WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not the way you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12, that it's meaning the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames, the same way the entire planet was literally engulfed in water during the flood in Noah's day.

That's exactly what Peter taught in the following passage. He compared the two event directly in the same context in terms of the scope of each event.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter was clearly comparing events of the same type and scope here. He didn't compare a literal, physical event with a symbolic or spiritual event. He didn't compare a global event with a local event. No, he clearly compared two literal, physical, global events to each otherand indicated that just as the world in Noah's day was "flooded with water" back then, in the future "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire".

If that is the manner in which that passage should be understood, in that case, no, the DOTL in Zechariah 14 can't fit the DOTL meant in 2 Peter 3. Except I don't interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the same manner as you. Yet I agree with you about the timing.

So, please tell me exactly how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12. It's one thing to say you don't interpret it in the manner I do, but that doesn't mean much if you can't tell me how you interpret it. Also, I'd like to know if you think that passage is talking about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. If so, please tell me how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

Also, how do you interpret 2 Peter 3:13?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

What do you think is "His promise" that the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells will confirm has been fulfilled and kept?

 

[rwb]

I don't Biblically see the "day of the Lord" being that liberally treated in God's written Word.

Even with Jeremiah 46:10 mention of the "day of the LORD" is actually a pointer to the very end of this world with the final battle, using the border of Euphrates as a symbol for the army out of the northern quarters crossing it at the end of this present world.

There's many parallels in Revelation back to the days of the Old Testament prophets, even a repeat of Isaiah's phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen." So there's no reason to treat Apostles Paul and Peter's mention of the "day of the Lord" as any other time than the very last day of this world when Jesus returns, which is the same "day of the Lord" the prophets were pointing to.

Always when the New Testament prophesies of the day of the Lord it is the LAST day of the Lord that that shall be when Christ comes again. Always when the Old Testament prophets prophesy of the day of the Lord they foresaw ONE age to come which came with the advent of Christ and shall end when the last/seventh trumpet sounds the LAST day of the Lord. You will NEVER understand the meaning of the day of the Lord if you try to force a literal/physical interpretation upon the prophecies that are fulfilled and being fulfilled within this age of time called "the day of the Lord".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The DOTL per view leads to and involves the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

How does that fit with 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which tell us that the DOTL will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing sudden and mass destruction upon its arrival? Those passages indicate that the DOTL doesn't come and doesn't begin until the 2nd coming of Christ when He comes as a thief in the night. Those passages make it impossible for the DOTL to already have started before Christ's 2nd coming.

The DOTL ends when all 7 vials of wrath have been fulfilled. This would mean, per my view, the DOTL begins and concludes before the millennium begins. I have entertained in the past that maybe the millennium is part of the DOTL, but then decided that it can't work, that it doesn't make sense.

I thought you were saying it includes the thousand years in another post. Anyway, it seems that our disagreement is not about that, but rather is that you think the DOTL somehow begins even before the day Jesus returns even though 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that the DOTL doesn't begin until the day Jesus returns. Based on those passages, the DOTL is a literal 24 hour day. Some time during that day, Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and bring "sudden destruction" down upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape".

 

[rwb]

How does that fit with 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which tell us that the DOTL will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night bringing sudden and mass destruction upon its arrival? Those passages indicate that the DOTL doesn't come and doesn't begin until the 2nd coming of Christ when He comes as a thief in the night. Those passages make it impossible for the DOTL to already have started before Christ's 2nd coming.

You're confusing the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come and the last day of the Lord the New Testament shows will bring an end to this age of time (a/the thousand years) called the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell began with the first advent of Christ, long before the second coming of Christ which you say is when the day of the Lord shall begin.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're confusing the day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell would come and the last day of the Lord the New Testament shows will bring an end to this age of time (a/the thousand years) called the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord the prophets of Old foretell began with the first advent of Christ, long before the second coming of Christ which you say is when the day of the Lord shall begin.

I disagree. I don't believe OT prophets prophesied about a long period of time called "the day of the Lord". Where exactly are you seeing that? Instead, I see that they prophesied about a long period of time they called "the last days". Which was a reference to the New Testament time period. Peter indicated that the last days had already begun before the day of Pentecost when he quoted Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21 and he indicated that the last days would continue until the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4) while scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming during the last days. Eventually, He will return on the last day of the last days at which point He will resurrected the dead and judge all of mankind from throughout history.

