Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[St. SteVen]

And you copied and pasted Bible text straight after your moment. Wow!

I had a moment? Thanks. (I missed it) - LOL

 

[Hiddenthings]

I have asked you to make your point on the scriptures you've quoted ie, Jeremiah 34 and Luke 12.
Your side stepping and decoying only makes me conclude you have no point.

God judges those who rebel against Him @quietthinker . Sometimes His judgment comes through giving freedom to the sword, to execute justice as seen in Jeremiah 34. Christ also warned of this principle when he spoke of the rebellious servant who would be cut in pieces when the master of the house returns (Christ). We need to ensure the Master has our full attention; ears pierced through with an awl. Unfortunately, you’re focused on refuting a false doctrine of eternal torment while overlooking the truth that’s right before you.

 

[St. SteVen]

He must stay true to His character......

True to His character as what?
An unstable tyrant capable of unbridled blazing fury?

 

[Hiddenthings]

An unstable tyrant capable of unbridled blazing retribution?

Exaggeration is not a mark of wisdom

 

[St. SteVen]

Unfortunately, you’re focused on refuting a false doctrine of eternal torment while overlooking the truth that’s right before you.

Are you saying that you are an Annihilationist? (the wicked will be destroyed in a moment)

Caution: Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism.

Are you ignoring the contradictory scriptures that say that the torment of the wicked is for all eternity?

 

[St. SteVen]

Exaggeration is not a mark of wisdom

I blame the Bible. Remember Edom?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Are you saying that you are an Annihilationist? (the wicked will be destroyed in a moment)

They will return to dust - the Bible doesn't speak of immortal souls so how can they be tortured?

Caution: Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism.

Are you ignoring the contradictory scriptures that say that the torment of the wicked is for all eternity?

Death is permanent! the knowledge of that fate will have many weeping and gnashing their teeth!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker - In Luke 12, Christ’s teaching refers back to the Old Testament practice of making (cutting a) covenants, where a person would cut animals in half and pass between them as a way of sealing the agreement. A double-minded person will face the same judgment as those animals cut in the covenant, not literally, but in the severity of their punishment. Jeremiah 34 cmp Luke 12.

 

[Lizbeth]

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

You choose to ignore so many scriptures....or perhaps are not familiar with some of them. The bible says upon death, the human "spirit returns to God who gave it"....it seems that the human spirit is eternal ("He has set eternity in our hearts") ...... and Jesus said we are to fear Him Who can DESTROY body and soul in gehenna (fire - lake of fire - God's consuming fire). Spirit is eternal, but not our body/soul except for those who are redeemed. "Man is like the beasts that PERISH".....that speaks to temporal life, not eternal (because of sin), unless one is redeemed.

From what I understand, Soul = Body + Spirit. Body/soul without the spirit is dead (when it returns to God), aka the soul is dead/perished, meaning not saved, not having eternal life (as concerns the unredeemed).

As scripture is quite clear, not everyone will be redeemed. Most only have temporal life like the animals....and even temporal life is more than mankind "deserves"....we are not innocent like the animals. God has graciously given us all time to repent and accept redemption by receiving He through Whom redemption is given. Mankind should be thankful even for temporal life on this planet. It is not at all unrighteous of the Lord to not grant eternal life to some....it isn't as if eternal life is "owed" to anyone. Perhaps we should be looking at the cup as being half full, not half empty.

 

[St. SteVen]

They will return to dust - the Bible doesn't speak of immortal souls so how can they be tortured?

Death is permanent! the knowledge of that fate will have many weeping and gnashing their teeth!

That sounds like SDA doctrine.

 

[Lizbeth]

I recently gave a study on Christ's words from Luke 12

12:46 then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unfaithful Lk 12:45–46.

Do you know where the idea of being “cut in two” comes from?
Don’t worry, it’s not meant literally, as Jack might think, but it is still quite serious.
Can you read Jeremiah 34 to see the application of the Law from Exodus 21:1–11, Deuteronomy 15:12–18 - If yourve comes this far would you like to see how Christ fulfilled that law in Psalm 40 and Hebrews 10?
See how you go!

That sounds like a good study. I wonder if the cutting in two is a picture of the spirit being severed from the body/soul = death.

 

[Lizbeth]

Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)​

The best I can come up with is, frying billions for eternity is a qualification right there.
Ooopps, I guess many are unable to tell the difference between qualifying actions. The insistence on taring God with attributes of a monster, screams mental and emotional instability.

