ProverbsInPink
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Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Just looking at the justice system in Israel is enlightening....the punishment was adjusted to the severity of the crime. No crime resulted in jail time because there were no jails in ancient Israel.
The closest thing they had to a jail was a “city of refuge” where someone who had accidentally taken a person’s life was to flee for their own safety. The nearest male relative to the victim had a right under law to take the life of the offender, so in order for an accidental manlslayer to be protected under the law, they had to remain in the appointed city (six in all) until the death of the High Priest. The offender was first tried by the elders in that city as to his guilt or innocence and entry was only granted to one who was not guilty of murder, but of accidental manslaughter.
Nor was there cruel and unusual punishment involving torture.....to compensate the victim was more important, and to have a fair trial where all things were brought forth as evidence, made sure that justice was served in the right way, not just punishment for its own sake. That kind of punishment meted out to the nation en masse, was to act as a deterrent for the survivors, when the whole nation was lured into wrongdoing, usually by bad leadership. In all things there was a lesson.
God was neither sadistically cruel nor overly generous or sentimental in his forgiveness.....a person had to be repentant at heart, no ‘crocodile tears’ would be recognised by the one who reads hearts. No genuine repentance meant no forgiveness.
We also have to understand that death to God is not permanent, unless someone has proven to be incorrigibly wicked. Since Jesus promises to resurrect all the dead, (John 5:28-29) having a Scriptural view of death as being a state of suspended animation, (Eccl 9:5, 10) rather than an invisible part of humans going to destinations unknown....death is not permanent if Jesus brings all the dead back to life. The only ones missing will be those who defied God and his Christ in this world’s final judgment.
In this judgment period, we determine our own destiny by what we accept as truth.....and it is our heart that determines what path we will be found on. (Matt 7:13-14: 21-23) Travelling with the majority might seem safe, but according to Jesus it is the wrong road.
The closest thing they had to a jail was a “city of refuge” where someone who had accidentally taken a person’s life was to flee for their own safety. The nearest male relative to the victim had a right under law to take the life of the offender, so in order for an accidental manlslayer to be protected under the law, they had to remain in the appointed city (six in all) until the death of the High Priest. The offender was first tried by the elders in that city as to his guilt or innocence and entry was only granted to one who was not guilty of murder, but of accidental manslaughter.
Nor was there cruel and unusual punishment involving torture.....to compensate the victim was more important, and to have a fair trial where all things were brought forth as evidence, made sure that justice was served in the right way, not just punishment for its own sake. That kind of punishment meted out to the nation en masse, was to act as a deterrent for the survivors, when the whole nation was lured into wrongdoing, usually by bad leadership. In all things there was a lesson.
God was neither sadistically cruel nor overly generous or sentimental in his forgiveness.....a person had to be repentant at heart, no ‘crocodile tears’ would be recognised by the one who reads hearts. No genuine repentance meant no forgiveness.
We also have to understand that death to God is not permanent, unless someone has proven to be incorrigibly wicked. Since Jesus promises to resurrect all the dead, (John 5:28-29) having a Scriptural view of death as being a state of suspended animation, (Eccl 9:5, 10) rather than an invisible part of humans going to destinations unknown....death is not permanent if Jesus brings all the dead back to life. The only ones missing will be those who defied God and his Christ in this world’s final judgment.
In this judgment period, we determine our own destiny by what we accept as truth.....and it is our heart that determines what path we will be found on. (Matt 7:13-14: 21-23) Travelling with the majority might seem safe, but according to Jesus it is the wrong road.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)
The best I can come up with is, frying billions for eternity is a qualification right there.Ooopps, I guess many are unable to tell the difference between qualifying actions. The insistence on taring God with attributes of a monster, screams mental and emotional instability.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
I recently gave a study on Christ's words from Luke 12
12:46 then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unfaithful Lk 12:45–46.
Do you know where the idea of being “cut in two” comes from?
Don’t worry, it’s not meant literally, as Jack might think, but it is still quite serious.
Can you read Jeremiah 34 to see the application of the Law from Exodus 21:1–11, Deuteronomy 15:12–18 - If yourve comes this far would you like to see how Christ fulfilled that law in Psalm 40 and Hebrews 10?