Why would Paul and Peter call it "the day of the Lord", as they do in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10, and not "the last day of the Lord" if they were actually talking about the last day of a long period of time called the day of the Lord? I don't believe they would have done that. They would have wanted to be clear and would have called it the last day of the Lord if they were not, in fact, referring to the day of the Lord itself in those verses. The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord's future return. At some hour on that day, which no person currently knows, He will return unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will have His people gathered to Him "in the air" and He will proceed to bring "sudden destruction" down on unbelievers from which "they shall not escape".

 

[Davidpt]

So, please tell me exactly how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12. It's one thing to say you don't interpret it in the manner I do, but that doesn't mean much if you can't tell me how you interpret it. Also, I'd like to know if you think that passage is talking about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. If so, please tell me how you interpret 2 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

Also, how do you interpret 2 Peter 3:13?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

What do you think is "His promise" that the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells will confirm has been fulfilled and kept?

The way I go about things is like such. I interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12 in light of other passages that are also involving this event and or are meaning after this event. I will list a few below.

Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:31-46, Matthew 19:28, and Luke 19:15-27, to name a few.

Not one single passage that I brought up, does not involve the 2nd coming. not one single passage I brought up, does it ever give the impression that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames, thus burning to death infants, children, adults, and the entire animal kingdom. Therefore, the little bit of common sense I might have tells me that it is absurd to take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in a literal sense when no other passage related to this event supports an interpretation like that.

And besides, look what some of 2 Peter 3:10-12 says--the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

works
ergon
er'-gon
from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

How does literal fire accomplish that? Why is literal fire needed in order to accomplish that?


Then there is this word in verse 10---elements

elements
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of stoicew - stoicheo 4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.
.

That particular Greek word is used in only a handful of verses. Which of those verses support how you are interpreting stoicheion in 2 Peter 3:10?

I don't know what it's going to look like when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is fulfilled, but I can tell you what it's not going to look like. It's not going to look like what you think it's going to look like.

On another note, can you remind me what your view is, in regards to the 7 last vials of wrath(Revelation 16), in relation to the DOTL?

1) All 7 last vials of wrath are poured out during the DOTL

2) Not all 7 last vials are poured out during the DOTL, some are poured out before the DOTL even begins

3) None of the 7 last vials of wrath are poured out during the DOTL

Option 1) is my view.

 

[rwb]

I disagree. I don't believe OT prophets prophesied about a long period of time called "the day of the Lord". Where exactly are you seeing that? Instead, I see that they prophesied about a long period of time they called "the last days". Which was a reference to the New Testament time period. Peter indicated that the last days had already begun before the day of Pentecost when he quoted Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21 and he indicated that the last days would continue until the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-4) while scoffers scoff at the promise of His second coming during the last days. Eventually, He will return on the last day of the last days at which point He will resurrected the dead and judge all of mankind from throughout history.

Why would Paul and Peter call it "the day of the Lord", as they do in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10, and not "the last day of the Lord" if they were actually talking about the last day of a long period of time called the day of the Lord? I don't believe they would have done that. They would have wanted to be clear and would have called it the last day of the Lord if they were not, in fact, referring to the day of the Lord itself in those verses. The day of the Lord is the day of the Lord's future return. At some hour on that day, which no person currently knows, He will return unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will have His people gathered to Him "in the air" and He will proceed to bring "sudden destruction" down on unbelievers from which "they shall not escape".

What is your understanding of the prophecy from Joel, that according to Peter began to be fulfilled when the Spirit was poured out on all flesh, meaning not only to Jews, but Gentile believers also?

Writing of the day of the Lord that is coming and near at hand, the prophet Joel says in those day(s) when the Spirit is poured out upon all flesh, and Peter quoting the prophet writes of this time as "the last days" when all that is written of the Messiah to come would be fulfilled.

