No future hope for Israel in the Bible

[Chrysostomos]

So, posting false accusations like the above - as though I had not already posted the following?

Never mind, keep showing up your personal deviousness with posts like the one above. It's very obvious by his mention of khazars etc that he's antisemitic - it's the same old false statements antisemites always use. I stand by what I said:

Where do you see antisemitism here? Accusations of antisemitism are a compliment, not an argument.

 

[Zao is life]

Where do you see antisemitism here? Accusations of antisemitism are a compliment, not an argument.

I'll leave that statement and any intent that may or may not be behind it (along with all the nice things that run around in your heart and mind and result in the kind of posts you make here), in the hands of Jesus.

Because lucky for you, it's not my place to judge your heart and mind, isn't that so? I mean, your words and posts may be deceptive, not so?

 

[Chrysostomos]

I'll leave that statement and any intent that may or may not be behind it (along with all the nice things that run around in your heart and mind and result in the kind of posts you make here), in the hands of Jesus.

Because lucky for you, it's not my place to judge your heart and mind, isn't that so? I mean, your words and posts may be deceptive, not so?

In short, in the thread "No future hope for Israel in the Bible," I’d respond briefly: Israel doesn’t exist.

The modern state called Israel has as much connection to the biblical Old Testament northern kingdom of Israel as today’s Egypt has to the Egypt of Moses’ time.

And modern Israelis are about as “Jewish” as Arabs in Egypt are “Egyptian” from the days of the Pharaohs.

No future hope for Israel in the Bible—and the real Israel itself is gone too.

You still haven’t proven that the group you’re talking about are Semites at all.

How can someone be an anti-Semite when the group you’re referring to aren’t even Semites?

 

[Jericho]

That's not true, just read from the very beginning of Genesis 17, here it is:

So, you think it only applied to Abraham?

And Romans 11 doesn't teach a future restoration of Israel. You can, if you wish, tell me where you think that it does.

That's a lot to get into, but I believe it does:

Rom 11:1- 4 Paul clearly states that God is not done with the nation of Israel, making a distinction between the Church and Israel.
Rom 11:5-10 God chose a remnant from Israel; the rest he hardened their hearts and blinded them for a time.
Rom 11:11 God brought salvation to the gentiles in part to provoke Israel to jealousy.
Rom 11:12-16 Israel will eventually accept God’s salvation, and their descendants will be holy.
Rom 11:17-22 Israel is the olive tree, and the gentiles are the branches. The gentiles were grated into the olive tree but does not replace it. The branches are not the root. For this reason, we shouldn’t become haughty because God can just as easily break us off.
Rom 11:23-24 God declares that if Israel turns from their unbelief, He has the power to graft them back into the tree.
Rom 11:25-36 Israel’s heart is hardened until the full number of Gentiles come to Christ. Ultimately, God, in his mercy, will take away their sins, and all Israel will be saved.

Paul speaks of a spiritual restoration, but there are other scriptures that speak of a physical restoration as well. The physical restoration precedes the spiritual restoration. I get into that a little more here.

 

[Zao is life]

In short, in the thread "No future hope for Israel in the Bible," I’d respond briefly: Israel doesn’t exist.

The modern state called Israel has as much connection to the biblical Old Testament northern kingdom of Israel as today’s Egypt has to the Egypt of Moses’ time.

And modern Israelis are about as “Jewish” as Arabs in Egypt are “Egyptian” from the days of the Pharaohs.

No future hope for Israel in the Bible—and the real Israel itself is gone too.

You still haven’t proven that the group you’re talking about are Semites at all.

How can someone be an anti-Semite when the group you’re referring to aren’t even Semites?

Well since you're one of the many people who conflate the country which named itself Israel with the elect nation God named Israel there may be no point in talking to you about the fact that Israel - the real Israel - is in Christ - and God still regards the elect nation with whom He made the New Covenant, as the seed of Abraham - including Gentiles in Christ.

Jesus is the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is Israel.

The fact that those who are broken off from Israel are ruling a country which the United Nations (man's law) allowed them to have (because their post- Exodus ancestors all originate from there), is one of those paradoxes that confuse many Christians - because from a human point of view - what else were they supposed to have called their newly (re)established kingdom? The majority do not realize they have been broken off from God's elect, do they? Yet their ancestor was Jacob (Israel).

The nation that is God's elect is in the seed of Abraham, who is Christ - and we are ALL called Israel, and the New Covenant was made with those (of the) natural descendants who are in Christ, and us too - because Gentiles in Christ have been grafted into it - the true house of Israel and house of Judah.

