Matthew 24:30 may have a significant mistranslation

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you so much...that whole reply made me chuckle........the back handed compliment notwithstanding...

After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

True, though it does not tell us when these 500 witnesse saw Him at once; there is the likelyhood that this large group witnessed His ascension. Since He will return on like manner, will only eleven be present or masses in Jerusalem?

The Bible tells us that only the apostles were present at the time of Christ’s ascension.
Acts 1:1-3; 12-13, Luke tells us who were there....

“In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. . . . .Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet. . . . And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.” (ESV)

Luke names those who witnessed his ascension....so does Matt 28:19-20, which was his last “commands” to them.
His apostles were the ones who would carry on his work.....the world at large did not know anything about Christ’s return to heaven....only his apostles witnessed it. He would return in the “same manner” .....the world would not know that he was present, and only his chosen ones would recognize the “sign” he gave them, to indicate that he was already here. (Matt 24:3-14)

Jesus had much critism, rebuke and even curses towards the Pharisees. They did not believe in Him. They were legalistic and thought salvation was merited by trying to keep the Law.
They mixed their traditions with the Law.
True Christians do not do this, because WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW. WE ARE UNDER GRACE.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph. 2:8-9

I believe that “grace” is something seriously misunderstood by many who identify as “Christians”....some even believing that once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation.....Jesus begs to differ....

After outlining what his true disciples would face in this “time of the end” (prophesied by Daniel), he said....

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Matt 24:9-14 ESV)

Please tell us when we have seen this hatred by “all the nations” for those who identify as “Christians”, when it has been the “Christians” themselves who have engendered this hatred by taking sides....in wars...in politics...and in denominationalism....this fractured excuse for Christianity is full of man made doctrines, forced into Scripture by nothing more than suggestion. Yet here you all are, pretending to be one big happy “body of Christ”....where is the unity that God’s spirit promotes? (1 Cor 1:10)...it doesn’t exist!

And where do we see the “great commission” being carried out under persecution from the first century onward...? What were the first Christians hated for? (John 15:18-20) For exposing their religious system and its corrupt leaders as a hypocritical counterfeit.....”blind guides”, leading other blind people to their death. (Matt 23:13-15, 24, 33) History is repeating...

Celebrating any event is not outside of God's Grace. You, a Jehovah Witness, are implying that modern traditional celebrations of birthdays
or holidays are in violation of God's Law. We are under Grace, and in obedience practicing the Law of Love.

And here come the excuses....why do you celebrate these things in the first place? Are they commanded in Christ’s teachings, or in the teachings of the apostles? How many of them are not pagan in origin, and come from a spiritually “unclean” source? Have you never asked why the church chose to keep the pagan celebrations and just call them something else, implying that God has no problem with that?

What did Paul tell us about trying to mix the truth with lies, and sharing with unbelievers?

2 Cor 6:14-18....
“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” (ESV)

Pretty straightforward language there.....so tell me “what sharing” can there be between God’s pure worship and the contaminated practices of pagan worship? What do the words “DO NOT”....mean here?
Every single thing adopted by the church has its roots in what Paul calls, “unclean” practices from a spiritual perspective.....God’s perspective....the only one that counts.

Let the readers judge for themselves....you can justify these things all you want....you have to tell it to God, not just to each other....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus was not reprimanding the Pharisees for celebrating holidays/ feasts, which they had many. They honored God, were thankful and worshipped God during those feasts.
With everyday, whatever day you set aside as special ( and the word holiday is derived from "holy day", which simply means "set apart")

And doesn’t the word “holiday” (holy day) imply something related to worship? All of Christendom’s celebrations are related to pagan ‘holy days’. Even “Sunday” was adopted as the day of worship, originally dedicated to the sun, by the pagan Romans....

Jesus castigated the Pharisees on many occasions for their hypocrisy.....are you not justifying your celebrations...you holy days.....in exactly the same way?

You JW's always have this hidden agenda, sneaking in those jabs against Christendom and trying clever cla destine ways to what, convert us to your JW Org? It won't happen.

Sorry that this made me chuckle.....those sneaky JW’s actually telling people the truth, just to get membership???? Why was Jesus doing the same thing with the Jews? Was he being sneaky too? Exposing their man made doctrines and self aggrandising teachings. (Matt 15:7-9)
Read Matt 23 and see what he thought of them.