Not all Christians believe God "fries billions for eternity". I believe there is torment to a degree and for a time that is exactly fitting for the extent and degree of the individual's sin/iniquity.....because God is perfectly just. Maybe that is pictured by where it says men will be trying desperately to hide...from the light that shows up their every sin and the wrath......seeking death and not be able to find it......such a torment, nowhere to hide from the awful truth of their sins or hide from the wrath. At the end of that torment is the lake of fire = destruction of the soul. The second death is what is eternal - no coming back from that death.

The smoke of their torment going up forever......I believe might be a picture of a kind of eternal memorial/reminder to those in heaven....a warning and reminder of what would happen if they were to fall like the rebelling angels fell. The "smoke" of it goes up forever, it doesn't say the actual torment lasts forever. I'm open to being corrected or tweeked on some of these things....from what I read in scripture up to now, it makes sense to me.

 

[Lizbeth]

True to His character as what?
An unstable tyrant capable of unbridled blazing fury?

He is what He is........purity (holiness) that cannot abide with impurity, and consumes it from before His presence. Like light destroys darkness. And He has been just and righteous to give mankind plenty of warning and time to repent. But the bible says His Spirit will not strive with man forever....His longsuffering has an end.

 

[St. SteVen]

He is what He is........purity (holiness) that cannot abide with impurity, and consumes it from before His presence. Like light destroys darkness. And He has been just and righteous to give mankind plenty of warning and time to repent. But the bible says His Spirit will not strive with man forever....His longsuffering has an end.

I have heard this unsatisfying double-talk all of my adult life.
If God's holiness cannot abide impurity, how could he spent a moment with us?
Since God is omnipresent, why hasn't all the impurity already burned up?
What you claim makes no sense.

 

[shepherdsword]

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

Ah....you object to eternal conscious punishment. Well, I HOPE you are right, I truly do. However, I see the scriptures as mandating it. I hope I am wrong.

I think we fail to understand eternity. It's because we are products of time. We can't grasp existence outside space and time. Eternal life and Eternal punishment are eternal because they are outside of space and time and are not subject to it. Both life and punishment are forever in the now.

 

[quietthinker]

God judges those who rebel against Him @quietthinker . Sometimes His judgment comes through giving freedom to the sword, to execute justice as seen in Jeremiah 34. Christ also warned of this principle when he spoke of the rebellious servant who would be cut in pieces when the master of the house returns (Christ). We need to ensure the Master has our full attention; ears pierced through with an awl. Unfortunately, you’re focused on refuting a false doctrine of eternal torment while overlooking the truth that’s right before you.

You waffle, Hiddenthings. There is only a pretence of knowledge!

 

[quietthinker]

Not all Christians believe God "fries billions for eternity". I believe there is torment to a degree and for a time that is exactly fitting for the extent and degree of the individual's sin/iniquity.....because God is perfectly just. Maybe that is pictured by where it says men will be trying desperately to hide...from the light that shows up their every sin and the wrath......seeking death and not be able to find it......such a torment, nowhere to hide from the awful truth of their sins or hide from the wrath. At the end of that torment is the lake of fire = destruction of the soul. The second death is what is eternal - no coming back from that death.

The smoke of their torment going up forever......I believe might be a picture of a kind of eternal memorial/reminder to those in heaven....a warning and reminder of what would happen if they were to fall like the rebelling angels fell. The "smoke" of it goes up forever, it doesn't say the actual torment lasts forever. I'm open to being corrected or tweeked on some of these things....from what I read in scripture up to now, it makes sense to me.

Truth revealed to the unwilling will have them running from this torment....yes, they will cry for the rocks and mountains to fall on them because they wrongly perceive God and the Lamb to be wrathful. Rev. 6:16

Suicide is preferable to the wicked rather than come clean. (such is the fruit of pride)

 

[Hiddenthings]

You waffle, Hiddenthings. There is only a pretence of knowledge!

A predicable hearing-impaired response...maybe one day you will surprise?

 

[complete]

Stumbled upon a word I rarely see used. Magnanimous.
I sought a complete definition. (see below)
When I found it, I realized that it fit my personal view of God.
God is magnanimous.

Defined as:
Highly moral, especially in showing kindness or forgiveness,
as in overlooking insults or not seeking revenge.

Questions:
- Is God known for showing kindness and forgiveness?
- Is God known for overlooking insults and not seeking revenge? (revenge is a sin)
- Is God easily offended? (a hothead)
- Does God repay evil with good? (as we are expected to)

/ cc: @Chadrho @Hillsage

Hello @St. StVen,

No, I do not believe that God can be defined as magnanimous. This is a word that, for me, is used by man in relation to other mankind, and should be confined to them.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[St. SteVen]

No, I do not believe that God can be defined as magnanimous. This is a word that, for me, is used by man in relation to other mankind, and should be confined to them.

So God is not highly moral, especially in showing kindness or forgiveness,
as in overlooking insults or not seeking revenge?