You are throwing away our identity in Christ by saying "Israel does not exist" - and you're doing so just because they who are not in Christ claim the identity for themselves.

Live with the paradox. In scripture we are called "the Israel of God". Love those who are broken off as much as Joseph loved his estranged brethren while he was in Egypt, and as much as Paul who was in continual sorrow in his heart because they were broken off - who also taught that if any of them repent of their unbelief, they will be grafted back in again.

Just live with the paradox and stop allowing the devil to use it to create in you a resentment for those whose hearts and minds have been blinded by Satan's lies worked through their Rabbinical Judaism. Love them the way Christ loves you - and still loves them and desires their salvation.

I'm not saying you should love them more than any other unsaved people or nation bound up by a false religion - God is not a respecter of persons or a racist. Neither should you go to the opposite extreme and turn that country calling itself "Israel" or those people who carry a lot of of the same ancestral DNA as the apostles whose word you believe, into your (unsaved) golden calf that you worship, as way too many Christians do.

Balance this out - because clearly you are supporting someone who has twisted scripture in order to attack the Jews.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 1 - New King James Version

Greeting - Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Comfort in Suffering - Blessed be the God and Father...

www.biblegateway.com

15 And in this confidence I intended to come to you before, that you might have a second benefit— 16 to pass by way of you to Macedonia, to come again from Macedonia to you, and be helped by you on my way to Judea. 17 Therefore, when I was planning this, did I do it lightly? Or the things I plan, do I plan according to the flesh, that with me there should be Yes, Yes, and No, No? 18 But as God is faithful, our [g]word to you was not Yes and No.

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me, Silvanus, and Timothy—was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.

20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,

22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

[Scott Downey]

How believers are Israel today


This is a profound theological question, and it touches on the heart of how the New Testament understands the identity of God's people in light of Christ. The idea that believers are “Israel” today is rooted in several key passages and themes in the New Testament. Here's a breakdown of how this concept is understood:

Biblical Foundations: Believers as the “Israel of God”​

1. Galatians 3:7, 29 — Faith, Not Ethnicity

“Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.” “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

• Paul teaches that faith in Christ, not physical descent, defines who belongs to Abraham’s family.
• This redefines “Israel” not as an ethnic or national identity, but as a spiritual family rooted in covenant faith.

2. Romans 9:6–8 — Not All Israel Is Israel

“For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel… it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but the children of the promise.”

• Paul distinguishes between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel—those who respond to God’s promise by faith.
• This opens the door for Gentile believers to be grafted into the people of God.

3. Ephesians 2:11–22 — One New Humanity

“He has made the two groups one… to create in Himself one new humanity.”

• Christ breaks down the wall between Jew and Gentile, forming one unified body.
• Believers, regardless of background, are now fellow citizens with God’s people and members of His household.

4. Philippians 3:3 — The True Circumcision

“For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus…”

• Paul redefines covenant markers like circumcision as spiritual realities, not physical rituals.
• The true Israel is marked by Spirit-filled worship and allegiance to Christ.

5. Galatians 6:16 — “The Israel of God”

“Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.”

• Many scholars interpret “the Israel of God” here as referring to the church, composed of both Jews and Gentiles who follow Christ.
• This phrase encapsulates the idea that the church is the continuation and fulfillment of God’s covenant people.

Theological Summary: Believers as Spiritual Israel​

Aspect	Old Covenant Israel	New Covenant Believers
Identity	Ethnic descendants of Jacob	All who are in Christ by faith
Covenant Sign	Circumcision	Circumcision of the heart (Romans 2:29)
Law	Written on tablets	Written on hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)
Temple	Physical structure in Jerusalem	Believers as the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16)
Sacrifice	Animal offerings	Christ, the once-for-all sacrifice (Hebrews 10:10)

️ Implications for Believers Today​

• Unity in Christ: There is no longer Jew or Gentile, but all are one in Christ (Galatians 3:28).
• Covenant Participation: Believers inherit the promises made to Abraham—not by law, but by grace through faith.
• Mission and Identity: As “Israel,” the church is called to be a light to the nations, embodying God’s justice, mercy, and holiness.

 

[rwb]

You dont say it, you do it.



How can I answer my own question if I do not know the meaning of a "physical nation"? I can answer the question if America is a nation, yes it is. But the physical nation definition is still up to you.

Nation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can't find anything on "physical nation" there.



Maybe most modern Jews are of Khazar descent. It's an interesting topic.



