No future hope for Israel in the Bible

[Douggg]

This is absurd. No Christian creed contains "we believe that modern Israel is the biblical Israel".

Such statement would be even illogical per se. The modern Israel is obviously the modern Israel, it can not be the biblical Israel. Just logically. Bible was finished 2,000 years ago.

Modern day Israel is the fulfillment of the reuniting part of Ezekiel 37:15-28, the reuniting of the southern nation and northern nation back into one nation again.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

 

[kdx]

Another thing to think about:

Typically, when you ask the Dispensationalist: „Hey, why hasn’t God fulfilled his promises to Israel?“, what will he say? Well, he says that God will at some point in time fulfill all his promises he made to Israel!

But what does Paul say against the seeming objection, that the promises with regard to Israel have failed? He doesn’t point to some distant point in the future, but he simply says that this objection is based on a false understanding of who Israel really is.

„But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.“ (Rom 9, 7-8)

He, instead of pointing to a future time with regard to the promises (as do the people who hold to such a doctrine), simply redefines Israel, or rather defines it aright. I think we, as Christian’s, should argue the same.

 

[Chrysostomos]

God is the highest standard. If we can go "holier" than Jesus, then your view of Jesus is not sufficient.

You’re the one twisting Christ’s teachings to fit your narrative. You’re playing the saint, acting like you’re kinder than God Himself, while dodging the real issue with your fake piety. Stop pretending to be holier than Jesus and address the argument—or do you have nothing but sanctimonious fluff to offer?

But we do not have any Pharisees here. We are not called to emulate these unique situations Jesus was in in Christian forums. We are called to love each other. If even unbelievers are able to have more civilized discussions and higher standards, what does it say about us?

You’re dead wrong. This place is crawling with Pharisees—and worse. I wouldn’t even call this a Christian forum; it’s a Zionist echo chamber masquerading as “Christian” to push a Zionist agenda.

We are called to follow Jesus Christ, to shine light into the world by exposing the children of Satan and the lies spewing from their blasphemous mouths.
Light has no fellowship with darkness (2 Corinthians 6:14).
The “love” you preach isn’t Christ’s teaching—it’s the soft, spineless gospel of Leo Tolstoy, not Jesus.
Christ didn’t coddle deceivers; He called them out.

 

[Scott Downey]

And again
Excellent, Scott. Let’s explore how Romans 9–11 builds a cohesive, non-dispensational understanding of Israel, the Church, and God’s redemptive plan. These chapters form a theological arc, culminating in Romans 11:26’s statement that “all Israel will be saved.” Here's how it unfolds:

Romans 9–11: A Unified Narrative of Mercy and Election​

Romans 9: God’s Sovereign Choice​

Paul begins by expressing deep sorrow for his fellow Israelites who have rejected Christ. He then explains:

• Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6). This introduces the idea of a spiritual Israel—those who are children of the promise, not merely of the flesh.
• He uses examples like Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau to show that God’s election is based on mercy, not lineage or works.
• This challenges the assumption that ethnic descent guarantees covenant blessings.

Non-dispensational insight: Paul redefines Israel around God’s sovereign grace, not ethnicity. The true heirs are those who believe, whether Jew or Gentile.

Romans 10: The Universal Call of the Gospel​

Paul emphasizes that:

• Righteousness comes by faith, not by the Law (Romans 10:4).
• The gospel is for “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord”—Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 10:12–13).
• Israel’s rejection is not total or final, but it is a result of unbelief, not divine abandonment.

Non-dispensational insight: The gospel is the fulfillment of the Law, and the boundary markers of the covenant are now faith and confession, not circumcision or Torah observance.

Romans 11: The Mystery of Mercy​

Paul addresses the question: Has God rejected His people? His answer is emphatic: “By no means!”

• A remnant of believing Jews remains (Romans 11:5).
• Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree, which represents the one people of God (Romans 11:17–24).
• The hardening of part of Israel is temporary, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Romans 11:25).
• Then, “all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26).

What Does “All Israel Will Be Saved” Mean?​

Non-dispensational interpretations:

1. Corporate Salvation of the Elect: “All Israel” refers to the totality of God’s elect, both Jew and Gentile, as one people of God. This fits Paul’s earlier redefinition of Israel in Romans 9:6.
2. Future In-Gathering of Ethnic Jews: Some non-dispensationalists (e.g., Calvin, many Reformed theologians) see this as a future large-scale conversion of ethnic Jews to Christ before the end of the age—not a separate dispensation, but a final act of mercy within the one covenant people.

Either way, the emphasis is on salvation through Christ alone, not a return to the Mosaic covenant or a separate redemptive plan.

️ Early Church Fathers on Romans 11​

The early church largely embraced a unified view of God’s people:

• Justin Martyr (2nd century): Argued that the Church is the “true Israel,” composed of all who follow Christ.
• Irenaeus: Saw the Church as the continuation of Israel, inheriting the promises through Christ.
• Origen: Interpreted “all Israel” spiritually, as the fullness of the Church.