Joel 2:1-2 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joel 2:27-32 (KJV) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We know from what is written in the New Testament that the last days began to be fulfilled with the first advent of Christ. That was the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the day of the Lord the prophets foretell. These last days mark the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is written in the prophets, and would be known through John the Baptist, the messenger of the Lord ordained to be the voice crying in the wilderness the day of the Lord has come in these last days, telling the people to repent for the One the prophets promised would come as the day of the Lord had finally come with salvation to all who repent and believe.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Mark 1:1-2 (KJV) The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Isaiah 40:3 (KJV) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

The only time that shall be left for this earth when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound is Satan's little season. How can that be the day of the Lord since it is clearly a very small amount of time given to Satan that will end in him being utterly destroyed? The prophets speak of the day of the Lord as the time when man can call upon the name of the Lord to be saved! That cannot be a short amount of time and certainly not one thousand literal years. It will take much time for the day of the Lord to accomplish the mission of building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The way I go about things is like such. I interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12 in light of other passages that are also involving this event and or are meaning after this event. I will list a few below.

Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:31-46, Matthew 19:28, and Luke 19:15-27, to name a few.

Would you include 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3? That's clearly about the same event since there will not be two different days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night.

Not one single passage that I brought up, does not involve the 2nd coming. not one single passage I brought up, does it ever give the impression that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames, thus burning to death infants, children, adults, and the entire animal kingdom.

I would say that Paul indicating that there will be sudden destruction from which unbelievers "shall not escape" strongly suggests an event of mass global destruction of some kind. If not by fire, then by what? It can't be by water because God promised to never flood the earth again. And, in Luke 21:35 Jesus talked about His wrath at His second coming by saying "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.". If it comes on them that dwell on the face of the whole earth, then how do you think that will occur, if not by fire?

Therefore, the little bit of common sense I might have

You need to give up this common sense nonsense. Scripture doesn't always line up with human common sense, which is why Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 that the deep things of God, such as those we talk about on this forum, must be spiritually discerned and cannot be understood by the natural man using fallible human wisdom (or common sense).

tells me that it is absurd to take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in a literal sense when no other passage related to this event supports an interpretation like that.

Other passages that speak of the same event like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and Matthew 24:35-39 speak of global physical destruction occurring when Jesus returns, so I see no basis for what you're saying here. Just because those don't specifically mention how the destruction occurs doesn't mean it can't be by fire. Those passages don't mention that at all, but 2 Peter 3:10-12 does. Also, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 does talk about Jesus coming in flaming fire to take vengeance on all unbelievers.

And besides, look what some of 2 Peter 3:10-12 says--the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

works
ergon
er'-gon
from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

How does literal fire accomplish that? Why is literal fire needed in order to accomplish that?

That verse is not talking about works in that way. In Thayer's lexicon another definition for that word is "2. any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind" and that lexicon applies that definition to 2 Peter 3:10. It's talking about the works of man as in the things that man has built using materials that God created. Those things will all be burned up. All the buildings, vehicles, products, pieces of art and so on that man has made or built will be burned up.

Also, do you just ignore that it says "the earth also" itself will be burned up and not just "the works that are therein"?

Then there is this word in verse 10---elements

elements
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of stoicew - stoicheo 4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):--element, principle, rudiment.
.

That particular Greek word is used in only a handful of verses. Which of those verses support how you are interpreting stoicheion in 2 Peter 3:10?

It does not matter if it's used that way in any other verse or not. That doesn't dictate whether or not it can be used in that way in 2 Peter 3:10. There is no reason for it to be used that way in any other verse because no other verse talks about the material elements. That doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10 can't refer to the material elements. That Greek word can be used to refer to the material elements and it does in 2 Peter 3:10.

If you deny that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is talking about physical destruction occurring when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, then, to be consistent, you would need to believe that about 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 as well. So, is that your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, that it's not talking about physical destruction?

I don't know what it's going to look like when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is fulfilled, but I can tell you what it's not going to look like. It's not going to look like what you think it's going to look like.

I can tell you that you are 100% wrong about that because you are so clearly basing your claim on extreme doctrinal bias and nothing more.

Again, if you claim that 2 Peter 3:10-12 has nothing to do with physical destruction, then you would have to conclude that about 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 as well since that passage is clearly about the same day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night as 2 Peter 3:10-12. But, it's not reasonable at all to draw that conclusion. Jesus Himself said that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly when He comes and He compared what will happen when He returns to what happened when the flood killed all unbelievers in Noah's day (Matthew 24:35-39). Scripture is VERY clear that mass physical destruction will occur when Jesus returns. It's not reasonable at all to deny that. But, yet, you are still trying to deny that, anyway.

