Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Davidpt]

Correct.


I believe you are confusing the day of Gods wrath which is the 1st six trumpets of the 7th seal with the DOTL which is the 7th trumpet.

The day of wrath lasts one year. The DOTL occurs in one day

This is bad logic. The 1st trumpet occurs in the 7th seal.......which is after the 6th seal. No problems here.

I think you are missing the fact that the 5th seal is the Great Tribulation.


No. Revelation 6:17, is the day of wrath which occur in the 7th seal. The verses you are quoting in Revelation 11 occur at the end of wrath.

Trumpet 1 occurs in the 7th seal. And the 5th seal in no way involves the 6th trumpet. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.............tribulation is not wrath.




The seals are in order. The 5th seal is the great tribulation. It is over when Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins. The trumpets of wrath are in order, 1 thru 7.


Of course, trumpet one comes before 6 and 7.


That's just it. Trumpet 6 and 7 do not correlate with seal 5 and 6.

The 1st four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The 5th seal is the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The 6th seal occurs immediately after the great tribulation. Jesus comes for the second harvest and then the 7th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The trumpets happen in order in the 7th seal wrath of God. Everything fits perfectly in order. There is no need to change the order of anything.

For example. Obviously, the 6th seal in Revelation 6 is referring to Matthew 24:29, for one. You would have us believe that that is where all 6 trumpets fit? After great tribulation and before the coming meant in verse 30?

IOW, like such.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(meaning after Matthew 24:21, thus after great tribulation) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven(meaning the 6th seal, Revelation 6), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Followed by the 6 trumpets. Where the 6 trumpets are then followed by the coming in verse 30.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you not even realize that the 6 trumpets are involving at least 42 months, if not longer?

For example

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


You would have us believe that this 1260 days in question fit in Matthew 24 during verse 29 after the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-26?

The 42 month reign of the beast has to fit somewhere in Matthew 24 as well. Where do you have that fitting? Obviously, the 42 month reign of the beast has to fit the same era involving the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days.

If anyone is all over the place here, thus rearranging everything, it is not me, it is you. Unlike you, I'm using the timeline of events in Matthew 24 to determine where the 6 trumpets logically fit, in relation to the seals, in Revelation. For example. The 6th trumpet does not fit after Matthew 24:29, that verse involving the 6th seal. it fits before Matthew 24:29 is meaning. Otherwise we have to place the 1260 days the 2W prophesy, and the 42 months the beast reigns, during Matthew 24:29 and prior to Matthew 24:30. Thus a gap of at least 3.5 years or maybe even 7 years, between verse 29 and the coming in verse 30.

Plus, it is absurd that the 42 month reign of the beast fits during/after verse 29 and prior to verse 30, rather than during Matthew 24:15-26 instead. No way can the 42 month reign of the beast not involve the 6th trumpet. Yet you have the 6th trumpet between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24. The fact you insist the 6 trumpets follow the 6 seals. Except we already know by comparing Matthew 24:29 with Revelation 6, verse 29 is involving the 6th seal.

 

[Davy]

For example. Obviously, the 6th seal in Revelation 6 is referring to Matthew 24:29, for one. You would have us believe that that is where all 6 trumpets fit? After great tribulation and before the coming meant in verse 30?

IOW, like such.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(meaning after Matthew 24:21, thus after great tribulation) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven(meaning the 6th seal, Revelation 6), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Followed by the 6 trumpets. Where the 6 trumpets are then followed by the coming in verse 30.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you not even realize that the 6 trumpets are involving at least 42 months, if not longer?

For example

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


You would have us believe that this 1260 days in question fit in Matthew 24 during verse 29 after the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-26?

The 42 month reign of the beast has to fit somewhere in Matthew 24 as well. Where do you have that fitting? Obviously, the 42 month reign of the beast has to fit the same era involving the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days.

If anyone is all over the place here, thus rearranging everything, it is not me, it you. Unlike you, I'm using the timeline of events in Matthew 24 to determine where the 6 trumpets logically fit, in relation to the seals, in Revelation.