“It won’t work”? Don’t look now, but our numbers are increasing significantly for the very reason that people are fed up with all the bickering, and they just want answers to their legitimate questions about everything related to God and his worship. Who can get that from thousands of different churches, all teaching their own views on things?

The jabs are not sneaky or subtle...they are truth....slap you in the face, unadulterated, truth.....you can cry like a baby because someone slapped you, or you can use it as a wake up call. That choice is very individual.
To tell you the truth, growing up in Christendom...I slapped my own face and wanted to wake myself up. All I saw was hypocrisy.

The truth is you fail as much when you knock on doors - scar Ely any fruit in your labor. After kver 100 years you only have 8+million. The Holy Spirit does not grow your church because particular key doctrines about the nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit are wrong. In 1900, there were 500 million Christians and now 2.7 billion --- THAT'S GROWTH. 1/3 will be saved, that is the narrow path not 1/900 as the JW's figure.

This too made me smile.....in case you hadn’t noticed again......
Matt 7:13-14; 21-23....
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. . . . .
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (ESV)

What “lawlessness” is this that these “many” are practicing, seemingly unwittingly? They are breaking the first Commandment, worshipping a god invented by the RCC, almost 400 years after Christ died. Not a single verse in the Bible comes from either Jesus or his Father that states that they are equally “God”. Most of the time the third party is actually missing...not even mentioned. (John 17:3; Rev 3:12; 1 Cor 8:5-6)

How can a Bible truth be established without an unequivocal statement as to its truth? Tell a lie often enough and long enough, and it becomes gospel truth....heresy if you deny it! Who were the real heretics in Jesus’ day? The ones pointing the fingers at Jesus and crying “heresy!”

So....read that scripture carefully.....Jesus’ words....it’s not about the numbers, because God is not interested in quantity, but quality....

Those who were so sure that their majority view put them in good company, will find that the road they are travelling with all those other bickering “Christian ” sects, is a dead end....and, they will be the last to know....

It was nice chatting, much better than a couple years ago - you've learned not to bash us as much.

...what have you learned?

 

[Aunty Jane]

True worshipers acknowledge that Jesus is God, unlike Jehovah's Witnesses.

And I would ask you to provide one Scripture where either God (Jehovah/Yahweh) or his Son, admit to being equal parts of a triune godhead.....just one unequivocal statement will do.
No doctrine can be secured without a stated truth.

And true worshipers would never teach that the unsaved dead will be resurrected and get another chance at salvation, as Jehovah's Witnesses like you teach.

Who said that the “unsaved dead” were unsaved? Not Jesus.
Who did he say would be resurrected?
And, what did the Jews understand a “resurrection” to be? It was not an instantaneous transformation to spirit life, but something that Jews knew was coming in the future.....as Martha said to Jesus, concerning he brother’s death.....

“Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” (ESV)
What was she referring to? A future time when they expected all to return from the grave.

What did Jesus say concerning the resurrection....?
“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (ESV)

You aren’t arguing with JW’s but with Scripture. Jesus said “ALL IN THEIR TOMBS will hear his voice and come out”.

A “resurrection of judgment” is not condemnation, but a trial period where those who died in ignorance will be given the same opportunity as everyone else....to get to know “the only true God and the one he sent, Jesus Christ”. (John 17:3).....how is that not just?

What purpose is served by Christendom’s hell? DoesJesus wake people up from their graves, only to pitch them into flames forever? That is not justice....that is sadism.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why do you say that? Because it says the great city is where "our Lord was crucified"? Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem.

Sure He was. Read Luke 9:31, describing the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah speaking with Him about His approaching death. "Who having appeared in glory, spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfill in Jerusalem."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The text says he was crucified in a “city“.

Are you aware that the book of Revelation contains a lot of symbolism? Babylon is not only referred to as a city but also a woman (harlot). But, it's neither a literal earthly city nor a literal woman.

When it’s not Jerusalem, then what city is it?

I told you. It's the spiritual opposite of the new Jerusalem, which is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9), which is the church. You are acting as if you should read the book of Revelation all literally. That's not a good approach to take for that book.