On another note, can you remind me what your view is, in regards to the 7 last vials of wrath(Revelation 16), in relation to the DOTL?

1) All 7 last vials of wrath are poured out during the DOTL

2) Not all 7 last vials are poured out during the DOTL, some are poured out before the DOTL even begins

3) None of the 7 last vials of wrath are poured out during the DOTL

Option 1) is my view.

I guess I'd say option 2 then. To be clear, I believe only the 7th vial is poured out during the DOTL since I see the DOTL as being the day Christ returns as a thief in the night. I have said many times to you that I see the seals, trumpets and vials as all being parallel to each other. So, I see Him returning at the 7th seal/trumpet/vial.

How does your view make any sense in light of the fact that at the time of the sixth vial, Jesus will not yet have come as a thief since it records Him as saying "Behold, I come as a thief" as of the time that sixth vial is poured out? The DOTL comes as a thief in the night because Jesus will come as a thief in the night. It's His coming that brings the DOTL. You can't have the DOTL coming any time before the end of the 6th vial.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is your understanding of the prophecy from Joel, that according to Peter began to be fulfilled when the Spirit was poured out on all flesh, meaning not only to Jews, but Gentile believers also?

Writing of the day of the Lord that is coming and near at hand, the prophet Joel says in those day(s) when the Spirit is poured out upon all flesh, and Peter quoting the prophet writes of this time as "the last days" when all that is written of the Messiah to come would be fulfilled.

Joel 2:1-2 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joel 2:27-32 (KJV) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We know from what is written in the New Testament that the last days began to be fulfilled with the first advent of Christ. That was the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the day of the Lord the prophets foretell. These last days mark the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is written in the prophets, and would be known through John the Baptist, the messenger of the Lord ordained to be the voice crying in the wilderness the day of the Lord has come in these last days, telling the people to repent for the One the prophets promised would come as the day of the Lord had finally come with salvation to all who repent and believe.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Mark 1:1-2 (KJV) The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Isaiah 40:3 (KJV) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

The only time that shall be left for this earth when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound is Satan's little season. How can that be the day of the Lord since it is clearly a very small amount of time given to Satan that will end in him being utterly destroyed? The prophets speak of the day of the Lord as the time when man can call upon the name of the Lord to be saved! That cannot be a short amount of time and certainly not one thousand literal years. It will take much time for the day of the Lord to accomplish the mission of building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

I already touched on that. I see the time of the New Testament as "the last days", not "the day of the Lord". You seem to be mixing up "the last days" with "the day of the Lord" for some reason. I see "the last days" spoken about by Joel and referenced by Peter in Acts 2 as referring to the New Testament time period leading up to the future day of the Lord that scripture says will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night. It's the day that the Lord Jesus returns that will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, so that is why it is referred to as the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night.

Notice in Joel 2 that it talks about the day of the Lord as being a day of darkness and gloominess. That doesn't describe the whole New Testament era, but it does describe the actual day that the Lord returns as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon unbleivers from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

Notice in Joel 2:27-32 that it talks about God saying in "those days will I pour out my Spirit" and those days would come "BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the Lord". We know that Peter indicated that "those days" referred to "the last days" that had already begun before the day of Pentecost long ago. But, the last days lead up to the day of the Lord. You have the day of the Lord occurring at the same time as the last days. No, the last days, which we're still in now, lead up to the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night bringing suden destruction upon unbelievers from which they shall not escape.

You didn't address what I said about how Paul and Peter worded things. If they were referring to the last day of the Lord rather than the day of the Lord itslf in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10, then why did they not refer specifically to "the LAST day of the Lord" rather than "the day of the Lord" in those verses? I think you need to be able to explain that if the day of the Lord is not the day that the Lord will come again as a thief in the night, as Paul and Peter indicated.

 

[rwb]

I already touched on that. I see the time of the New Testament as "the last days", not "the day of the Lord". You seem to be mixing up "the last days" with "the day of the Lord" for some reason.