Yet, the Matthew 24:29-31 verses are ALL... about the SAME timing of Christ's 2nd coming on the LAST DAY of this world. Verse 29 is not spread out into 42 months and 6 trumpets like you appear to be suggesting. When Matt.24:29 says immediately AFTER the tribulation, that means the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe with the day of Jesus' return.

The 6th Seal of Rev.6 actually is describing two periods. The first period of Rev.6:12-13 is about the idea of the "untimely figs", pointing to Satan's host coming first with the false-Messiah. The "untimely figs" represent the winter fig in Jerusalem, a fig that grows early in the winter and falls off in the spring. But recall that the symbolic harvest time by Lord Jesus is summer. Thus the "untimely figs" represents the coming of the 1st supernatural Messiah, which will be an imposter.

Then with Rev.6:14-17, that is about the event of Christ's 2nd coming.

 

[Davidpt]

Yet, the Matthew 24:29-31 verses are ALL... about the SAME timing of Christ's 2nd coming on the LAST DAY of this world. Verse 29 is not spread out into 42 months and 6 trumpets like you appear to be suggesting. When Matt.24:29 says immediately AFTER the tribulation, that means the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe with the day of Jesus' return.

The 6th Seal of Rev.6 actually is describing two periods. The first period of Rev.6:12-13 is about the idea of the "untimely figs", pointing to Satan's host coming first with the false-Messiah. The "untimely figs" represent the winter fig in Jerusalem, a fig that grows early in the winter and falls off in the spring. But recall that the symbolic harvest time by Lord Jesus is summer. Thus the "untimely figs" represents the coming of the 1st supernatural Messiah, which will be an imposter.

Then with Rev.6:14-17, that is about the event of Christ's 2nd coming.

What I am suggesting is what @The Light view is suggesting about Matthew 24. He insists I am rearranging things in Revelation by having the 6 trumpets taking place during the 6 seals, rather than following the 6 seals. If he instead is correct that the 6 trumpets follow the 6 seals, this would have to mean all 6 trumpets fit between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24, which is absurd. Therefore, what I am doing in the post of mine you are addressing, is attempting to debunk his view of the 6 trumpets in relation to the 6 seals.

 

[The Light]

For example. Obviously, the 6th seal in Revelation 6 is referring to Matthew 24:29, for one.

Correct.

You would have us believe that that is where all 6 trumpets fit? After great tribulation and before the coming meant in verse 30?

No. The 6 trumpets are in the 7th seal. The 7th seal does not take place in Matthew 24. Matthew 24:29-31 occurs at the 6th seal, which is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and remain there during the one-year wrath of God. Then we return with the armies of heaven at Armageddon.

IOW, like such.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(meaning after Matthew 24:21, thus after great tribulation) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven(meaning the 6th seal, Revelation 6), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Followed by the 6 trumpets.

Exactly.

Where the 6 trumpets are then followed by the coming in verse 30. 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you not even realize that the 6 trumpets are involving at least 42 months, if not longer?

This is not correct. The 6 trumpets of the 7th seal last for one year, which is 12 months. Then the Day of the Lord occurs at the 7th trumpet.

For example

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Part of the time that the two witnesses are on earth occurs during the great tribulation. The two witnesses remain on the earth after the great tribulation which is over at the 6th seal. They are on earth almost the time that the 7th trumpet sounds which is the Day of the Lord.

You would have us believe that this 1260 days in question fit in Matthew 24 during verse 29 after the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-26?

Nope. See above.

The 42 month reign of the beast has to fit somewhere in Matthew 24 as well. Where do you have that fitting?

No. The beast is still on the earth during the one year wrath of God. That's 12 months. So the beast will be in power for 30 months in Matthew 24.

Obviously, the 42 month reign of the beast has to fit the same era involving the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days.

You are correct (within a few days that the 2 witnesses are killed.)