Was there a city more close than Jerusalem at the place where Jesus has been crucified? Outside the gate, or near the city, are then just more precise indications as to where exactly the crucifixion took place, in comparison with the real city (you know, where the people were living). I wouldn’t make too much of that.

It's not a literal earthly city at all. Babylon represents everything in the world which opposes Christ and His church. Jesus was crucified here in this evil world full of abominations against God in order to bring hope to a world that previously had none. The book of Revelation is about Jesus and His church and the enemies of Jesus and His church. Has nothing to do with earthly Israel or Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And I would ask you to provide one Scripture where either God (Jehovah/Yahweh) or his Son, admit to being equal parts of a triune godhead.....just one unequivocal statement will do.
No doctrine can be secured without a stated truth.

You have been shown many times scriptures which indicate that Jesus is God. Your eyes are closed to the truth.

Who said that the “unsaved dead” were unsaved? Not Jesus.

LOL. If they are "unsaved dead", then they are unsaved. Hello? Everyone who is dead is either saved or unsaved (lost). Very simple. And not all are saved, obviously.

Who did he say would be resurrected?

All who are in the graves. Literally all of the dead, in other words (John 5:28-29).

And, what did the Jews understand a “resurrection” to be? It was not an instantaneous transformation to spirit life, but something that Jews knew was coming in the future.....as Martha said to Jesus, concerning he brother’s death.....

“Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” (ESV)
What was she referring to? A future time when they expected all to return from the grave.

What did Jesus say concerning the resurrection....?
“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (ESV)

You aren’t arguing with JW’s but with Scripture. Jesus said “ALL IN THEIR TOMBS will hear his voice and come out”.

LOL. Hello? Wake up, please. Did I say that not all will be resurrected? No. Jesus was very clear. Literally all of the dead will be resurrected when that coming hour He referenced comes. But, what you fail to acknowledge is that those who are saved will be resurrected unto eternal bodily life and those who are not saved will be resurrected unto judgment (the lake of fire). But, you have them being resurrected and still running around on the earth, which is ridiculous and not taught anywhere in scripture.

A “resurrection of judgment” is not condemnation,

LOL. Yes, it is. You are not honest with scripture at all. As Daniel 12:2, they will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt". If that's not condemnation, I don't know what is.

but a trial period where those who died in ignorance will be given the same opportunity as everyone else....to get to know “the only true God and the one he sent, Jesus Christ”. (John 17:3).....how is that not just?

What purpose is served by Christendom’s hell? DoesJesus wake people up from their graves, only to pitch them into flames forever? That is not justice....that is sadism.

Your references to "Christendom" are hilarious. I'm talking about the truth from the Bible here, regardless of what labels you want to use. Your Jehovah's Witnesses cult has brainwashed you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure He was.

So, John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12, which both say He was crucified outside of Jerusalem, are not in your Bible then?

Read Luke 9:31, describing the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah speaking with Him about His approaching death. "Who having appeared in glory, spake of his outgoing that he was about to fulfill in Jerusalem."

Unless John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 can't be trusted as being true, that verse has to be talking about the vicinity of Jerusalem (near, but not in it). Do you have John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 in your Bible or not?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

And doesn’t the word “holiday” (holy day) imply something related to worship? All of Christendom’s celebrations are related to pagan ‘holy days’. Even “Sunday” was adopted as the day of worship, originally dedicated to the sun, by the pagan Romans....

Jesus castigated the Pharisees on many occasions for their hypocrisy.....are you not justifying your celebrations...you holy days.....in exactly the same way?

Sorry that this made me chuckle.....those sneaky JW’s actually telling people the truth, just to get membership???? Why was Jesus doing the same thing with the Jews? Was he being sneaky too? Exposing their man made doctrines and self aggrandising teachings. (Matt 15:7-9)
Read Matt 23 and see what he thought of them.

“It won’t work”? Don’t look now, but our numbers are increasing significantly for the very reason that people are fed up with all the bickering, and they just want answers to their legitimate questions about everything related to God and his worship. Who can get that from thousands of different churches, all teaching their own views on things?

The jabs are not sneaky or subtle...they are truth....slap you in the face, unadulterated, truth.....you can cry like a baby because someone slapped you, or you can use it as a wake up call. That choice is very individual.
To tell you the truth, growing up in Christendom...I slapped my own face and wanted to wake myself up. All I saw was hypocrisy.


