How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[Lambano]

From my perspective, the Trinity doctrine of three named persons does not begin until the birth (or conception) of God the Son.

Take a look at 2 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15-16. As Ehrman (and God’sGrace) said, the Chuch has always believed in a pre-existent Christ who was instrumental in Creation. This is one reason I have to take it seriously. ( Even if it doesn’t make sense.)

 

[Grailhunter]

Take a look at 2 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15-16. As Ehrman (and God’sGrace) said, the Chuch has always believed in a pre-existent Christ who was instrumental in Creation. This is one reason I have to take it seriously. ( Even if it doesn’t make sense.)

Pardon me.....this is a good point and a legitimate debate.
To say that the Church has always believed in a pre-existent Christ who was instrumental in Creation.
....is not entirely accurate. As pastors know harmonious beliefs even in a Church building is rare much less in denominations. More accurate to say The belief of a pre-existent Christ who was instrumental in Creation has always existed in Christianity….But then and now, not all agree.

In the Old Testament Yahweh by name a singular name says He is the only God and there is no other like Him and that He created everything....several times in the Old Testament. And at times Yahweh refers to Himself as the only Redeemer and or Savior.

The New Testament kind of re-writes history saying Yeshua was pre-existing and created things. And uses a 6th century BC Greek term and belief and redefined it to mean the Logos was a manifestation of the Word of God.

If Yeshua was pre-existing how can He be the Son of Yahweh? You can not find a God in the Old Testament Identified as the "Son of God"

I acknowledge that these are all legitimate scriptures….but….in apparent contradiction. If there is an answer to this, it is not in scriptures and I am not going to do a tap dance and try to explain any of them away.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Now of course Yeshua is a God and Yeshua identifies Yahweh as His God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isaiah 43:11
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.

1 Corinthians 8:6
Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

 

[Lambano]

To say that the Church has always believed in a pre-existent Christ who was instrumental in Creation.
....is not entirely accurate. As pastors know harmonious beliefs even in a Church building is rare much less in denominations. More accurate to say The belief of a pre-existent Christ who was instrumental in Creation has always existed in Christianity….But then and now, not all agree.

Fair enough.

 

[Lambano]

I acknowledge that these are all legitimate scriptures….but….in apparent contradiction. If there is an answer to this, it is not in scriptures and I am not going to do a tap dance and try to explain any of them away.

Oooo, you’re going to get letters….

 

[Hiddenthings]

I was leaving the obvious to you.

Wow. You turn the obvious into a Bible trivia quiz? Never mind. I'm sure you have a nice neatly packaged response that pretends the devil referred to in that text is a figment of everyone's imagination, that the devil referred to in Revelation 12 is a Chinese astronaut, and the one in the wilderness during Jesus temptation was a rock lizard and Jesus took Himself to the pinnacle of the temple and tried to tempt Himself into creating bread out of rocks. In other words Jesus was hallucinating because of the fasting.

It seems once again the obvious escapes you, Brakelite. You’re unwilling to be led into the Word, and unless the truth is force-fed, you simply will not receive it

6 humans and 1 obedient angel.

• Cain (v.11)
• Balaam (v.11)
• Korah (v.11)
• Enoch – “the seventh from Adam” (v.14)
• Adam (implied because Enoch is identified as seventh from him)
• Michael the Archangel (v.9)
• Moses – alluded to in the dispute over his body (v.9)

There are two lines of evidence showing that the ‘devil’ in this passage refers to a human, not a superhuman being. Jude and 2 Peter are so closely related that Jude 8–9 can be understood as an expansion of 2 Peter 2:10–12. Since Peter’s description is clearly about human individuals, the parallel statements in Jude must likewise refer to humans.

Brakelite, it’s quite a struggle, isn’t it? Trying to force a context to fit your paradigm, and then searching in vain for anything meaningful that identifies the creature you insist is there.

I know the correct interpretation, and it certainly isn’t about a fallen angel wanting a dead corpse lol.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Rejecting the true meaning of the chapter? No-one is denying that Ezekiel is writing to a literal king. What you are denying is the power and spiritual breadth and nature of God's word in its ability to address numerous people and apply itself equally powerfully to different times and contexts yet remaining true to each.
Take for example Jesus's address to the disciples in Matthew 24. While he was speaking in the immediate context of the soon destruction of Jerusalem, He was also speaking directly to events ushering in His second coming in the near future.
Take for example the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3. While these letters were real literal counsels to literal local churches, they apply equally and powerfully to different prophetic time periods in church history.
Ezekiel was writing under the inspiration of the holy Spirit of God, Who was not revealing truth solely about a random king of Tyre who no doubt deserved the rebuke, but was revealing to all of God's people who in the future would read these words, and discern that as with many prophetic words, they had immediate literal application, but also applied to other entities, times, contexts and events in the future. To deny that reality is both short sighted and narrow minded.