See how you go!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
My issues are not with Jesus fulfilling the law. My issues are with those who misrepresent God.....when Jesus, whose purpose was to reveal the fullness of God, is saddled with the attitudes and dispositions of sinful man as in the case of extracting revenge (eternal frying) on those who oppose him.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Said with respect, I’m not interested in your opinions, only in what is real and true. I can tell that you don’t understand Jeremiah 34 or Luke 12, and I believe you’re aware of this, yet you continue to hold to your own false reality while ignoring the one actually presented. This doesn’t mean I disagree with your point, only that a deeper and weightier understanding is available to you, one you’ve consistently chosen to ignore.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
If he weren’t so focused on intellectual posturing, he might actually have the opportunity to dig deeper and explore the mind of God. But that isn’t what’s happening here...and you know it. But your analogy of the saw was surprisingly on point, considering the Old Testament practice of cutting animals in two! I doubt that was intentional.
You could try it again but don't give him assignments as if he has asked you to teach him.
You were posturing as well.
Are you familiar with exaggerated language in the Bible? (to make a point)
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
This is a rather long, but interesting, citation about the restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah, Ammon and Moab, Elam, Egypt and Edom. The bit about Edom is most interesting. It discusses the use of exaggerated language (to make a point) in biblical literature. Meaning, it is not to be taken literally.
The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Ezekiel 16:53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,
The restoration of Ammon and Moab Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Jeremiah 25:22, 27 21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Jeremiah 49:6 “Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,” declares the Lord. Jeremiah 48:4, 47 4 Moab will be broken; her little ones will cry out. 47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab in days to come,” declares the Lord. Here ends the judgment on Moab.
The restoration of Elam Jeremiah 25:25, 27 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Jeremiah 49:39 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam in days to come,” declares the Lord.
The restoration of Egypt
Jeremiah 25:19, 27 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Ezekiel 29:13-14 “‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. 14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.
The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)
Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
--- COMPARE ---
Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Don't overlook this bit.
The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. Where Is Edom Today: Uncovering Its Modern Location - Architecture Adrenaline
Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
--- COMPARE ---
Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
The Word of God is our teacher. Why do you both seem uncomfortable letting it lead? It’s unbelievable. I’ve given four references that clearly teach the same message, yet your response is… what, exactly - don't allow Him to speak?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I have asked you to make your point on the scriptures you've quoted ie, Jeremiah 34 and Luke 12.
Your side stepping and decoying only makes me conclude you have no point.
--- PARODY ---
Christian #1: I’m not interested in your opinions.
Christian #2: What are you interested in?
Christian #1: The truth.
Christian #2: Aren't there opinions about the truth?
Christian #1: I want chapter and verse.
Christian #2: Do you own a Bible Commentary?
Christian #1: Of course I do.
Christian #2: Isn't that a book of opinions about the Bible?
Christian #1: They are theological experts.
Christian #2: Giving their opinions.
Christian #1: The theological experts have earned my trust.
Christian #2: Well, that's only your opinion. Right?
Christian #1: I’m not interested in your opinions.
Christian #2: What are you interested in?
Christian #1: The truth.
Christian #2: Aren't there opinions about the truth?
Christian #1: I want chapter and verse.
Christian #2: Do you own a Bible Commentary?
Christian #1: Of course I do.
Christian #2: Isn't that a book of opinions about the Bible?
Christian #1: They are theological experts.
Christian #2: Giving their opinions.
Christian #1: The theological experts have earned my trust.
Christian #2: Well, that's only your opinion. Right?
Yes, in a manner of speaking. He doesn't have just one gear. Much like we humans who are made in His image don't have just one gear to apply the same in every circumstance.
And He must stay true to His character......He is Who He is..."I am that I am". We have been well warned that what He is, is a consuming fire, and that He doesn't change - as well as can be merciful where He chooses. Those who are not hid and sheltered in the cleft of the Rock at His coming in the end will simply be consumed in His unveiled fire/glory. "No man can see God and live"...unless they be sheltered in the Rock which is Christ.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
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