This too made me smile.....in case you hadn’t noticed again......
Matt 7:13-14; 21-23....
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. . . . .
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (ESV)

What “lawlessness” is this that these “many” are practicing, seemingly unwittingly? They are breaking the first Commandment, worshipping a god invented by the RCC, almost 400 years after Christ died. Not a single verse in the Bible comes from either Jesus or his Father that states that they are equally “God”. Most of the time the third party is actually missing...not even mentioned. (John 17:3; Rev 3:12; 1 Cor 8:5-6)

How can a Bible truth be established without an unequivocal statement as to its truth? Tell a lie often enough and long enough, and it becomes gospel truth....heresy if you deny it! Who were the real heretics in Jesus’ day? The ones pointing the fingers at Jesus and crying “heresy!”

So....read that scripture carefully.....Jesus’ words....it’s not about the numbers, because God is not interested in quantity, but quality....

Those who were so sure that their majority view put them in good company, will find that the road they are travelling with all those other bickering “Christian ” sects, is a dead end....and, they will be the last to know....

...what have you learned?

I have a mutual understanding, respect and agreement with half of my family, who are Jehovah Witnesses, not to discuss the Bible and we do well. Don't think we would have such a loving relationship if we were in constant debates. I have had the JW Elders come over and challenge me and they left quite frustrated. Let it be, let it be, let it be ... And I prefer to do the same here online.

 

[MonoBiblical]

I have a mutual understanding, respect and agreement with half of my family, who are Jehovah Witnesses, not to discuss the Bible and we do well. Don't think we would have such a loving relationship if we were in constant debates. I have had the JW Elders come over and challenge me and they left quite frustrated. Let it be, let it be, let it be ... And I prefer to do the same here online.

They don't believe in free speech much. With this, I think the problem is more than the JWs as weak Unitarians. They have a hard time admitting they are wrong, and I don't know about their charity towards fellow mankind. I hate that they are "on my side". I believe they don't even prioritize commandments, since they don't believe in responsible self-defense. Do they circumcise their children anyway.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You have been shown many times scriptures which indicate that Jesus is God. Your eyes are closed to the truth.

So, not one clear verse produced by Jesus or his Father stating the unequivocal fact that they are three gods in one entity, able to talk with one another, be in three different places at the same time, and know things that others don’t know, and even have separate wills to the others…..please explain how that is “one God” because Jesus never did.
If there was one verse, this would be a closed subject, but because there isn’t a single statement, it still rages….centuries old now….and still not settled. Jesus will settle it once and for all….that is a fact.

You do know what “unequivocal” means ….?

Then perhaps explain how Jesus can refer to his Father as “my God” even in heaven….? (Rev 3:12)

LOL. If they are "unsaved dead", then they are unsaved. Hello? Everyone who is dead is either saved or unsaved (lost). Very simple. And not all are saved, obviously.

Hold on, you called them “unsaved” not me. Everyone who is dead is in one of two places according to Scripture……Sheol/hades or Gehenna….those in one of those places will be resurrected…those in the other will not.….so, which is which?

All who are in the graves. Literally all of the dead, in other words (John 5:28-29).

What “graves” are these?….are the unsaved dead in there too? What word is used in Hebrew and Greek for this place and how was it understood by Jesus‘ Jewish listeners?

LOL. Hello? Wake up, please. Did I say that not all will be resurrected? No. Jesus was very clear. Literally all of the dead will be resurrected when that coming hour He referenced comes. But, what you fail to acknowledge is that those who are saved will be resurrected unto eternal bodily life and those who are not saved will be resurrected unto judgment (the lake of fire). But, you have them being resurrected and still running around on the earth, which is ridiculous and not taught anywhere in scripture.