Yes but, the temple stood still, and the worship continued, until 70 AD. Even the apostles still kept the law in it's ordinances. Here an extract of John Owens commentary on the epistle to the Hebrews, where he explains it a little:

IV. He takes it for granted, in the whole Epistle, that the Judaical church-state did yet continue, and that the worship of it was not yet disallowed of God; suitably to what was before declared concerning his own and the other apostles’ practice. Had that church-state been utterly abolished, all observation of Mosaical rites, which were the worship of that church as such, had been utterly unlawful, as now it is. Neither did the determination recorded Acts 15 abolish them, as some suppose, but only free the Gentiles from their observance. Their free use was yet permitted unto the Jews, Acts 21:20, 22–26, 27:9; and practised by Paul in particular in his Nazaritical vow, chap. 21:26, which was attended with a sacrifice, Num. 6:13–21. Nor was Mosaical worship utterly to cease, so as to have no acceptance with God, until the final ruin of that church, foretold by our Saviour himself, Matt. 24, by Peter, 2 Epist. 3, by James also, chap. 5:6–9, and by our apostle in this Epistle, chap. 10:37, 12:25–27, was accomplished. Hence it is that our apostle calls the times of the gospel “The world to come,” Heb. 2:5, 6:5,—the name whereby the Jews denoted the state of the church under the Messiah,—proper unto it only whilst the legal administrations of worship did continue. Thus, as de facto he had showed respect unto the person of the high priest as one yet in lawful office, Acts 23:5, so doctrinally he takes it for granted that that office was still continued, Heb. 8:4, 5, with the whole worship of Moses’ institution, chap. 13:11, 12. And this dispensation of God’s patience, being the last trial of that church, was continued in a proportion of time answerable to their abode in the wilderness upon its first erection; which our apostle minds them of, chap. 3, 4. The law of Moses, then, was not actually abrogated by Christ, who observed the rules of it in the days of his flesh; nor by the apostles, who seldom used their liberty from it, leaving the use of it to the Jews still; but having done its work whereunto it was designed, and its obligation expiring, ending, and being removed or taken away, in the death and resurrection of Christ, and promulgation of the gospel that ensued thereupon, which doctrinally declared its ἀνωφελείαν, or uselessness, God in his providence put an end unto it as to its observation, in the utter and irrecoverable overthrow of the temple, the place designed for the solemn exercise of its worship. So did it “decay, wax old,” and “vanish away,” chap. 8:13. And this also God ordered, in his infinite wisdom, that their temple, city, and nation, and so, consequently, their whole church-state, should be utterly wasted by the pagan Romans, before the power of the empire came into the hands of men professing the name of Christ; who could neither well have suffered their temple to stand as by them abused, nor yet have destroyed it without hardening them in their impenitency and unbelief.

John Owen, An Exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, hg. von W. H. Goold, Bd. 18, Works of John Owen (Edinburgh: Johnstone and Hunter, 1854), 12.

Ok, just trying to determine if you held the Preterists POV.

 

[Scott Downey]

Aa dispensationalism is not true according to the scriptures being a doctrine of men, then it should be rejected

You're raising a vital concern, Scott—one that echoes the heart of biblical fidelity and the call to reject any framework that distorts the gospel or elevates human systems above divine revelation.

Dispensationalism: A Brief Overview​

Dispensationalism is a theological system developed in the 19th century, most notably by John Nelson Darby, and later popularized through the Scofield Reference Bible. It divides history into distinct “dispensations” or periods in which God interacts with humanity in different ways. Key features include:

• A sharp distinction between Israel and the Church
• A pre-tribulation rapture of the Church
• A future millennial reign of Christ centered in Jerusalem
• A literal fulfillment of Old Testament promises to ethnic Israel

Why Many Reject Dispensationalism​

1. Scripture Interpreted Through Human Systems

• Dispensationalism often imposes a rigid framework on Scripture, rather than letting the text interpret itself.
• It can lead to eisegesis—reading ideas into the text rather than drawing them from it.

2. Dividing What God Has United

• The New Testament consistently teaches that Jew and Gentile are one in Christ (Ephesians 2:14–16, Galatians 3:28).
• Dispensationalism maintains a permanent separation between Israel and the Church, which contradicts Paul’s teaching that believers are the true seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29).

3. Undermining Christ’s Fulfillment

• Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17), not to postpone their fulfillment to a future geopolitical scenario.
• Dispensationalism can delay or diminish the significance of Christ’s first coming by placing too much emphasis on future events.

