith comes by hearing, which is what Paul says ~ verbatim ~ in Romans 10:17... "faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." But here you are... missing, I guess... the key adverb in Paul's sentence there. The adverb 'when' is very, very important, and what you seem to be doing ~ and it's a quite common thing, unfortunately ~ is making it into... at least inadvertently... a 'why,' or rather a 'because.' And that just should not be done. Paul is crystal clear in Romans 8 and Ephesians 2, and Peter the same in 1 Peter 1, concerning the order of events and who does what in salvation:

• "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified" (Romans 8:29:30)
• "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:1-10)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

We'd have to get into the mistaken belief of OSAS or Preservation of the Saints... and I don't know if you care to.

Well, we already have; I'm very much aware of your mistaken perception of "OSAS" and preservation/perseverance of the saints, as I said previously. That's the very issue. One of them, anyway. <smile>

I don't know any Christian that would state that we did anything to BECOME SAVED.

Yet, you ~ inadvertently, I guess ~ kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda are. <smile>

Who said we are??

Said ee are... born again of the Spirit because of what we have done? That would be you. Again, maybe you don't realize it, but you're at least insinuating that God saves us because we believe. And that's just... well... I disagree. <smile> But, you know, it's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

<chuckles>


HAHAHA! Now that's funny. Ohhhh, there it is again... "...still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." <smile>


In part, yes...


Yes, please "proceed." <smile>


You mean as if I didn't or haven't? <smile>


Hmmm, even though Paul explicitly says, in Ephesians 1:4, that (and I quote) "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..."? Goodness gracious.


It's both. A person... people... are chosen, and we... you even say 'we' there, so somehow you refute even your own statement above that "what is chosen is not a person" ...and we will be presented to Him holy and blameless. So a person... a people, all of us who are born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ... and how we will be presented, and... my main point is by Whom... the One primarily responsible for making all this a reality. It's unmistakble, really. But somehow... <smile>


Sure, faith comes by hearing, which is what Paul says ~ verbatim ~ in Romans 10:17... "faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." But here you are... missing, I guess... the key adverb in Paul's sentence there. The adverb 'when' is very, very important, and what you seem to be doing ~ and it's a quite common thing, unfortunately ~ is making it into... at least inadvertently... a 'why,' or rather a 'because.' And that just should not be done. Paul is crystal clear in Romans 8 and Ephesians 2, and Peter the same in 1 Peter 1, concerning the order of events and who does what in salvation:

• "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Foreknowing is not causational.

Those whom He FOREKNEW
He predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

HOW
not
WHO

• in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified" (Romans 8:29:30)
• "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:1-10)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Well, we already have; I'm very much aware of your mistaken perception of "OSAS" and preservation/perseverance of the saints, as I said previously. That's the very issue. One of them, anyway. <smile>


Yet, you ~ inadvertently, I guess ~ kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda are. <smile>


Said ee are... born again of the Spirit because of what we have done? That would be you. Again, maybe you don't realize it, but you're at least insinuating that God saves us because we believe. And that's just... well... I disagree. <smile> But, you know, it's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Looks like you don't care to have a serious conversation.
And why would you?

God does all the choosing..
God does all the maintenance work..

WE have no part at all in any part of our salvation.

So....
I guess there's nothing much for YOU to discuss.

Happily, the GREAT major part of Christianity realizes
that the reformed/calvinist system is not found anywhere in the NT.
And was NEVER taught in the early church.

So I'm a happy camper.

 

[shepherdsword]

I already explained what I believe James is teaching in post number #111 but apparently you and I interpret James 2:14-26 differently. I believe that context is key.

You only explained what you THOUGHT James was saying. You are viewing it through the OSAS paradigm and don't understand him.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James 2:14-26 doesn’t contradict salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) James exposes dead faith, without transformation. The faith that saves always produces fruit, but the fruit is not the cause of salvation. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works yet genuine faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. I believe that man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

I know he doesn't. because he points out that works are a part of faith.

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works

Sheesh ..we are not saved by OUR works. You keep thinking I am saying we are saved by OUR works. I am not. We are saved by HIS works. And HIS works are a part of believing. Pray for ears to hear

. (Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. I'm glad to hear you say that you are not condemning any in the OSAS realm that actually have true faith. OSAS becomes problematic when folks attach a license to sin/license for immortality to it just like NOSAS becomes problematic when folks attach works-righteousness to it.