If anyone is all over the place here, thus rearranging everything, it is not me, it is you. Unlike you, I'm using the timeline of events in Matthew 24 to determine where the 6 trumpets logically fit, in relation to the seals,

What you are missing is that the 6 trumpets are not in Matthew 24. Matthew 24 ends with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal (Matthew 24:29-31)

in Revelation. For example. The 6th trumpet does not fit after Matthew 24:29, that verse involving the 6th seal. it fits before Matthew 24:29 is meaning.

This is not correct. The 6th trumpet is in the 7th seal.......part of the one year wrath of God.

Otherwise we have to place the 1260 days the 2W prophesy, and the 42 months the beast reigns, during Matthew 24:29 and prior to Matthew 24:30. Thus a gap of at least 3.5 years or maybe even 7 years, between verse 29 and the coming in verse 30.

Plus, it is absurd that the 42 month reign of the beast fits during/after verse 29 and prior to verse 30, rather than during Matthew 24:15-26 instead.

12 months of the beast's reign occurs in the 7th seal. 30 months of the beasts reign occurs in Matthew 24.

No way can the 42 month reign of the beast not involve the 6th trumpet.

Correct. The beast will reign during the one year wrath of God which is the 1st 6 trumpets.

Yet you have the 6th trumpet between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24.

Absolutely not. Verses 29,30 and 31 in Mathew occur at the same timeframe.......one after another.

You are putting the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 at the end of the trumpets.........at the end of the 7th seal. But these events occur at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

The fact you insist the 6 trumpets follow the 6 seals. Except we already know by comparing Matthew 24:29 with Revelation 6, verse 29 is involving the 6th seal.

I'm not following you here.

Matthew 24:29, 30 and 31 occur at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Jesus returns for a harvest.............seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the one year wrath of God begins.

 

[The Light]

What I am suggesting is what @The Light view is suggesting about Matthew 24. He insists I am rearranging things in Revelation by having the 6 trumpets taking place during the 6 seals, rather than following the 6 seals.

Yes. It is obvious that the 6th trumpets are in the 7th seal and do not take place in the 1st six seals.

If he instead is correct that the 6 trumpets follow the 6 seals, this would have to mean all 6 trumpets fit between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24, which is absurd.

Your error is not understanding that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal and not at the end of the trumpets.

When He comes at the end of the trumpets, it is for Armageddon. When He comes in Matthew 24......at the 6th seal, it is for a harvest.

Everything is in order. The seals happen in order. The trumpets happen in order.........in the 7th seal.

Therefore, what I am doing in the post of mine you are addressing, is attempting to debunk his view of the 6 trumpets in relation to the 6 seals.

The 6 trumpets happen after the 6th seal..........in the 7th seal.

 

[Davy]

What I am suggesting is what @The Light view is suggesting about Matthew 24. He insists I am rearranging things in Revelation by having the 6 trumpets taking place during the 6 seals, rather than following the 6 seals. If he instead is correct that the 6 trumpets follow the 6 seals, this would have to mean all 6 trumpets fit between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24, which is absurd. Therefore, what I am doing in the post of mine you are addressing, is attempting to debunk his view of the 6 trumpets in relation to the 6 seals.

I'm sorry, but you're gonna' think I'm confused about what you are saying, however... here goes.

1. the signs of the end leading up to Jesus' future return that He gave in His Olivet discourse, are only 7 SIGNS (Matt.24; Mark 13).
2. The 7 SIGNS in Christ's Olivet discourse parallel the Seals of Revelation 6.
3. The Book of Revelation divides those same 7 SIGNS into 21 events. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are just those 7 SIGNS in Christ's Olivet discourse.
4. this means the SEALS, TRUMPETS, and VIALS have parallel timings.
5. not all the visions Apostle John were given were written down in the proper chronological order as to when they happen.

For example...

Revelation 6:14-17 with the latter part of the 6th SEAL, is the same event timing as the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial.