You seem very confident in your assessment here….but to resurrect “all the dead” means that they were all still dead and in their graves…..right? If Jesus calls them out of their graves.….even those in watery graves will come back to life. (Rev 20:13-14) and then death and hades will be thrown into gehenna…..so do you understand the meaning of those terms as Jesus’ audience did? Or are you going by the misinterpretation of Christendom’s churches in their immortal soul doctrine? Where are the dead before Christ resurrects them? Where was Lazarus before Jesus called him out of his tomb? (John 11:11-14)

Then tell me how is God’s justice is served by punishing people who lived and died before Christ came, or who were born into nations where the true God was not known….those who didn’t know God, and were not in a position to know him? Does God punish people for being born in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Look up the word “judgment” and see that it can mean a trial, just like it does in our justice system, loosely based on the Bible. Witnesses are called, and testimonies given to ascertain guilt or innocence.
Who is the judge? It is the one who called them to life. He will judge whether they deserve to continue living, or are sentenced to “the second death”….which is the “lake of fire”.
Why is it called “the second death”?…because it comes after the first…the one inherited from Adam. There is no resurrection from the lake of fire (Gehenna)…..which is not “hell”.

LOL. Yes, it is. You are not honest with scripture at all. As Daniel 12:2, they will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt". If that's not condemnation, I don't know what is.

Since this is a judgment period, some will not pass the judgment, and will forfeit their lives during the thousand year reign of the Kingdom….a time period where all the dead will have a chance to regain the perfection of Adam and his wife before sin entered into them. The condemnation comes after they are raised, based on their life choices after that, not before. Christ has paid the price to redeem them, so they are raised with a clean slate, as it were.

Your references to "Christendom" are hilarious. I'm talking about the truth from the Bible here, regardless of what labels you want to use. Your Jehovah's Witnesses cult has brainwashed you.

Can you tell me what “cult“ brainwashed you, since Christendom (what is accepted by the masses as “Christianity”) has been in existence since Roman Catholicism was a pup…..Have all your own doctrines been a product of that foretold rebellion (apostasy)?

2 Thess 2:1, 3…
“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, Let no one deceive you in any way. . . .For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction”. (ESV)

None of the doctrines that came out of the RCC have their origins in Christ’s teachings….but you have been told that your doctrines are sound, when in actual fact they were manufactured long before you or I were born. The indoctrinated/brainwashed calling their opposers, indoctrinated/brainwashed….goes all the way back to the Inquisition.…which simply mirrored the Pharisees, proving that when satan rules the world, his old tricks still work so well for him, he doesn’t need to change his tactics much.

Paul told us to beware of overconfidence…(1 Cor 10:12) it still applies.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have a mutual understanding, respect and agreement with half of my family, who are Jehovah Witnesses, not to discuss the Bible and we do well. Don't think we would have such a loving relationship if we were in constant debates. I have had the JW Elders come over and challenge me and they left quite frustrated. Let it be, let it be, let it be ... And I prefer to do the same here online.

We will all know one day soon if we have placed our trust in the right people…because all of us are taught, or are influenced by someone. Our choices tell Jehovah who we are, even if we are fooling ourselves….we can’t fool him. We will all be caught in the act of being ourselves…..the one God sees….

I can certainly “let it be”….but at the same time I have an obligation to tell the truth….for the benefit of those reading the exchanges. Our posts can be of benefit to undecided readers. An undefended faith is not worth having.

 

[Aunty Jane]

They don't believe in free speech much. With this, I think the problem is more than the JWs as weak Unitarians. They have a hard time admitting they are wrong, and I don't know about their charity towards fellow mankind. I hate that they are "on my side".

Well, this is certainly an ignorant assessment about my brotherhood, not based on any personal contact I presume, with what you have suggested here…..that is the difference between me and those who oppose JW’s mindlessly. I have been on your side of the fence, but you have never been on my side, nor would you entertain even engaging in civil dialogue to find out if what we believe is biblical.
We have as much free speech as anyone….so, why would you say that?

“A hard time admitting they are wrong”…? Now that’s funny….I have studied the Bible for over 50 years and I challenge anyone to prove that the beliefs I follow are not purely biblical. The doctrines I was raised with were not challenged by me until my early twenties, when I woke up to the fact that the fractured church system was one completely disillusioned entity, situating themselves under one banner, but only clinging unitedly to a few foundational doctrines that originated in Roman Catholicism…they argue pretty much about everything else.

I have no idea what these statement even mean….
“I don't know about their charity towards fellow mankind. I hate that they are "on my side".

Good grief! What is “your side” supposed to mean? And what kind of charity are you speaking about?
please explain….