Your whole problem is that you fail to grasp the difference in works that Paul and James expressed. They arein two different contexts. You keep citing "context" when you fail to comprehend it. Paul is speaking of works based on the self effort of man. We are not saved by those. James is speaking of the works that are built into, and therefor a part of faith. These works were finished before the foundation of the world. God had preordained them that we might walk IN them.

Eph 2:9-10
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (works based on self effort) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.(works built into faith)

Let's see what happens when one doesn't have true faith

Heb 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

These works finished before the foundation of the world are a part of faith and cannot be made separate from it. Stop with the paradigm "faith/mental agreement" and understand the biblical faith as "faith\producing works"

 

[shepherdsword]

Those who cliam faith in Christ and yet walk in sin , justifying their evil , whose works are to sin
DO not know him . that be dead as a doornail faith . Of course .
There are two types of deceived
those who follow any other religoin
and then those who profess to follow Christ and wear wool , yet have deceived themselves and remolded
an image of what they think be GOD and Christ . and yet their image sure do contradicts His words .
We need to get up and get refreshed again in the Holy scriptures , being in prayer
and learning for ourselves . And again i warn us all not to be a co helper to and supporter of
those who push ecumenicalism interfaith . Get out before its f orever too late .
Many will be taken down the wrong road . The BROAD ONE .
So lets return to the scrips and be busy learning and doing the things of the LORD .

I am all for unity of the body of Christ. HOWEVER, I agree with your concern about a ecumenical union with the pagan RCC. That is the spirit of antichrist.

 

[amigo de christo]

Foreknowing is not causational.

Those whom He FOREKNEW
He predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

HOW
not
WHO

Looks like you don't care to have a serious conversation.
And why would you?

God does all the choosing..
God does all the maintenance work..

WE have no part at all in any part of our salvation.

So....
I guess there's nothing much for YOU to discuss.

Happily, the GREAT major part of Christianity realizes
that the reformed/calvinist system is not found anywhere in the NT.
And was NEVER taught in the early church.

So I'm a happy camper.

Beware . Beware and take heed .
Listen real carefully to this next reminder my friend .
It dont seem to matter what one is these days they are all headed right into the ecumenical union with Another
god , another father and a wife who be its harlot .
WE can ill afford that .
But yes calvin was no man that any should have sat under .
But it dont seem to matter to any of them , THEY all falling for a harlots love to unite them all as one
and even with the false religoins as well . I am telling us , most no longer even truly
beleive the gospel . For we cannot claim to Believe and yet preach unbelief .
According to a survey this was already on the rise around two thousand . About twenty five percent
were already into beleiving that GOD was okay with all religoins .
By twenty eighteen that number had soared . IT doubled at fifty one percent .
But the real s hocker was just a short three years later it already was at seventy percent .
SIP FROM A WHORES CUP and that is what you get . delusion that only brings in more and more deceptoin
till the whole is rotted . Lets bible up and exhort with the TRUTH .
Cause this love train that many are now on , OH they have no idea its on track
for a SUDDEN wreck , if you will . ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

I am all for unity of the body of Christ. HOWEVER, I agree with your concern about a ecumenical union with the pagan RCC. That is the spirit of antichrist.

From whence came this ecumenical interfaith . FROM the RCC .
so lets remember that the next time ya prostesetant nar led realm hollers all about this ecumenical interfaith finding common ground .
Came FROM A WHORE it surely did . But as i been saying for a long long time
ITS NOW ALL OVER the protestant realm . I mean all over it in some form or another and its only get ting worse my friend .
Lets bible up . Exhort with the truth , be in prayer , be diligent
And sit not with , be no co helper too , A whores love .

 

[amigo de christo]

Never sit under
never be co helper to
A harlot . Nor heed her lovers who do her bidding . The end will be perdition .

 

[mailmandan]

You only explained what you THOUGHT James was saying. You are viewing it through the OSAS paradigm and don't understand him.

So, I only THOUGHT that James said, says/claims to have faith in James 2:14 and I will show you my faith by my works in James 2:18? It's clear to me that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. This has nothing to do with OSAS vs. NOSAS. James is simply arguing against an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

I know he doesn't. because he points out that works are a part of faith.

If works were a "part of faith," then works would be the "essence" of faith and salvation through faith, not works then becomes salvation through faith and works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was confused and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works. That kept me trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. It's imperative that we don't get this wrong!

Sheesh ..we are not saved by OUR works. You keep thinking I am saying we are saved by OUR works. I am not. We are saved by HIS works. And HIS works are a part of believing. Pray for ears to hear

Calling those works HIS works doesn't change the fact that believers are not passive in accomplishing those works. Your argument sounds similar to the same argument that Roman Catholics make in regard to works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic about salvation through faith, not works and here is what he stated below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, etc..