6th SEAL:
Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

7th TRUMPET:
Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

7th VIAL:
Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

The 6th Seal number doesn't seem to fit, but the type of events do. So what's up with that, because the final 7th Seal isn't mentioned until Revelation 8. And the Revelation 7 Chapter that follows Chapter 6 is about God's servants being sealed in prep for the "great tribulation" - (meaning, the sealing of God's servants with God's seal in Rev.7 before the four winds blow is about the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing in Rev.9, which means the time just prior to Christ's coming, which means "great tribulation" time).

Nevertheless, it's the 'events' we are to recognize and follow, and not get wrapped up in strictly trying to follow sequential numbers.

The 1st Vial of Rev.16:2 we know is "great tribulation" timing when God's "two witnesses" will prophesy against the beast for 1260 days, and causing the plagues.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet, the Matthew 24:29-31 verses are ALL... about the SAME timing of Christ's 2nd coming on the LAST DAY of this world. Verse 29 is not spread out into 42 months and 6 trumpets like you appear to be suggesting.

LOL. He was talking about what someone else was apparently suggesting. You have the worst reading comprehension skills I've ever seen.

 

[marks]

Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit.

You should quit overgeneralizing the beliefs of others. Just like I told someone else moments ago, I've been in pre-trib circles for decades, and this is not "what pre-tribbers believe".

So if you want to exhort someone to pay attention to details, and not twist things, look to yourself, that you not do this to others.

I can't say how many posts I've read that start along the lines of "Pretribbers believe such and such" when they don't, or it's not a common POV. It's yet another straw man.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

You should quit overgeneralizing the beliefs of others. Just like I told someone else moments ago, I've been in pre-trib circles for decades, and this is not "what pre-tribbers believe".

So if you want to exhort someone to pay attention to details, and not twist things, look to yourself, that you not do this to others.

I can't say how many posts I've read that start along the lines of "Pretribbers believe such and such" when they don't, or it's not a common POV. It's yet another straw man.

Much love!

By saying that members are in error when they post what they believe Pre-tribbers and Preterists believe without providing any text to explain what it is that the Pre-tribbers' and preterist's believe is not progressing the discussion at all.

If you are not prepared to "die" by taking up your cross to follow Jesus, by stating clearly what you believe with respect to your particular stance, then it is obvious that you do not believe in it at all.

What I am hearing from you is that I am or some other person is wrong without any justification.

Your strawman is simply that I am/thay are wrong, and no further discussion is required on your part to present the facts to justify your strawman claim.

 

[marks]

What I am hearing from you is that I am wrong without any justification.

I wasn't replying to you.

 

[Jay Ross]

I wasn't replying to you.

Marks, I have gone back and edited the portion that you quote in your response. By saying that you were not replying to me, you have avoided the need to justify why they or I am wrong in our understanding.

Your response was just pure avoidance of providing the fact to justify your stance with your strawman argument of simply you are wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You should quit overgeneralizing the beliefs of others. Just like I told someone else moments ago, I've been in pre-trib circles for decades, and this is not "what pre-tribbers believe".

Except what I said is what at least some pre-tribbers believe. I don't know if you just didn't understand what I was saying or what, but it makes no sense for any pre-tribber to think that there will be world peace and safety up until the day Jesus returns when, at the same time, you believe there will be a lot of physical disasters and such happening in the world in the time leading up to the day of His return. Despite that, you falsely accused me of misrepresenting pre-tribs when I have seen pre-tribs give their understanding of 1 Thess 5:2-3 and that it can't be referring to the day Christ returns since they don't believe there will be world peace and safety in the days leading up to and including the day He returns.

So if you want to exhort someone to pay attention to details, and not twist things, look to yourself, that you not do this to others.

LOL. Says this person who repeatedly twists what Amils say and falsely accuse us of misrepresenting pre-trib without being able to give even one example of where I've done that in the past.

I can't say how many posts I've read that start along the lines of "Pretribbers believe such and such" when they don't, or it's not a common POV. It's yet another straw man.