The last days are the day of the Lord! That's why the prophets foretell of ALL that shall come to pass during these last days that are the day/age/time of the Lord. The time when the promised Messiah foretold to come came to fulfill all that was written of Him. The day of the Lord is the fullness of time from the first advent of Christ until the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound.

I see "the last days" spoken about by Joel and referenced by Peter in Acts 2 as referring to the New Testament time period leading up to the future day of the Lord that scripture says will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

The last days spoken by Joel is reference to the whole New Testament period of time given the church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they proclaim the gospel unto all the nations of the world. This time "the day of the Lord" will end suddenly and unexpectedly for those who are not looking for Christ to come AGAIN, not for the day of the Lord, but coming with wrath and judgment for the whole world! The last day won't usher in more day(s), it will end ONE day with signs in the heavens and earth, and Christ seen coming in the clouds of heaven.

Notice in Joel 2:27-32 that it talks about God saying in "those days will I pour out my Spirit" and those days would come "BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the Lord".

The prophets know and write only of the day/age/time when the promised Messiah would come. The last day of the Lord that will be turned into darkness before the "great and terrible day of the Lord come" shall be for whosoever does NOT call on the name of the Lord for deliverance. That final day of the Lord won't be darkness for those who are looking and waiting for Christ to come again. The prophets know nothing of the second coming of Christ in judgment with wrath, so they write only of the day of the Lord that would come when all that is written would be fulfilled. The prophets write of both the day of the Lord coming with salvation, as well as coming with great wrath and both come to pass in these last days when the gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all mankind.

Joel 2:31 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

The prophets could not know the day of the Lord would end with a second coming of Christ. How could they know of a second coming of Christ since they did not live to see the first coming of Christ at His appointed time. The day of the Lord's coming was in the fullness of time foretold by the prophets. They did not know when the fullness of time for the day of the Lord would begin or end. So, they foretell only of the day of the Lord that would come in the fulness of time not understanding His time for building His Church would end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

We know that Peter indicated that "those days" referred to "the last days" that had already begun before the day of Pentecost long ago.

The last days according to Scripture came when Christ came to earth a man. The last days are the day of the Lord which began with His first coming and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth shall be no longer.

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Mark 1:1-2 (KJV) The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

You didn't address what I said about how Paul and Peter worded things. If they were referring to the last day of the Lord rather than the day of the Lord itslf in verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10, then why did they not refer specifically to "the LAST day of the Lord" rather than "the day of the Lord" in those verses? I think you need to be able to explain that if the day of the Lord is not the day that the Lord will come again as a thief in the night, as Paul and Peter indicated.

Why would the New Testament write the LAST day of the day of the Lord since they knew the day of the Lord that would come AGAIN would be the LAST DAY of these last days and time symbolized a thousand years would be no longer?

 

[Davidpt]

The last days are the day of the Lord! That's why the prophets foretell of ALL that shall come to pass during these last days that are the day/age/time of the Lord. The time when the promised Messiah foretold to come came to fulfill all that was written of Him. The day of the Lord is the fullness of time from the first advent of Christ until the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound.


The last days spoken by Joel is reference to the whole New Testament period of time given the church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they proclaim the gospel unto all the nations of the world. This time "the day of the Lord" will end suddenly and unexpectedly for those who are not looking for Christ to come AGAIN, not for the day of the Lord, but coming with wrath and judgment for the whole world! The last day won't usher in more day(s), it will end ONE day with signs in the heavens and earth, and Christ seen coming in the clouds of heaven.



The prophets know and write only of the day/age/time when the promised Messiah would come. The last day of the Lord that will be turned into darkness before the "great and terrible day of the Lord come" shall be for whosoever does NOT call on the name of the Lord for deliverance. That final day of the Lord won't be darkness for those who are looking and waiting for Christ to come again. The prophets know nothing of the second coming of Christ in judgment with wrath, so they write only of the day of the Lord that would come when all that is written would be fulfilled. The prophets write of both the day of the Lord coming with salvation, as well as coming with great wrath and both come to pass in these last days when the gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all mankind.