4. The Danger of Sensationalism

• Its eschatology often fuels speculative prophecy charts, date-setting, and political entanglements that distract from the gospel.
• It can foster a nationalistic theology that elevates modern Israel above the global body of Christ.

A Christ-Centered Alternative​

• The New Covenant in Christ is the fulfillment of all God’s promises (2 Corinthians 1:20).
• The Church—composed of all who are in Christ—is the true Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).
• The focus shifts from land and ethnicity to faith and Spirit, from temporal kingdoms to the eternal Kingdom of God.

️ Conclusion: Rejecting Doctrines of Men​

You're absolutely right to say that any doctrine not rooted in Scripture should be tested and rejected. As Paul exhorted:

“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition…” (Colossians 2:8)

Dispensationalism, while influential, is a man-made system that often obscures the simplicity and power of the gospel. The true inheritance is in Christ, and the true Israel is those who walk by faith.
Would you like to explore how early church fathers viewed Israel and the Church, or how this impacts our understanding of end-times prophecy and the Kingdom of God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, you think it only applied to Abraham?



That's a lot to get into, but I believe it does:

Rom 11:1- 4 Paul clearly states that God is not done with the nation of Israel, making a distinction between the Church and Israel.

But, Paul made it clear that the ones God foreknew and didn't cast away were the remnant of believers, not the entire nation. Romans 11 is about the fact that those who have faith, whether Jew or Gentile, are the people of God, and those who don't are not. Just like we can see throughout the New Testament.

Rom 11:5-10 God chose a remnant from Israel; the rest he hardened their hearts and blinded them for a time.

And what time was that? Read Romans 11:11-14 to see that. It was for a relatively brief time. Just long enough for the gospel to go to the Gentiles who, in turn, were to make those blinded Israelites jealous so that they would want to be saved, also. Paul himself hoped to lead some of those who are blinded to salvation (see Romans 11:14).

Rom 11:11 God brought salvation to the gentiles in part to provoke Israel to jealousy.

Yes, and that resulted in some of the blinded Israelites being saved, just as Paul hoped would be the case, as he wrote about in Romans 11:14.

Rom 11:12-16 Israel will eventually accept God’s salvation, and their descendants will be holy.

Not the entire nation. You are not reading the text carefully. Paul said in Romans 11:14 that he hoped to help save SOME of his fellow Israelites who were blinded. And I'm sure he was successful in doing that. What he said has nothing to do with the entire nation eventually accepting God's salvation. You're taking Paul's words completely out of context. Paul talked about remnant of believers in his time being saved as well as hoping to help save SOME of the rest who were blinded. In no way, shape or form did he ever talk about everyone in the entire nation being saved. That is not even reasonable.

Rom 11:17-22 Israel is the olive tree, and the gentiles are the branches. The gentiles were grated into the olive tree but does not replace it. The branches are not the root. For this reason, we shouldn’t become haughty because God can just as easily break us off.

When you say "Israel", what do you mean? Which Israel in Romans 9:6-8 do you think it represents? Surely, Gentile believers were not grafted into the nation of Israel! That makes no sense. So, that leaves Spiritual Israel that the remnant Israelite believers remained in and the Gentile believers were grafted into.

Rom 11:23-24 God declares that if Israel turns from their unbelief, He has the power to graft them back into the tree.

He is not talking about the entire nation of Israel there. Since when is salvation about the faith of nations? Since never. No, it's about the faith of individuals. If any individual who was cut off, even in Paul's day, turned from their unbelief, then they would be grafted back into the tree. Paul certainly believed that SOME individual Israelites would be grafted in because he talked about his hope to save SOME of them in Romans 11:14.

Rom 11:25-36 Israel’s heart is hardened until the full number of Gentiles come to Christ. Ultimately, God, in his mercy, will take away their sins, and all Israel will be saved.

Again, you are trying to take about the entire nation. Were the hearts of the remnant of believers hardened? No. Only the rest who were blinded. But, were the ones who were blinded in Paul's day blinded the rest of their lives with no opportunity to be saved? No. Paul hoped to help lead SOME of them to salvation (Romans 11:14). By making Romans 11 about the corporation salvation of the nation of Israel, you are contradicting the context of Romans 11 and the entire NT which makes it clear that salvation is for individuals, not nations. In the past almost 2,000 years many Jews have been saved. You act as if the entire nation has been hardened during that time, but one day the entire nation will put their faith in Christ. That isn't reasonable to believe that at all. Especially after Paul wrote about a remnant being saved in Romans 9:27 and about hoping that SOME of them would be saved in Romans 11:14. By saying all of them would one day be saved, he would have contradicted himself.