You say this, but then you don't bother to show what pretribbers do believe. Look at this post. You're accusing Davidpt of misrepresenting pre-tribs without explaining exactly how he's doing that and without explaining what you actually believe in contrast to what he said. Why should we take you seriously when you just make these claims without backing them up?

How about you actually tell us how exactly Davidpt misrepresented pre-trib in his post instead of just making that claim with no explanation for how he did that and no explanation for what you do believe in contrast to what he said.

 

[amigo de christo]

Except what I said is what at least some pre-tribbers believe. I don't know if you just didn't understand what I was saying or what, but it makes no sense for any pre-tribber to think that there will be world peace and safety up until the day Jesus returns when, at the same time, you believe there will be a lot of physical disasters and such happening in the world in the time leading up to the day of His return. Despite that, you falsely accused me of misrepresenting pre-tribs when I have seen pre-tribs give their understanding of 1 Thess 5:2-3 and that it can't be referring to the day Christ returns since they don't believe there will be world peace and safety in the days leading up to and including the day He returns.


LOL. Says this person who repeatedly twists what Amils say and falsely accuse us of misrepresenting pre-trib without being able to give even one example of where I've done that in the past.


You say this, but then you don't bother to show what pretribbers do believe. Look at this post. You're accusing Davidpt of misrepresenting pre-tribs without explaining exactly how he's doing that and without explaining what you actually believe in contrast to what he said. Why should we take you seriously when you just make these claims without backing them up?

How about you actually tell us how exactly Davidpt misrepresented pre-trib in his post instead of just making that claim with no explanation for how he did that and no explanation for what you do believe in contrast to what he said.

What i say to one i say to all my dear friend .
And yet many , even now ,within christendom and the false religoins
are all merging as one under what they BELEIVE is of GOD , IS HIS LOVE , and shall bring world peace n safety unto this world
and the middle east .
But what did paul say would come upon them all as they were hollering peace n safety .
Was it , A , they get peace n safety , or B , SUDDEN DESTRUCTION .
OH the hour is indeed late and later than many would dare to even know .
JESUS did NOT come to Bring peace upon earth . But rather divisions .
But this group beleives now THIS BE THE PLAN OF GOD HIMSELF .
Feel free to correct me , BUT the last time i checked SOMEONE of SOMETHING else DOES come to offer up peace
and yet BY PEACE destroys many . That spirit , that one , is not one that should have been called GOD
but it is . F or they beleive this to be THE WILL OF GOD . rather odd
IF this were the plan of GOD , for peace n safety , THEN WHY WAS THE DIRE NECESSITY TO BELEIVE ON CHRIST
REMOVED . bingo .
And there shall be NO PEACE unto the wicked . Sounds like a delusion , a set up , a snare
to gather all who rejected the love of the truth to belive THE LIE and to be damned .
For its prophets cry , LET US GO UP to the tab le of interfaith , WHICH CLEARLY DENIED JESUS ,
and we shall have the victory , we shall have peace . King ahab thought similiar too .
WHEN ALL his false prophets as one cried to him , GO YE UP for ye shall have the victory .
But ol king ahad should have heeded MICAH
Rather than the LYING spirit sent to his prophets who misled him into beleiving HE would attain the vicotry
WHEN REALLY IT WAS HIS OWN DESTRUCTION .
Same too today . ITS all a delusion my friend and the prophets cry , GO YE UP , let us be one peoples
let us find common ground with the religoins , we all serve the same GOD , JESUS HAS BEEN DENIED .
OH but they THINK and believe they shall attain peace n safety . NOPE SUDDEN D ESTRUcTION and they will not escape .
ITS ALL A Snare .

 

[Davidpt]

You should quit overgeneralizing the beliefs of others. Just like I told someone else moments ago, I've been in pre-trib circles for decades, and this is not "what pre-tribbers believe".

So if you want to exhort someone to pay attention to details, and not twist things, look to yourself, that you not do this to others.