Really, Brakelite? You would resort to special pleading just to force your fictional story onto a lament that was clearly addressed to the king?

Show me anywhere in the NT where Ezekiel 28 is quoted in relation to your fallen angel? Just one reference? How about anything even remotely close? Can you do that?

The prophecy was given, and it was fulfilled, just like the chapter before it concerning the city of Tyre. And for the record, Ezek 27 has nothing to do with your imagined judgment on the what you call the underworld!

You know what’s ironic, Brakelite? The truth has been taught to you all along, if only you would pay attention!

“Page 536” of your Seventh-day Adventists Answers & Questions on Doctrine

THE WICKED WILL BE CUT OFF. This thought is emphasized repeatedly, especially in the Old Testament. The psalmist, looking forward to the time when sin would be abolished, declares, "Evildoers shall be cut off" (Ps. 37:9); and again, "The wicked are cut off" (verse 34). The words "cut off" are, in the main, rendered from the Hebrew word karath. This is a strong word, and is several times translated "destroy," as in Ezekiel 28:16.

Ezekiel 28:16 "In the abundance of your (King) trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned (only humans can sin Romans 6:23); so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I have destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

He did become wicked though but did not start that way! - only humans can become evil Brakelite! Angels possess God's Divine Nature and therefore are Pure Holy Beings who always do His Pleasure.

The Context of the chapter is that Tyre held a privileged position in its relationship with Israel. David and Hiram maintained close ties (2 Sam. 5:11; 1 Kings 5:1, 6–7, 10), and Hiram and Solomon formed an alliance in which Hiram supplied materials for the construction of the temple (1 Kings 5:12, 17–18). The language of Ezekiel 28:13–18 draws on Israelite worship imagery and is used symbolically to describe the relationship between Israel and Tyre, implicitly highlighting the divine favor that rested on Tyre due to its association with Israel.

The King lost God's favor and received His Wrath.

Will future Kings receive the same just judgements as Nebuchadnezzar in Isaiah 14 and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28?

Yes!

And before you get too carried away with the “guardian cherub” idea, cherubim were made of beaten gold and placed at either end of the mercy seat (Exod. 37:7–9), their wings overshadowing it as a single piece (Exod. 25:19–20). Though the Hebrew is difficult to translate, following the A.V., Tyre, as a major mercantile power, could be seen as privileged to “spread its wings” over Israel. It was the abuse of this exalted position that led to Tyre’s downfall (Ezek. 28:4–5).

Don't pollute God's beautiful imagery with your mythological nonsense!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I think it may be more correct to say that Christianity has always attributed some form of deity to Christ, but it may have started out as more a Subordinationist divinity rather than co-equality with the Father. That's what I think I see in the writings of Paul. I would have to study the writings of the Western Early Church Fathers to see how it evolved. It also doesn't help that records of Jewish-Christian sects such as the Ebionites have not survived except when quoted by the ECFs.

It concerns some that the Didache is silent on the deity of Christ or trinitarian formula for that matter. I think you use of the word "evolve" requires more consideration.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it may be more correct to say that Christianity has always attributed some form of deity to Christ, but it may have started out as more a Subordinationist divinity rather than co-equality with the Father.

As far as I can determine,,,it has been co-equal with the Father.
How could it be more co-equal than stating that Jesus is God?

That's what I think I see in the writings of Paul. I would have to study the writings of the Western Early Church Fathers to see how it evolved.

I found a lot on the ECFs and posted yesterday.
Will see if I could find my post or the source.

It also doesn't help that records of Jewish-Christian sects such as the Ebionites have not survived except when quoted by the ECFs.

There are early documents that we know about ONLY by the writings of other persons that mention them.
Can't think of any off-hand...but this is accepted by Biblical Historians. (if the document is legitimate).

 

[GodsGrace]

@Lambano


Looking for my post is taking too long.
Here is the source -which is better anyway since I didn't post all of it.

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Lambano


Looking for my post is taking too long.
Here is the source -which is better anyway since I didn't post all of it.