Joel 2:31 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

The prophets could not know the day of the Lord would end with a second coming of Christ. How could they know of a second coming of Christ since they did not live to see the first coming of Christ at His appointed time. The day of the Lord's coming was in the fullness of time foretold by the prophets. They did not know when the fullness of time for the day of the Lord would begin or end. So, they foretell only of the day of the Lord that would come in the fulness of time not understanding His time for building His Church would end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.



The last days according to Scripture came when Christ came to earth a man. The last days are the day of the Lord which began with His first coming and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth shall be no longer.

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Mark 1:1-2 (KJV) The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.



Why would the New Testament write the LAST day of the day of the Lord since they knew the day of the Lord that would come AGAIN would be the LAST DAY of these last days and time symbolized a thousand years would be no longer?

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

dreadful
yare'
yaw-ray'
a primitive root; to fear; morally, to revere; caus. to frighten:--affright, be (make) afraid, dread(-ful), (put in) fear(-ful, -fully, -ing), (be had in) reverence(-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).

Apparently, the way you tend to understand some of these things, this began 2000 years ago during the feast of Pentecost---the great and dreadful day of the LORD--and led to at that time what is recorded in verse 1. After all, clearly, 'the day cometh' meant in verse 1 is meaning this same great and dreadful day of the LORD in verse 5. It's also meaning Zechariah 14:1. After all, the NT only knows of one day of the Lord during the last days, not multiple days of the Lord during the last days. The DOTL comes as a thief in the night, and that it only comes like that once, not multiple different times. Is one going to argue that Zechariah 14:1 is not involving a dreadful day of the Lord, but is involving a pleasant day of the Lord instead?

Verses 5 and 6 were fulfilled 2000 years ago when Christ walked the earth, but that doesn't mean so was all of verse 5 fulfilled 2000 years ago. This part certainly wasn't--the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

 

[rwb]

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

dreadful
yare'
yaw-ray'
a primitive root; to fear; morally, to revere; caus. to frighten:--affright, be (make) afraid, dread(-ful), (put in) fear(-ful, -fully, -ing), (be had in) reverence(-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).

Apparently, the way you tend to understand some of these things, this began 2000 years ago during the feast of Pentecost---the great and dreadful day of the LORD--and led to at that time what is recorded in verse 1. After all, clearly, 'the day cometh' meant in verse 1 is meaning this same great and dreadful day of the LORD in verse 5. It's also meaning Zechariah 14:1. After all, the NT only knows of one day of the Lord during the last days, not multiple days of the Lord during the last days. The DOTL comes as a thief in the night, and that it only comes like that once, not multiple different times. Is one going to argue that Zechariah 14:1 is not involving a dreadful day of the Lord, but is involving a pleasant day of the Lord instead?

Verses 5 and 6 were fulfilled 2000 years ago when Christ walked the earth, but that doesn't mean so was all of verse 5 fulfilled 2000 years ago. This part certainly wasn't--the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

No David, I don't believe the final day of the Lord has yet come, bringing much dread and fear with it. For that final day of the Lord shall indeed be a great and dreadful day for those who remain in unbelief, and for the saints still alive before the Lord comes it will be a time of great tribulation and trial for them because Satan will be given a little season after this time (symbolically a/the thousand years) for the day of the Lord is finished. But much of what the prophets foretell regarding the day of the Lord has indeed already come to pass and continuing since the first advent of Christ. The prophets write of only one age with the coming of the Lord, speaking of The Messiah's age/time/day as though everything written will soon/quickly/suddenly come to pass. But they had no way of knowing that once the day of the Lord came His day would be the whole New Covenant era, or the entire time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth.

You can't have some of the prophesy fulfilled about 2,000 years ago then argue the final or end of the day of the Lord does not belong to the same day of the Lord. Now, in this day of the Lord is time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, but once this time expires and Satan is once again set free, shall be a very fearful time for this earth. Because then the final trumpet sounding will announce not a time to be saved, or a time for building, it will be a little time given Satan, immediately followed by signs of Christ' coming AGAIN with the wrath of God to utterly burn up this whole earth and whosoever is still left alive in it.

 

[Davy]

Always when the New Testament prophesies of the day of the Lord it is the LAST day of the Lord that that shall be when Christ comes again.

I never disagreed to that. Yes, Jesus' return is only... on the LAST day of this present world, and that is the "day of the Lord."