I can't say how many posts I've read that start along the lines of "Pretribbers believe such and such" when they don't, or it's not a common POV. It's yet another straw man.

Much love!

If you are going to charge me with misreprenting Pretrib, you then need to set the record straight by answering and addressing all these questions I ask below, in order to be fair to me, so I in turn can be fair to Pretrib, in the event I initially wasn't. BTW, I was Pretrib myself for decades. Except I never knew what Pretribbers believe? Is that what we are to believe, that even though I was a Pretribber for decades, I was clueless about what Pretribbers believe? So why was I even a Pretribber then, for decades even, if I didn't even know what Pretribbers believe?

1) Pretribbers do not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 involves the DOTL?

2) Pretribbers do not believe, according to the text, that they are first saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, thus the DOTL, and they shall not escape?

3) Pretribbers do not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 does not lead to the 2nd coming at that time, but instead leads to the beginning of great tribulation?

4) If Pretribbers do not believe any of those things, then what do Preteribbers believe?

5) That both 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and verse 3 support Post Trib not Pretrib?

6) That 1 Thessalonians 5:3 does not involve the DOTL?

7) That 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is at the end of great tribulation, not at the beginning of it?

 

[Davy]

If you are going to charge me with misreprenting Pretrib, you then need to set the record straight by answering and addressing all these questions I ask below, in order to be fair to me, so I in turn can be fair to Pretrib, in the event I initially wasn't. BTW, I was Pretrib myself for decades. Except I never knew what Pretribbers believe? Is that what we are to believe, that even though I was a Pretribber for decades, I was clueless about what Pretribbers believe? So why was I even a Pretribber then, for decades even, if I didn't even know what Pretribbers believe?

1) Pretribbers do not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 involves the DOTL?

2) Pretribbers do not believe, according to the text, that they are first saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, thus the DOTL, and they shall not escape?

3) Pretribbers do not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 does not lead to the 2nd coming at that time, but instead leads to the beginning of great tribulation?

4) If Pretribbers do not believe any of those things, then what do Preteribbers believe?

5) That both 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and verse 3 support Post Trib not Pretrib?

6) That 1 Thessalonians 5:3 does not involve the DOTL?

7) That 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is at the end of great tribulation, not at the beginning of it?

1. the false Pre-trib view of 1 Thess.5 reveals a very serious matter about their LACK of Bible study.

2. with 1 Thess.5:2-4 Apostle Paul was pointing to a Bible prophecy first written about in The Old Testament about the "day of the Lord" (DOTL). That's where Paul got that, "sudden destruction" idea on that day.

3. per 2 Peter 3, Peter spoke of how man's works will be burned off this earth on the "day of the Lord". So how can the great tribulation happen after that burning? Nothing by Satan's host can exist on earth after that burning event.

4. that 2 Peter 3 event of man's works burned off the earth on the DOTL also comes from Old Testament prophecy originally.

5. This all means those who don't understand what Apostle Paul and Peter were teaching about regarding the DOTL, they show they have not done their homework first in the Old Testament prophets.

 

[amigo de christo]

1. the false Pre-trib view of 1 Thess.5 reveals a very serious matter about their LACK of Bible study.

2. with 1 Thess.5:2-4 Apostle Paul was pointing to a Bible prophecy first written about in The Old Testament about the "day of the Lord" (DOTL). That's where Paul got that, "sudden destruction" idea on that day.

3. per 2 Peter 3, Peter spoke of how man's works will be burned off this earth on the "day of the Lord". So how can the great tribulation happen after that burning? Nothing by Satan's host can exist on earth after that burning event.

4. that 2 Peter 3 event of man's works burned off the earth on the DOTL also comes from Old Testament prophecy originally.