I believe they don't even prioritize commandments, since they don't believe in responsible self-defense.

Who told you that? And what do you consider responsible self defence….keeping in mind that you are from the USA, which has the highest rate of gun related deaths in the civilized world….who on earth has to arm against their own citizens? There are mass shootings in the US all the time…..That doesn’t make the US a “responsible” nation when it comes to self defense or gun control. IMO.

Do they circumcise their children anyway.

Are you serious? Where is there a requirement in Christianity to circumcise our children?

That was a Jewish law that was done away with. Circumcision is a personal choice, not a requirement.
I can only ask what is the source of such ignorance?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Well, this is certainly an ignorant assessment about my brotherhood, not based on any personal contact I presume, with what you have suggested here…..that is the difference between me and those who oppose JW’s mindlessly. I have been on your side of the fence, but you have never been on my side, nor would you entertain even engaging in civil dialogue to find out if what we believe is biblical.
We have as much free speech as anyone….so, why would you say that?

Perhaps where you live, Australia?

Good grief! What is “your side” supposed to mean? And what kind of charity are you speaking about?
please explain….

You are nontrinitarian, and that is all. Charity towards neighbors, willingness to let your members go to college etc etc.

Who told you that? And what do you consider responsible self defence….keeping in mind that you are from the USA, which has the highest rate of gun related deaths in the civilized world….who on earth has to arm against their own citizens? There are mass shootings in the US all the time…..That doesn’t make the US a “responsible” nation when it comes to self defense or gun control. IMO.

You preach it is better to be defenseless then? The nerve. I don't care about stupid per population statistics. We have immigration, high welfare crime. Trump has said enough is enough.

Are you serious? Where is there a requirement in Christianity to circumcise our children?

It is a good thing to do an infant, but when Jesus was being sent rapidly like a thief, they didn't have time to circumcise adults. And it is also painful without painkillers.

 

[claninja]

Both Matthew 24:30 and Matthew 24:35 relate directly to the second coming of Christ, so why wouldn't the word be used in the same context in each verse? I see no reason why not.


I had never said I believe that, somehow, everyone in the world will see Jesus in the sky over Jerusalem. That obviously makes no sense and is not reasonable. I'm not going to claim I know exactly how it will work, but with Jesus being God, I have no trouble believing that He will have a way of making Himself visible to everyone in the world. You have to allow for the event to have a supernatural aspect to it. Or, for all anyone knows, He could make a trek around the entire world, making Himself visible. Who knows. I just know that His second coming will be a global event since passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13 make that very clear.


Yep. Never said otherwise.


It isn't just that they are found in close proximity, but they are both used in relation to the second coming of Christ. So, to me, that means they must have the same context since they are used to refer to things that are related to the same event.

Sharing the same broader context doesn’t force a word to carry the same meaning. Greek usage depends heavily on the immediate sentence-level semantic clues, not merely the general topic of the passage.

In Matthew 24:35, the contrast between ‘heaven’ and ‘earth’ makes the broader meaning more clear. (Though I tend to think Matthew 24:35 is being used in the same way as Matthew 5:18). Matthew 24:30 lacks any such markers—no ‘heaven and earth,’ no ‘ends of the earth,’ no idioms that broaden ge beyond the regional sense typical of prophetic/apocalyptic discourse.

And I completely reject the “appeal to possibility” fallacy you offered. Speculating about how the whole world might see the event—because Jesus could make Himself visible globally—doesn’t establish the meaning of the word. Possibility isn’t evidence of absolute truth, and logistics don’t necessarily determine lexical definition.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Babylon is not only referred to as a city but also a woman (harlot). But, it's neither a literal earthly city nor a literal woman.

When Revelation's interpreting angel gives us the explanation of what the symbol of the woman represents, we are to go with that definition. Mystery Babylon was defined for us in Rev. 17:18. "And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city which ruleth over the kings of the earth." This was John referring back to his earlier mention of "the great city...where also our Lord was crucified" in Rev. 11, which was most obviously old Jerusalem.