Always when the Old Testament prophets prophesy of the day of the Lord they foresaw ONE age to come which came with the advent of Christ and shall end when the last/seventh trumpet sounds the LAST day of the Lord. You will NEVER understand the meaning of the day of the Lord if you try to force a literal/physical interpretation upon the prophecies that are fulfilled and being fulfilled within this age of time called "the day of the Lord".

But that above is just a wild... statement.

The Old Testament prophets were GIVEN to write the prophecies about the "day of the Lord" by The Holy Spirit. That didn't mean they understood everything they were given, for Apostles Paul and Peter both revealed the prophets looked for those things, including The Gospel Salvation, but didn't fully understand its manifesting. Thus it is a mistake to assume what the Old Testament prophets understood or didn't understand about the "day of the Lord" events.

Per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:11, he showed that the Old Testament events serve as "ensamples" for us, upon whom the ends of the world have come. Because of how many of those OT events are shown as types for the end of this world, that means blueprints for the end.

And as for a NON-literal interpretation of God's written Word, which sounds like what you are suggesting, that's just a crock of garbage from men's doctrines, and is what got some Christians at the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt in trouble, like Origen who treated much of the Bible as one huge allegory. God's written Word is always... literal, even when it uses allegory, parable, metaphor, and expressions, because those things exist in every language as tools used to get the real point across. God in His Word uses them a lot, and they always... point to some literal idea or truth.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Our God is a consuming fire" (Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 10:29). With this in mind, one question, which may or may not seem relevant to some, arises in my mind that I would... well, raise in a rhetorical manner to @Davidpt ... Regarding 2 Peter 3, how can the works of man... all be burned up? And in... "asking" <smile> ...that question, no, these works of man that Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3 are not "the things that man has built using materials that God created." These are deeds, as is the case throughout the Bible, especially in the New Testament, and especially as referred to by Paul, Peter, and James... and Jesus, especially in His graphic portrayal of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46...

In addition to the above, regarding the day of the Lord ~ really just specifically 'day' ~ there are places in the bible where 'day' refers to a literal earth day of 24 hours, but there are also places where 'day' is meaning the portion of the twenty-four hour period in which the sun was up and it was light outside, and there are also places where 'day' is meaning a time period of unspecified length, sometimes spanning years or a generation, a season in that sense. The same is true even of 'year' and 'generation.' Context and discernment come into play, of course... <smile> At any rate, some believe that the day of the Lord will be a longer period of time than a single day (and there are divergent views of what will take place "in that day"...). And others believe the day of the Lord is a literal day and the event will be a very brief ~ if not instantaneous ~ thing... the return of Christ to finally redeem His faithful believers and execute the final Judgment. I say both are right, each in its own context.

 

[WPM]

"Our God is a consuming fire" (Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 10:29). With this in mind, one question, which may or may not seem relevant to some, arises in my mind that I would... well, raise in a rhetorical manner to @Davidpt ... Regarding 2 Peter 3, how can the works of man... all be burned up? And in... "asking" <smile> ...that question, no, these works of man that Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3 are not "the things that man has built using materials that God created." These are deeds, as is the case throughout the Bible, especially in the New Testament, and especially as referred to by Paul, Peter, and James... and Jesus, especially in His graphic portrayal of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46...

In addition to the above, regarding the day of the Lord ~ really just specifically 'day' ~ there are places in the bible where 'day' refers to a literal earth day of 24 hours, but there are also places where 'day' is meaning the portion of the twenty-four hour period in which the sun was up and it was light outside, and there are also places where 'day' is meaning a time period of unspecified length, sometimes spanning years or a generation, a season in that sense. The same is true even of 'year' and 'generation.' Context and discernment come into play, of course... <smile> At any rate, some believe that the day of the Lord will be a longer period of time than a single day (and there are divergent views of what will take place "in that day"...). And others believe the day of the Lord is a literal day and the event will be a very brief ~ if not instantaneous ~ thing... the return of Christ to finally redeem His faithful believers and execute the final Judgment. I say both are right, each in its own context.