5. This all means those who don't understand what Apostle Paul and Peter were teaching about regarding the DOTL, they show they have not done their homework first in the Old Testament prophets.

marvel not , oh marvel not
for the day and the hour has now come
wherein many in even christendom no longer EVEN REALLY BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL of YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM to be saved .
IF they know not and truly believe not EVEN THE GOSPEL
then what would matter if even they did know some truth .
Have i ever made mention before that much of christendom is in dire straits
and now run to the very snare that will en sure their own d amantion .
IF NOT , WELL I JUST SAID IT . we got serious problems in the house my friend .
And many darn sure seem to love this lie that has and is merging us with all religoins . JESUS GOT DENIED
and THEY DON T GIVE A RIP . just get us peace n safety they say and DO NOT expose our sins .

 

[Davy]

marvel not , oh marvel not
for the day and the hour has now come
wherein many in even christendom no longer EVEN REALLY BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL of YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM to be saved .
IF they know not and truly believe not EVEN THE GOSPEL
then what would matter if even they did know some truth .
Have i ever made mention before that much of christendom is in dire straits
and now run to the very snare that will en sure their own d amantion .
IF NOT , WELL I JUST SAID IT . we got serious problems in the house my friend .
And many darn sure seem to love this lie that has and is merging us with all religoins . JESUS GOT DENIED
and THEY DON T GIVE A RIP . just get us peace n safety they say and DO NOT expose our sins .

Yes, however, God has spiritually blinded many brethren that will fall away per Romans 11. And otherwise Lord Jesus would not have not have revealed that the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven is not given to all (Matthew 13:11).

Not all believers are going to reign with Jesus when He returns. So there's more going on than what most Christian brethren think, or are told in the Churches.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, however, God has spiritually blinded many brethren that will fall away per Romans 11. And otherwise Lord Jesus would not have not have revealed that the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven is not given to all (Matthew 13:11).

Not all believers are going to reign with Jesus when He returns. So there's more going on than what most Christian brethren think, or are told in the Churches.

a goat do as a goat do . and yes many goats can appear in wool .
The sheep gonna do AS JESUS said to do .
Many will wail and wail on the great and mighty DAY OF THE LORD .
for if those of the green tree can be persecuted , put to death
even s trung up in gardens to be burned alive
HOW MUCH WORSE is going to come upon those of the dry tree .
JESUS preaching time and let all who name that lovely NAME get the heck out of any ecumenical church
NOW .
because to be unequally yoked will not and does not bode well for the one who does so . HE SHALL FALL
into the snare and the delusion . GOOD reason why GOD said NOT TO BE unequally yoked together with unbelievers .
We better all watch out and be on gaurd . For many are the lovers of a harlots love
and will preach her blended love in order to seduce .

 

[Marvelloustime]

a goat do as a goat do . and yes many goats can appear in wool .
The sheep gonna do AS JESUS said to do .
Many will wail and wail on the great and mighty DAY OF THE LORD .
for if those of the green tree can be persecuted , put to death
even s trung up in gardens to be burned alive
HOW MUCH WORSE is going to come upon those of the dry tree .
JESUS preaching time and let all who name that lovely NAME get the heck out of any ecumenical church
NOW .
because to be unequally yoked will not and does not bode well for the one who does so . HE SHALL FALL
into the snare and the delusion . GOOD reason why GOD said NOT TO BE unequally yoked together with unbelievers .
We better all watch out and be on gaurd . For many are the lovers of a harlots love
and will preach her blended love in order to seduce .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

marvel not , oh marvel not
for the day and the hour has now come
wherein many in even christendom no longer EVEN REALLY BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL of YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM to be saved .
IF they know not and truly believe not EVEN THE GOSPEL
then what would matter if even they did know some truth .
Have i ever made mention before that much of christendom is in dire straits
and now run to the very snare that will en sure their own d amantion .
IF NOT , WELL I JUST SAID IT . we got serious problems in the house my friend .
And many darn sure seem to love this lie that has and is merging us with all religoins . JESUS GOT DENIED
and THEY DON T GIVE A RIP . just get us peace n safety they say and DO NOT expose our sins .

@amigo de christo