His argument above in blue about faith being defined as and includes these works above culminates in salvation by faith (his version of faith) and works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved based on accomplishing this list of works above so then it's no longer salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) but salvation by faith and works. Roman Catholics basically teach salvation by faith "infused" with works (folks who attend the church of Christ say faith "conjoined" with works) and then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation. I've heard Roman Catholics say that works are an "integral part" of faith.

*That critical error culminates in works righteousness. Coming to understand that critical error led me to no longer trust in works for salvation and instead I came to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which was my turning point to salvation. Praise God!

Your whole problem is that you fail to grasp the difference in works that Paul and James expressed. They are in two different contexts. You keep citing "context" when you fail to comprehend it. Paul is speaking of works based on the self effort of man. We are not saved by those. James is speaking of the works that are built into, and therefore a part of faith. These works were finished before the foundation of the world. God had preordained them that we might walk IN them.

Your whole problem is making works a "part of faith" or in other words the very "essence of faith." That culminates in works salvation/works righteousness. Paul does not merely limit works to self-effort of man. Paul covers all the bases on works when he said God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6) we are not saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace and we are not justified by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:16) and it's not by works of righteousness (works done in righteousness) which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) and God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works. (2 Timothy 1:9)

So, in order to get around those verses above, one would have to end up teaching we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works when Paul never stated that. I typically hear others who teach salvation by faith and works say that when Paul says we are not saved by works, he is merely talking about "works of the law" and not good works in general. Well, that argument is bogus because when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

So, the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument (which I often hear from Roman Catholics and others who teach salvation by faith and works) are in error. Now just because we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them doesn't mean that believers do not accomplish these good works and we simply call them God's works. God does not accomplish these good works for us while we passively sit by.

Eph 2:9-10
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (works based on self effort) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works built into faith)

That is in error and contradicts Ephesians 2:8,9. We are made alive together with Christ FIRST by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) at which point faith becomes established then we are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. We must not put the cart before the horse by redefining faith to include works as the very essence of faith. Faith produces works so they are not automatically built into faith.

Let's see what happens when one doesn't have true faith

Heb 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

These works finished before the foundation of the world are a part of faith and cannot be made separate from it. Stop with the paradigm "faith/mental agreement" and understand the biblical faith as "faith\producing works"

Biblical faith is deeper than mere mental agreement as we see in James 2:19, in which the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," yet they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Biblical faith involves trust and reliance which goes beyond mere intellectual agreement. Biblical faith is alive in Christ and results in producing good works. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest. Believers enter that rest and not unbelievers.

The works finished from the foundation of the world refer to God's creative work. This has nothing to do with salvation by works on our part. The completed work with the rest that God has provided is accessible to believers while warning that unbelievers will not enter in.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, I only THOUGHT that James said, says/claims to have faith in James 2:14 and I will show you my faith by my works in James 2:18? It's clear to me that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. This has nothing to do with OSAS vs. NOSAS. James is simply arguing against an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

If works were a "part of faith," then works would be the "essence" of faith and salvation through faith, not works then becomes salvation through faith and works in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was confused and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works. That kept me trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. It's imperative that we don't get this wrong!

Calling those works HIS works doesn't change the fact that believers are not passive in accomplishing those works. Your argument sounds similar to the same argument that Roman Catholics make in regard to works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic about salvation through faith, not works and here is what he stated below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith includes being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, etc..

His argument above in blue about faith being defined as and includes these works above culminates in salvation by faith (his version of faith) and works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved based on accomplishing this list of works above so then it's no longer salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) but salvation by faith and works. Roman Catholics basically teach salvation by faith "infused" with works (folks who attend the church of Christ say faith "conjoined" with works) and then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation. I've heard Roman Catholics say that works are an "integral part" of faith.

*That critical error culminates in works righteousness. Coming to understand that critical error led me to no longer trust in works for salvation and instead I came to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, which was my turning point to salvation. Praise God!

Your whole problem is making works a "part of faith" or in other words the very "essence of faith." That culminates in works salvation/works righteousness. Paul does not merely limit works to self-effort of man. Paul covers all the bases on works when he said God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6) we are not saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace and we are not justified by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:16) and it's not by works of righteousness (works done in righteousness) which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) and God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works. (2 Timothy 1:9)

So, in order to get around those verses above, one would have to end up teaching we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works when Paul never stated that. I typically hear others who teach salvation by faith and works say that when Paul says we are not saved by works, he is merely talking about "works of the law" and not good works in general. Well, that argument is bogus because when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

So, the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument (which I often hear from Roman Catholics and others who teach salvation by faith and works) are in error. Now just because we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them doesn't mean that believers do not accomplish these good works and we simply call them God's works. God does not accomplish these good works for us while we passively sit by.