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

It didn't take long did it Grace?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@GodsGrace @JohnDB

1 John 2:18 "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."

Acts 20:30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

The question is this: Has the Truth endured throughout this long period we now live in, or did they succeed in leading the original Gospel into apostasy? The severe warnings suggest otherwise; if the Truth were still accessible, it would likely be found not among the masses, but within a relatively small number of people.

I think history will show that the reason given in Acts 20:30 could not have been mistaken by those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[GodsGrace]

It didn't take long did it Grace?

Thank You Professor Google !!
You make it soooo easy!!

 

[Jack]

"How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?"

I find it much more interesting that the Bible absolutely proves Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the ONE God of the Bible.

From the CYB Statement of Faith: "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)"

 

[Hiddenthings]

Thank You Professor Google !!
You make it soooo easy!!

I’ve never been called a professor before, thank you!

Yes, understanding the truth is not difficult when you remove all the mumbo-jumbo of the dogma from mind and see with clarity the original Gospel.

I thought the term 'mumbo-jumbo' sounded rather professorial of me, don’t you think?

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace @JohnDB

1 John 2:18 "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."

When is the last hour?
When John wrote that....it was believed to be the "last hour" and yet we're still here.

Acts 20:30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

Yes sir.
This is why the early church fought so hard to keep heresy out of the church.

THEY LEFT US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US...
1 John 2:19

You might know that the above is speaking about gnostics...
they were already infiltrating the church while John was still alive.
It's history...you could look it up..or you might already know this.

Most Christians quote it out of context.

The question is this: Has the Truth endured throughout this long period we now live in, or did they succeed in leading the original Gospel into apostasy?

Who is THEY?

The severe warnings suggest otherwise; if the Truth were still accessible, it would likely be found not among the masses, but within a relatively small number of people.

The TRUTH Hidden...is what the early church taught....
Not these modern teachings from 200 years ago that were invented by MEN.

I think history will show that the reason given in Acts 20:30 could not have been mistaken by those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Acts 20:28-30
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.


I love the NT....you just keep reading, or you read a few verses before,,,,and every verse explains itself.

You posted Acts 20:30
But go back to verse 28:
BE ON GUARD FOR THE FLOCK among which the HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE YOU OVERSEERS TO SHEPHERD THE CHURCH OF GOD which He purchased with His own blood.

As I've stated many times....
The EARLY CHURCH is our overseer.
Those of the early church are our overseers...
THEY are to shephert the church which Jesus purchased.
We are the flock that is to be guarded.

NOT those of 200 years ago that are teaching heresy.
THESE are those that have arisen,,,speaking perverse things...drawing away disciples.

 

[Jack]

This is "the last hour".

The signs are piling up fast.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’ve never been called a professor before, thank you!

Hey!
I didn't mean you!!

But you are a very smart and intelligent guy.

Yes, understanding the truth is not difficult when you remove all the mumbo-jumbo of the dogma from mind and see with clarity the original Gospel.

WHAT IS THE TRUTH??

I thought the term 'mumbo-jumbo' sounded rather professorial of me, don’t you think?

Yes. Frank Turek, Wes Huff, John Lennox and Bill Craig use that term all the time!!
LOL

 

[Hiddenthings]

Acts 20:28-30
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

It's odd how someone can make the claim like yours and not carefully read what is being taught.

“Not sparing the flock” such teachers today prioritizing their own status and insisting that their teachings be accepted.

The false gospel has fueled a proliferation of prosperity preachers, and the world is now overrun with them.

The Master will settle this when he comes - all will be revealed and providing you are teachable your correction will come.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's odd how someone can make the claim like yours and not carefully read what is being taught.

I read it carefully.

“Not sparing the flock” such teachers today prioritizing their own status and insisting that their teachings be accepted.

I am speaking EXACTLY about the teachers of today.
So do you agree with me that the early theologians are the ones teaching correct Christianity?

The false gospel has fueled a proliferation of prosperity preachers, and the world is now overrun with them.

Couldn't agree more.
But there are other heresies too.

The Master will settle this when he comes - all will be revealed and providing you are teachable your correction will come.

What do I require teaching about?

And could you reply to my questions on no. 1415?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Couldn't agree more.
But there are other heresies too.

That the false gospel has fueled a proliferation of prosperity preachers, and the world is now overrun with them.

You realize they hold the same doctrinal errors as you?