The day that Jesus returns is an actual day. The Bible calls it “the last day” (singular). This is presented in direct contrast to “the last days” (plural). Basically, it is the final day of the last days. It is not a figurative indefinite day. After all, time concludes at the last trumpet. When you couple that with the sudden and climactic detail attached to the day it is easy to understand its literal meaning. But because this demolishes the Premillennial thesis. Premillennialists spiritual the day to be a prolonged period of time and they spiritualize away the wholesale destruction that destroys the current corrupt natural.

 

[PinSeeker]

Amen! The day that Jesus returns is an actual day.

Well, yes, we do know that He will return in the same way in which He ascended to heaven, as documented by Luke in Acts 1...

The Bible calls it “the last day” (singular). This is presented in direct contrast to “the last days” (plural). Basically, it is the final day of the last days. It is not a figurative indefinite day. After all, time concludes at the last trumpet. When you couple that with the sudden and climactic detail attached to the day it is easy to understand its literal meaning. But because this negates the Premil thesis, Premillennialists spiritual the day to be a prolonged period of time and they spiritualize away the wholesale destruction that destroys the current corrupt natural when Jesus comes.

...but I don't think you're quite understanding what I said above. There is a sense in which ~ and I think you'll agree with this ~ that the day of the Lord was when He actually lived on earth, a little over 2,000 years ago, for about 33 years. And there is a sense in which we are in the day of the Lord now. And yes, there is a sense in which the day of the Lord will be the literal day when He returns. Yeah? <smile>

Just for the record, I understand what you mean by it, but I... wince, a little, sometimes... when I hear people use the term 'spiritualize' in a disparaging manner... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, WPM!

 

[WPM]

Well, yes, we do know that He will return in the same way in which He ascended to heaven, as documented by Luke in Acts 1...


...but I don't think you're quite understanding what I said above. There is a sense in which ~ and I think you'll agree with this ~ that the day of the Lord was when He actually lived on earth, a little over 2,000 years ago, for about 33 years. And there is a sense in which we are in the day of the Lord now. And yes, there is a sense in which the day of the Lord will be the literal day when He returns. Yeah? <smile>

Just for the record, I understand what you mean by it, but I... wince, a little, sometimes... when I hear people use the term 'spiritualize' in a disparaging manner... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, WPM!

I understand. Spiritualizing is only wrong if it is explaining away a literal reality. And, yes, many Christians do that to support false teaching - normally end-time teaching. I did not direct that at anything you wrote.

The term "the day of the Lord" in both the OT and the NT normally refers to a literal day of destruction. It is normally a time when God is pouring out His wrath on a nation or on this world (as in the end when Jesus comes). I do not see that addressed to the Lord's first Advent, or the intra-Advent period. Can you show me a Scripture that clearly states that?

 

[WPM]

Well, yes, we do know that He will return in the same way in which He ascended to heaven, as documented by Luke in Acts 1...


...but I don't think you're quite understanding what I said above. There is a sense in which ~ and I think you'll agree with this ~ that the day of the Lord was when He actually lived on earth, a little over 2,000 years ago, for about 33 years. And there is a sense in which we are in the day of the Lord now. And yes, there is a sense in which the day of the Lord will be the literal day when He returns. Yeah? <smile>

Just for the record, I understand what you mean by it, but I... wince, a little, sometimes... when I hear people use the term 'spiritualize' in a disparaging manner... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, WPM!

I have seen some Amils assume that to explain Zechariah 14. But the text does not say "day of the Lord" in the original but "a day is coming for the LORD."

 

[Davidpt]

I have seen some Amils assume that to explain Zechariah 14. But the text does not say "day of the Lord" in the original but "a day is coming for the LORD."

What destroys your argument is that Zechariah 14:1 is not meaning a coming during the first century, in any sense. It is absurd that the Lord gathered all nations to battle against Jerusalem in the first century, then went forth and fought against those nations, thus the Romans, especially when Jerusalem is not even meaning the literal city in the Middle East to begin with in that section of Zechariah 14. It is meaning the city meant in Revelation 11:1-2. And I'm not even an Amil, yet I have better spiritual discernment in this case than a lot of Amils do. You would think it should be the other way around.

 

[PinSeeker]

What destroys your argument is that Zechariah 14:1 is not meaning a coming during the first century, in any sense.

That's not what any of us are saying, David. I don't think... at least not me. A... "good Amil" <smile> ...would never even insinuate that.

Grace and peace to you.