That is in error and contradicts Ephesians 2:8,9. We are made alive together with Christ FIRST by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8) at which point faith becomes established then we are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. We must not put the cart before the horse by redefining faith to include works as the very essence of faith. Faith produces works so they are not automatically built into faith.

Biblical faith is deeper than mere mental agreement as we see in James 2:19, in which the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," yet they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Biblical faith involves trust and reliance which goes beyond mere intellectual agreement. Biblical faith is alive in Christ and results in producing good works. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest. Believers enter that rest and not unbelievers.

The works finished from the foundation of the world refer to God's creative work. This has nothing to do with salvation by works on our part. The completed work with the rest that God has provided is accessible to believers while warning that unbelievers will not enter in.

Typical of you Dan.
@shepherdsword has already refuted all of your above statements...
which means you don't even READ what members post.

For instance he already has addressed belief as only mental assent.

And you REFUSE to accept plain and crystal clear scripture for what you THINK it states.

James said we are NOT SAVED by faith alone.

Do you suppose James understood what faith is?

OK.
That's all I want to say.
I'm not beginning another conversation rigth now.

Maybe in the future...
(not much more to say - but I'll still be around).

 

[PinSeeker]

Foreknowing is not causational.

It is. The knowing is active, not passive, and knowing in the sense of both choosing and loving, and it fits perfectly with what Jesus said to His disciples and by extension to us in John 15:16 ~ "you did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit..." ~ as John says in 1 John 4:19, "we love because He first loved us."

Those whom He FOREKNEW
He predestined TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

HOW
not
WHO

<chuckles>

• WHO ~ those whom He foreknew (which is a limited group, not all, a very important point also)
• HOW ~ those whom He foreknew (yes, how, but again, synonymous with fore-loved and fore-chose)

...and, GodsGrace...​

• WHY, as in FOR WHAT, not how ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son

Again... goodness gracious.

Looks like you don't care to have a serious conversation.

<chuckles> One might wonder what 'serious' means in your world...

WE have no part at all in any part of our salvation.

Not in making it happen, so with regard to works of any kind and somehow meriting God's mercy and grace and salavation itself, no. Otherwise, grace is not grace, which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11...

"at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6)​

So.... I guess there's nothing much for YOU to discuss.

Ah, backing out. Yeah, probably a good time for you to do that...

Happily, the GREAT major part of Christianity realizes
that the reformed/calvinist system is not found anywhere in the NT.
And was NEVER taught in the early church.

As I said, the misunderstanding ~ and often purposeful misinformation ~ of what the Reformers truly taught pervades especially the western church. For starters, the whole impetus of the Reformation was to "extract" the church from Catholic corruption and to return the church to its Biblical, apostolic roots.

So I'm a happy camper.

Well good for you. So am I. LOL! In conversations like this, though, there's always ~ obviously ~ something much more... evident, underlying, and troubling, really... going on than "happiness"... invariably, pretty much, from the Arminian side. Shouldn't be so, but so it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[mailmandan]

Typical of you Dan.
@shepherdsword has already refuted all of your above statements...
which means you don't even READ what members post.

For instance he already has addressed belief as only mental assent.

And you REFUSE to accept plain and crystal clear scripture for what you THINK it states.

James said we are NOT SAVED by faith alone.

Do you suppose James understood what faith is?

OK.
That's all I want to say.
I'm not beginning another conversation rigth now.

Maybe in the future...
(not much more to say - but I'll still be around).

I disagree that sheperdsword refuted all of my statements. You see it that way because you also believe that James is teaching salvation by faith and works in contradiction to Paul. (Romans 4:2-6) We have already discussed this many times before.

James is simply saying we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:24) and not by a bare profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works (James 2:14) which is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*

 

[GodsGrace]

It is. The knowing is active, not passive, and knowing in the sense of both choosing and loving, and it fits perfectly with what Jesus said to His disciples and by extension to us in John 15:16 ~ "you did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit..."

Just in case you didn't know....
In John 15 Jesus is speaking to HIS APOSTLES (which were still called disciples at the time - I'm sure you know why).

Jesus did, indeed, choose His disciples who would later become the Apostles.

~ as John says in 1 John 4:19, "we love because He first loved us."