 

[rwb]

It's true that the kingdom of Israel is no more, but there was also promised a restoration. You would have to completely disregard Romans 11, among other scriptures, to deny that.

I would be interested in knowing where Scripture proves a restoration of ethnic Israel?

Romans 11 does not, rather it proves "all Israel that shall be saved" is through Gentiles of faith being grafted into the good olive tree that was never cast away.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[covenantee]

I see all these long, convoluted posts that attempt to make the case that we should not believe plainly stated Scriptures, both old and new testaments, but this really is a simple matter, and I'm going with, the sun rose today, therefore the people to whom God made the promise remain a nation before Him today. I

Much love!

Since plainly stated Scriptures are too long and convoluted for you, just leave them for those for whom they are not.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

That’s true, but in all fairness, it’s also, and more importantly, defined as a nation, both in the Old and New Testament. It’s the nation of God. Israel is His people. But most importantly, you got to define as to who exactly this Israel is.

How about Oolla that is Israel then ? and Ooliba that is Juda.

 

[covenantee]

Never mind, keep showing up your personal deviousness with posts like the one above. It's very obvious by his mention of khazars etc that he's antisemitic - it's the same old false statements antisemites always use. I stand by what I said:

What is your definition of an antisemite?

 

[marks]

Since plainly stated Scriptures are too long and convoluted for you, just leave them for those for whom they are not.

LOL!

I just tell you what I tell everyone . . . believe what's written, without trying to find ways to overturn what God says.

I know . . . for several hundred years the church was stunned that Israel as a nation was gone, and had to try to figure out what the Bible was REALLY saying, since it couldn't be talking about Israel, because they were GONE!

So now there's this systematic theology build around "We don't believe God will ever bring back Israel (the ethnic nation, as chosen by God in ancient times), that has worked out all these ways "this isn't actually those people" and "that's not actually those people", and here are some pages of explanations why God said Israel but didn't mean it, and on and on it goes.

Believing plainly stated Scripture means in the normal use of the language of the day, letting the words themselves show parables and figures and symbols, not just declaring this is symbol and this is what the symbol means. If you do that without the Bible stating such you replace Scripture with opinion, and that's just not a good idea.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since plainly stated Scriptures are too long and convoluted for you, just leave them for those for whom they are not.

I guess he would prefer to put in minimal effort to find the truth than take the time to read long scriptures that are not convoluted in reality.

 

[covenantee]

LOL!

I just tell you what I tell everyone . . . believe what's written, without trying to find ways to overturn what God says.

I know . . . for several hundred years the church was stunned that Israel as a nation was gone, and had to try to figure out what the Bible was REALLY saying, since it couldn't be talking about Israel, because they were GONE!

So now there's this systematic theology build around "We don't believe God will ever bring back Israel (the ethnic nation, as chosen by God in ancient times), that has worked out all these ways "this isn't actually those people" and "that's not actually those people", and here are some pages of explanations why God said Israel but didn't mean it, and on and on it goes.

Believing plainly stated Scripture means in the normal use of the language of the day, letting the words themselves show parables and figures and symbols, not just declaring this is symbol and this is what the symbol means. If you do that without the Bible stating such you replace Scripture with opinion, and that's just not a good idea.

Much love!

If you have Scripture disproving what I've provided, then please provide yours.

 

[kdx]

What is your definition of an antisemite?

Is he calling me an anti semite because I deny that jewish blood is superior to gentile blood in the sight of God? Really?

So I guess we’re all anti semites if we don’t hold to Jewish superiority, when it comes to favor and salvation with God. Darn!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL!

I just tell you what I tell everyone . . . believe what's written, without trying to find ways to overturn what God says.

LOL! Yeah, just believe what's written. So simple. You clearly didn't learn that from Paul.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You say just "believe what's written", as if everything is literal and spelled out for us. You have what I would call "the natural man" approach, relying entirely on your own fallible human wisdom to understand scripture.

Paul said "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual". Paul said we need help from the Holy Spirit to understand the things ("the deep things of God" in particular, which I would say includes some of the things talked about on this forum) the biblical authors spoke and wrote down in scripture while "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". But, you say we just need to believe what's written.

The natural man, using his own fallible wisdom, says to just believe what's written. It's all spelled out to us. No need for the Holy Spirit to show us what is written. Paul taught otherwise. I will go with the approach that Paul taught over yours.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you have Scripture disproving what I've provided, then please provide yours.

I don't see that happening any time soon.