But those "kings of the earth" which the "great city" was then currently ruling over in John's days were not regular monarchs or regents in the usual sense we understand them. These "kings of the earth" were Israel's high priesthood rulers over the land of Israel. Ordinarily they would have been ruling over Israel, but in John's days, the Roman-governed city of Jerusalem was ruling over these high priest "kings of the earth" by the regulations they had put upon them. Rome was then appointing high priests at their own whim, and even the sacred high priests' garments were stored at the Roman garrison of the Fortress of Antonia, to be doled out on the feast days and then returned to Rome's custody afterward instead of being stored at the temple as was the former custom.

Rome-governed Jerusalem had those high priest "kings of the earth" under its thumb in those days, which is why the Jewish leaders cried out, "We have no king but Caesar."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Perhaps where you live, Australia?

We don’t carry weapons and we don’t allow trigger happy idiots to own weapons....we have strict gun control and we like it like that. I do not feel unsafe in my own neighbourhood.

If you imagine that you can use your weapons against your governments, I wonder what other delusions you all suffer? They could snuff you out like a candle. Their weapons would make yours look like water pistols.

We are not to fight our governments, nor for our governments, but to remain completely neutral and not take sides in any political movements, nor take part in military actions that incur bloodguilt. (Isa 1:15)

No one can get rid of the criminal elements, but joining them doesn’t make the problem go away....it just puts you on their level.
We can defend ourselves against personal attacks in whatever way is available to us at the time, but we are not to intentionally do harm to anyone. Vengeance belongs to God...he will repay on our behalf. (Rom 12:17-21)

You are nontrinitarian, and that is all.

There are a few denominations who are non-trinitarian.....who said that that makes us non-Christian?

We hold to all beliefs about Jesus that are clearly stated in Scripture.....that he is what he called himself.....”the Son of God”......we cannot find any clearly stated reference to the three gods of Christendom, in any verse of the Bible.
Perhaps you could provide one? But it has to come from God or his Christ specifically to confirm such a widely held and important doctrine.
If it doesn’t come from the Bible, we won’t accept it. How can you tell me that is wrong?

Charity towards neighbors, willingness to let your members go to college etc etc.

All we do, or refrain from doing, is a personal choice based on clear application of Scripture. To be guided by Bible principles is better that to regret not doing so.

Jehovah’s Witnesses support each other. If all religions did that who would be left to need charity?
God teaches us to be self-sufficient, but when hard times come, the first century Christians supported each other....that is what we do too. And are to help our neighbors when we can, as Jesus instructed us to. The Good Samaritan was an awesome illustration of what a good neighbor is.

And as far as education goes....how could any genuine Christian agree to their young ones being exposed to the spiritual and moral dangers of a college campus? Drugs, alcohol abuse, and immorality are rife in those places....not a suitable environment for any young immature Christian. It’s the devil’s playground.

And an education to provide a skill or trade, can be achieved through apprenticeships and off campus courses. No one has to go to college these days, as so much is available online, and the internet has completely changed the world as far as employment goes. You can become a millionaire by just sitting at a computer desk “influencing” people.....

“The scene of the world is changing”....but not for the better.

You preach it is better to be defenseless then? The nerve. I don't care about stupid per population statistics. We have immigration, high welfare crime. Trump has said enough is enough.

And you really believe that political figures have the power to change a world that Satan rules? (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-7)
Has any human ruler ever been successful in guiding their nation to genuine peace and security? Not just an absence of war, but a genuine sense that peace and security guards everything. There is a reason for why that has never been achieved.....the one thing that God never gave to humankind was the authority to rule themselves.
We are designed to be ruled by God, because power corrupts humans and apparently greed for power corrupted satan too.....Only God is incorruptible.

What is the one thing that destroys all human attempts to bring about good government.....corruption on all levels. No government on earth can eradicate corruption because it is part of human imperfection.
Nowhere is that more evident than in this current system of things....all foretold in Scripture because this is “the time of the end” about which Daniel was inspired to write some 500 years before the birth of Christ.....

No Christian is authorised to take up weapons to kill even their enemies. (Matt 5:43-44; Rom 12:17-21)

It is a good thing to do an infant, but when Jesus was being sent rapidly like a thief, they didn't have time to circumcise adults. And it is also painful without painkillers.

Not sure what to make of that seemingly contradictory statement....circumcision is a personal choice, not mandated for Christians like it was for Jews.

 

[MonoBiblical]

There are a few denominations who are non-trinitarian.....who said that that makes us non-Christian?