They did not anticipate a restoration of national Israel in a separate dispensation, but rather saw the Church as the fulfillment of Israel’s vocation.

Summary: Romans 9–11 in a Non-Dispensational Lens​

Chapter	Theme	Non-Dispensational Insight
Romans 9	Sovereign election	True Israel = children of promise, not ethnicity
Romans 10	Gospel to all	Faith, not law, defines covenant membership
Romans 11	One olive tree	Jews and Gentiles united in Christ; “all Israel” = elect remnant or future Jewish in-gathering

 

[Scott Downey]

And again, more good stuff
Would you like to explore how this view shapes our understanding of the Kingdom of God, or how it contrasts with modern political Zionism and Christian Zionist theology?


yes

Romans 11:26—“All Israel will be saved”—is best understood, in a non-dispensational framework, as either the full number of elect Jews and Gentiles or a future large-scale turning of ethnic Jews to Christ, but always within the one covenant people of God.

How Romans 11:26 Fits a Non-Dispensational View​

From a non-dispensational perspective, especially within covenant theology or progressive covenantalism, Paul’s phrase “all Israel will be saved” is not about a separate future dispensation for ethnic Israel. Instead, it fits within a unified redemptive narrative:

• One Olive Tree: Paul’s metaphor in Romans 11:17–24 shows that Gentiles are grafted into the same tree as believing Jews. There is no second tree, no parallel covenant. The people of God are one.
• “All Israel” as the Elect: Many non-dispensational interpreters (e.g., John Calvin, Anthony Hoekema) argue that “all Israel” refers to the full number of God’s elect, both Jew and Gentile, who are saved through faith in Christ.
• Future Jewish In-Gathering: Some Reformed theologians (e.g., Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Herman Bavinck) see Romans 11:26 as pointing to a future mass conversion of ethnic Jews, not as a separate plan, but as part of the Church’s final expansion before Christ’s return.

️ Early Church Fathers on “All Israel Will Be Saved”​

The early church fathers generally did not interpret Romans 11 as teaching a future ethnic restoration of Israel in a separate dispensation:

• Justin Martyr (2nd century): Argued that the Church is the “true Israel,” composed of all who follow Christ.
• Irenaeus and Origen: Emphasized the continuity of the Church with Israel, interpreting “all Israel” spiritually as the body of believers.
• Chrysostom: Saw the passage as a warning against Gentile arrogance and a call to humility, not a prophecy of national restoration.

Their consensus was that God’s promises to Israel are fulfilled in Christ and extended to all who believe, not through a future geopolitical fulfillment but through the gospel.

Contrast with Christian Zionism​

Christian Zionism, often rooted in dispensational theology, sees modern Israel’s political state as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy and anticipates a future temple, sacrifices, and a millennial reign from Jerusalem.
Non-dispensational critiques include:

• Christ is the true Temple (John 2:19–21), and His once-for-all sacrifice replaces the old system (Hebrews 10:10).
• The land promises are fulfilled in Christ and expanded to include the whole earth (Romans 4:13).
• The Kingdom of God is not of this world (John 18:36); it is inaugurated in Christ and consummated in the new creation.

Final Thought​

Romans 11 is not about a detour in God’s plan but a mystery of mercy—how God uses both Jewish rejection and Gentile inclusion to bring about the salvation of His people. It’s a call to humility, unity, and awe at God’s redemptive wisdom.

 

[Davy]

These Biblically illiterates that think the nation of Israel today no longer has any relevance in God's Plan are following exactly what the devil wants them to think. They don't know their Bible any more than their fanny.



When God split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, He promised He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake.

1 Kings 11:31-36
31 And he said to Jeroboam, "Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

32 (But he shall have one tribe for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)

33 Because that they have forsaken Me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways, to do that which is right in Mine eyes, and to keep My statutes and My judgments, as did David his father.

34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and My statutes:

35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.

36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David My servant may have a light alway before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there.
KJV

1 Kings 11:39
39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.
KJV


Today's nation state of Israel in the holy land represents that "one tribe" (Judah) God promised to leave at Jerusalem. There has always been a remnant of the tribe of Judah at Jerusalem, even during the Babylon captivity. They represent the "house of Judah", the stick of "Judah" per the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of the two sticks.

The ten scattered tribes of Israel, which made up the northern kingdom of Israel, which were NOT known as Jews, were scattered among the Gentiles never to return to the holy land, and would be the founders of the western Christian nations. These are called the "house of Israel", and made up the majority of the early Christian Church in the western nations of history, Great Britain being the first Christian nation to accept Jesus Christ on a national scale.

The Ezekiel 37 prophecy reveals when Jesus returns, the "two nations", or the two houses of Israel, will be put back together as ONE NATION back in the holy land. That is what the joining of the two sticks prophecy is about. It is for the future at Christ's 2nd coming.

 

[Chrysostomos]

The modern Israel is

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1980229146862322150

 

[HealthyShape]

You’re the one twisting Christ’s teachings to fit your narrative.