<chuckles>

• WHO ~ those whom He foreknew (which is a limited group, not all, a very important point also)
• HOW ~ those whom He foreknew (yes, how, but again, synonymous with fore-loved and fore-chose)

...and, GodsGrace...​

• WHY, as in FOR WHAT, not how ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son

Again... goodness gracious.


<chuckles> One might wonder what 'serious' means in your world...


Not in making it happen, so with regard to works of any kind and somehow meriting God's mercy and grace and salavation itself, no. Otherwise, grace is not grace, which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11...

"at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6)​

Ah, backing out. Yeah, probably a good time for you to do that...


As I said, the misunderstanding ~ and often purposeful misinformation ~ of what the Reformers truly taught pervades especially the western church. For starters, the whole impetus of the Reformation was to "extract" the church from Catholic corruption and to return the church to its Biblical, apostolic roots.


Well good for you. So am I. LOL! In conversations like this, though, there's always ~ obviously ~ something much more... evident, underlying, and troubling, really... going on than "happiness"... invariably, pretty much, from the Arminian side. Shouldn't be so, but so it is.

Grace and peace to you.

As I've already stated...
I enjoy serious conversation...
YOU are unable to have one.

 

[amigo de christo]

What i say to us all is that doctrine is very very important
For many worship a god that feeds their emotions
and have no idea their god is actually deceiving them and trodding under foot the very Words of GOD
and of CHRIST , that they think they follow .
Doctrine does matter .
what we love does matter .
EITHER we love the truth and thus THE GOD who is TRUTH and INSPIRED the words of truth
OR WE decieving ourselves . This might be perhaps the most hated message
but may the peoples hear and receive it . Its time for a wake up call .

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree that sheperdsword refuted all of my statements. You see it that way because you also believe that James is teaching salvation by faith and works in contradiction to Paul. (Romans 4:2-6) We have already discussed this many times before.

Yes sir.
No reason to start again right now.

James is simply saying we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:24) and not by a bare profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works (James 2:14) which is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

THIS is what James said:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I like to just read the verses and believe them.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*

We are justified by faith.
But not by faith alone.
Ultimately, we are justified by faith and obedience to God.
Obedience includes works/good deeds.
Just as Jesus taught.

Because faith
without works
is dead.

God desires from us a faith that is alive and functioning.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

True. We are saved by God's grace through the faith He instills.

Any good work is due to His leading us afterward to serve in His will and Kingdom.

Jesus did our work on the cross.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes sir.
No reason to start again right now.

THIS is what James said:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I like to just read the verses and believe them.

We are justified by faith.
But not by faith alone.
Ultimately, we are justified by faith and obedience to God.
Obedience includes works/good deeds.
Just as Jesus taught.

Because faith
without works
is dead.

God desires from us a faith that is alive and functioning.

Paul nor james ...
lets sing this song together shall we .
OH mr paul and mr james
NEVER ONCE contradicted one the other . short song but POINT MADE .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes sir.
No reason to start again right now.

THIS is what James said:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I like to just read the verses and believe them.

We are justified by faith.
But not by faith alone.
Ultimately, we are justified by faith and obedience to God.
Obedience includes works/good deeds.
Just as Jesus taught.

Because faith
without works
is dead.

God desires from us a faith that is alive and functioning.

What i say to us all is that doctrine is very very important
For many worship a god that feeds their emotions
and have no idea their god is actually deceiving them and trodding under foot the very Words of GOD
and of CHRIST , that they think they follow .
Doctrine does matter .
what we love does matter .
EITHER we love the truth and thus THE GOD who is TRUTH and INSPIRED the words of truth
OR WE decieving ourselves . This might be perhaps the most hated message
but may the peoples hear and receive it . Its time for a wake up call . Time to get this people back into JUST
and i do mean JUST the bible for to learn for ourselves .

 

[mailmandan]

Yes sir.
No reason to start again right now.

THIS is what James said:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I ALREADY COVERED THAT in post #111.

I like to just read the verses and believe them.

I like to read what verses say in context and in harmony with the rest of scripture. Isolating a pet verse out of context and out of harmony with the rest of scripture leads to false doctrine.

We are justified by faith.
But not by faith alone.

What else is mentioned with faith in Romans 5:1? Hence, faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. There is no single justification of being accounted as righteous by both faith and works.

Ultimately, we are justified by faith plus works.
Just as Jesus taught.

Because faith
without works
is dead.

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24) Faith is the root and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Hence, faith without works is dead.

God desires from us a faith that is alive and functioning.

Of course. We have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)