Your understanding of law might be lacking. I am not trinitarian either.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your understanding of law might be lacking. I am not trinitarian either.

Then help me understand you previous comment....
“You are nontrinitarian, and that is all.”.....and now you tell me you are ‘non trinitarian’....so please explain...

 

[claninja]

A future generation can be called "this generation" plus the Greek word can also mean "that".

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

this:

G3778
houtos houtoi haute¯ hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
Including the nominative masculine plural (second form), nominative feminine signular (third form), and the nominate feminine plural, (fourth form). From the article G3588 and G846; the he (she or it), that is, this or that (often with the article repeated): - he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

The verse equally can be translated as, "Verily I say unto you, THAT generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Many people use "this generation" as supposed proof Jesus meant the one he lived in and was speaking to but that is faulty since the word equally can mean "that" so we would have "that generation".

Since the generation he lived in and was speaking to did not see the sun and moon go dark, stars fall, the sign of the son of man nor saw the son of man coming, nor the angels gathering the elect which would have included the disciples means without a doubt Jesus was speaking of a future generation.

Additionally, you can talk about a future generation and refer to it as "this generation". Example, "The generation of 3000AD will populate other planets. This generation will be known as the Space Generation."

Equally a past generation can be referred to as "that generation".

Another example. A man points to a red Corvette in his garage, "This car is mine." or "That car is mine." Same thing.

G3778 is a proximal demonstrative pronoun. This specific pronoun refers to something near that was already known or mentioned. It doesn’t necessarily mean something near in space to the speaker like G3592. In other words, “this” generation likely refers to what was previously mentioned or previously proximal/near in context - the generation that would not pass away until all the things of the OD occurred. So, whether it’s “this” or “that” doesn’t really make a difference as long as it’s understood to refer to something near that was already mentioned.

In other words, I agree that The demonstrative ‘this’ in v.34 refers to the generation described in the discourse — the one that sees all the preceding signs — and the grammar alone does not prove that it is literally Jesus’ generation.

However, grammatically, the antecedents to “all these things” in vs 34 are the events of the Olivet discourse, and contextually, this includes the temple destruction. Therefore Jesus’ generation is still the likely subject of “this generation”.



Sources:

1.) “Notice that the English definitions for οὗτος αὕτη τοῦτο and ὅδε ἥδε τόδε are the same: this/these. While they translate similarly in written English, there sometimes can be a subtle distinction between the two. In general (though there are plenty of exceptions):

• οὗτος αὕτη τοῦτο refers generally and unemphatically to what is already known
• ὅδε ἥδε τόδε refers to what is near (this here table), or about to follow”

From: Demonstrative Pronouns – Ancient Greek for Everyone at Duke.

2.)” 159. ἐκεῖνος, that (yonder), is used of something remote; ὅδε, this (here), of something near or present; οὗτος is used in referring to something which has already been mentioned; ὅδε, in referring to something which is about to be mentioned.

Τhus: οὗτος ὁ στρατηγὸς or ὁ στρατηγὸς οὗτος ἀγαθὸς ἦν, this general (one already mentioned) was brave; ἔλεξε τάδε, he said this, i.e. he spoke as follows; ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ κώμῃ θύσομεν, we will offer sacrifice in that village (yonder).”

From: LESSON XVII: Demonstrative Pronouns

 

[3 Resurrections]

Unless John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 can't be trusted as being true, that verse has to be talking about the vicinity of Jerusalem (near, but not in it). Do you have John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 in your Bible or not?

You are attempting to deny that the Rev. 11:8 verse was speaking about Jerusalem when it mentions "the great city...where also our Lord was crucified". Jerusalem was where Christ suffered and then died. Personally, I believe His cross was positioned on the crest of the Mount of Olives, facing the eastern gate of Jerusalem, which John referred to as "the great city " (which "that great city" also referred to Mystery Babylon in Rev. 17:18).

The translation I gave you about the Mount of Transfiguration had Christ's death taking place "IN Jerusalem". Other translations say "AT Jerusalem". But the "great city" in question is still Old Jerusalem, regardless.

So, the deduction is "the great city" where Christ was crucified = Jerusalem = "that great city" = Mystery Babylon.