And here we go with another attack again. Why "twisting"? Why do you suppose I am doing something evil intentionally?

You’re playing the saint, acting like you’re kinder than God Himself, while dodging the real issue with your fake piety.

And again, one attack after another. I have lost interested in answering you. If you will continue replying to me like this, you will go to ignore. Not interested in this kind of conversation and constant accusations.

 

[Davy]

Modern day Israel is the fulfillment of the reuniting part of Ezekiel 37:15-28, the reuniting of the southern nation and northern nation back into one nation again.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Has not happened yet. You failed to properly read... all of that Ezekiel 37 chapter because it reveals the joining of BOTH houses of Israel back into one nation again, and that means the lost ten tribes that were NOT known as Jews, that were of Joseph's seed represented by Ephraim.

Moreover, Ezekiel 37 shows "one shepherd" will be over them all when that happens, and that Shepherd means Jesus Christ. Also, David is to be their prince when that happens. We don't see any of that happening with the small remnant of Jews in the holy land today. They still only represent the "house of Judah", mainly the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and not... the northern ten tribes of history.

 

[Chrysostomos]

And here we go with another attack again. Why "twisting"? Why do you suppose I am doing something evil intentionally?


And again, one attack after another. I have lost interested in answering you. If you will continue replying to me like this, you will go to ignore. Not interested in this kind of conversation and constant accusations.

You started this by scolding me for exposing the lies of Satan’s children using Jesus’ own words.
Now, when I hit back, you play the victim and threaten to hide behind the “ignore” button.
Why did you even start this conversation if you can’t handle the pushback?
If you step into the ring, take the punches.
I’m not your mom to coddle you and stroke your ego.
Deal with it or don’t start fights you can’t finish.

 

[HealthyShape]

You started this by scolding me for exposing the lies of Satan’s children using Jesus’ own words.
Now, when I hit back, you play the victim and threaten to hide behind the “ignore” button.
Why did you even start this conversation if you can’t handle the pushback?
If you step into the ring, take the punches.
I’m not your mom to coddle you and stroke your ego.
Deal with it or don’t start fights you can’t finish.

Jesus's words were not about Christians. Stop your accusations and stop hiding behind Jesus' words when you are using them on wrong group of people.

Find the 1st century Pharisees and repeat the words of Jesus to them, if you wish. But do not try this on me or here. Do not call me fake, playing to be something etc. You are out of your place.

 

[NotTheRock]

Do you realize that it is you who seems hateful and a bigot, here? And if you call me "Christian" in quotes again, I will report you and all your hateful posts you made here.

A true follower of Christ isn't aligned with those who are of the world against Israel and Jews.

 

[HealthyShape]

A true follower of Christ isn't aligned with those who are of the world against Israel and Jews.

What is this even supposed to mean?

 

[NotTheRock]

If we call others "satanic", "devil's children", "Nazi" and similar, it leads to prejudice, injustice, fanaticism, hatred and even violence.

A proper dialog must stay away from such attacks.

I'm standing up for Israel and its Jews, who continue to be the most persecuted segment of humanity in human history.

How does history view those who have persecuted Israel? You're entirely in the wrong.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Jesus's words were not about Christians. Stop your accusations and stop hiding behind Jesus' words when you are using them on wrong group of people.

Find the 1st century Pharisees and repeat the words of Jesus to them, if you wish. But do not try this on me or here. Do not call me fake, playing to be something etc. You are out of your place.

Who gave you the right to dictate who I can call out and how?
I can call anyone whatever I want.
In this case, I’m using Jesus Christ’s terminology to call things by their true names.
If I see a Pharisee lying like Satan himself, I’ll say it straight—Pharisee, liar, spawn of the devil.
Like it or not, I’ve done it, I’m doing it, and I’ll keep doing it.
Deal with it.

 

[HealthyShape]

I'm standing up for Israel and its Jews, who continue to be the most persecuted segment of humanity in human history.

How does history view those who have persecuted Israel? You're entirely in the wrong.

Don't be selective. Stand up for those who suffer injustice, no matter the label.

 

[NotTheRock]

What is this even supposed to mean?

Those who are "of the world" despise Israel and its Jews. A "true" Christian does NOT join ranks with them to persecute Israel and its Jews.

 

[HealthyShape]

Who gave you the right to dictate who I can call out and how?
I can call anyone whatever I want.

No, you can't.

In this case, I’m using Jesus Christ’s terminology to call things by their true names. If I see a Pharisee lying like Satan himself...

You have no authority to do that. Deal with it.

 

[HealthyShape]

Those who are "of the world" despise Israel and its Jews. A "true" Christian does NOT join ranks with them to persecute Israel and its Jews.

Don´t be vague.

 

[Chrysostomos]

No, you can't.


You have no authority to do that. Deal with it.

Yes, I can.
Like it or not, I’ve done it, I’m doing it, and I’ll keep doing it.
Deal with it.