Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

Are there any scriptures that declare one must believe in the trinity doctrine to gain salvation?

Nice signature line!

 

[GodsGrace]

No, that is the saving grace.
For the first 3 centuries there were two schools of thought. That there were Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit, 3 Gods or the Belief that there were 2 Gods and the Holy Spirit was not a God but the Spirit of Yahweh.
It was not until the 4th century that the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity was forced on Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church.

Come on GH.....
The church never taught that there are 3 Gods.

The church always taught that there is only One God...
as indeed there is.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Because God tells you he is,was,Jesus.

Yahweh said no such words in the bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

Come on GH.....
The church never taught that there are 3 Gods.

The church always taught that there is only One God...
as indeed there is.

The scriptures taught that there was one unique Supreme God. The Apostles referred to Yahweh as the one God and Yeshua as Lord. They made the distinction for a reasons.

And I have supplied over a hundred scriptures that proves that three God were well represented in the Gospels, working together to save mankind.

The meaning of Scriptures or completely nullify them. False beliefs program the mind with a meaning shifter......



They have eyes but they cannot see, they have ears but they cannot hear.

The eyes read that Yeshua sits on the right hand of the Father and the mind shifter says that scripture is meaningless.


Site is messed up.....when I reply it is like you are replying.

 

[Grailhunter]

@GodsGrace
Site is messed up, when I reply it changes it to you are replying

The scriptures taught that there was one unique Supreme God. The Apostles referred to Yahweh as the one God and Yeshua as Lord. They made the distinction for a reasons.

And I have supplied over a hundred scriptures that proves that three God were well represented in the Gospels, working together to save mankind.

FALSE BELIEFS ARE VERY POWERFUL AND PROGRAM THE MIND WITH A MIND SHIFTER THAT CHANGES THE MEANING.

The meaning of Scriptures or completely nullify them. False beliefs program the mind with a meaning shifter......

They have eyes but they cannot see, they have ears but they cannot hear.

The eyes read that Yeshua sits on the right hand of the Father and the mind shifter says that scripture is meaningless.

The eyes read that Yeshua says My Father in Heaven 50 times and the mind shifter says Yeshua is His own Father.

Site is messed up....
The eyes read that Yahweh said this is my son that I am well pleased then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua is pleased with Himself.

The eyes read that Yeshua prayed to Yahweh in the garden then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua was praying to Himself.

The eyes read that Yeshua was talking to Yahweh about the oneness concept then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that this detailed explanation means nothing.

The eyes read that Yeshua said that Yahweh is His God then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua is His own God.

The eyes read that Yeshua ascended to the Father then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua ascended to Himself.

etc

 

[mailmandan]

I have to keep repeating this:

This thread is NOT about soteriology.
It is NOT about what one must do to be saved.
One cannot believe that the Trinity is correct theology and still be saved.

The question is:
Are there prerequisites to being defined as Christian?

I'd say the top 3 are:
Belief that Jesus is God
thus
Belief in the Trinity
The resurrection of both Jesus and all persons, eventually.

How certain folks can strip Christ of His divinity and rob Him of His glory is beyond me. John 1:1-14 declares that "the Word was God" and "the Word became flesh," identifying Jesus as both divine and human. In John 8:24, Jesus said, "If you do not believe that I Am, you will die in your sins."

In John 8:56-59, we read that the Jews asked Jesus if He has seen Abraham and Jesus responded by saying, ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I AM. The Jews clearly understood that Jesus was declaring that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in  Exodus 3:14.

In Romans 10:9, we read - If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". This verse connects salvation to believing Jesus is "Lord" (a title of deity) and believing in his resurrection, which is a central claim of Christian doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

As previously discussed, the term "Christian" has a wider range of meaning and usage today than in the 1st Century.

Too bad, isn't it?
It should mean exactly what it meant in the first century.

What if being an American means something different 200 years from now?
It will have lost all its meaning...
this is where Christianity is headed, but, of course, it's of no concern to you since you don't believe there's any meaning to it at all...except maybe to believe in Jesus is some way, whatever that way may be.

As far as my fellowship is concerned, the answer is Yes. We do not have an open fellowship.

But Christianity is NOT an open fellowship....

Why is YOUR fellowship not open?
Perhaps because it expects those that join to agree with its statement of faith?

One can become Christian....God's plan is open to all.

He could be Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, JW,,,whatever -
But if he wants to be known as Christian...he SHOULD believe in what Christians believe.

I have never studied any of these writers. One of my brethren has, and he paints a different picture to what you have presented.

What PICTURE did I paint, Trevor?
I posted what they stated.
Do you not even believe what persons state?
Perhaps I neglected to AGAIN post what they stated?
Should I post it again?

Do you not believe that the Apostles taught other persons before they died?
Please explain what picture I painted that you cannot agree with.

Also I have a book by an author who has extensively studied this subject, and he definitely also disagrees with your position. My understanding is based on the OT and NT teaching and I do respect the help received from a few teachers in the 1800's and that continued up until the present time.

What position of mine does your writer disagree with?
Do you believe every writer agrees with every other writer?
THIS is exactly why there's a problem in the church today.
We learn from WRITERS instead of the Apostles, Paul, Peter, John, all of them - and those they in turn taught.

For example, he received strong opposition from Alexander Campbell who believed in immortal souls and going to heaven when you die. Our pioneer taught that we return to the dust awaiting the resurrection when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom on the earth for the 1000 years.

This is nice that your pioneer believes in soul sleep.

Christianity believes that the soul and spirit go to be with God.
However, this is a doctrinal belief and has no bearing on a person being Christian or not being Christian.

We do not accept Modalism. We believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

In post no. 315, you made the following statement:

". Rather than helping the Trinitarian Jew our pioneer gave a clear exposition of the Bible teaching. This was issued later in his book Phanerosis and this subject was also later expanded in his first volume of his exposition on the Book of Revelation in 1861 when considering Revelation chapter 1. I agree in general with his expositions as being very helpful in understanding the subject as a whole, often referred to in our fellowship as God Manifestation."

I understood this to mean that you agree that God manifests Himself in different ways.
This is modulism and is a heresy.

God does NOT "manifest" Himself as different Persons.

Of necessity in its context, it reflects the teaching of Paul and Barnabas and as a result of their teaching and example the early believers at Antioch prospered.

OK
You cannot explain Acts 11.
We'll let it go.

My understanding of John 1:14 differs from yours then, especially on the teaching that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.

I'm not discussing the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER.
I'm discussing THE WORD.

John 1:1 THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:14 THE WORD BECAME FLESH.

However, you want to understand THE WORD,,,
it was WITH God
and it WAS God....

and then it became FLESH.

It was not CREATED,,,,because it was always with God and was always God.

I had to grow up first. We started courting when I was 19, and married when I was 23. We were able to purchase a small new house immediately when we were married. Joyce worked for six months and has not worked since. She did very well bringing up our four children. She was excellent at nursery rhymes and can repeat them from memory to this day. Both the husband and wife in the next generation in Australia have had to work to afford a house, and the present generation find home ownership almost impossible.

Yes sir.
Very similar lives.

 

[GodsGrace]

How certain folks can strip Christ of His divinity and rob Him of His glory is beyond me. John 1:1-14 declares that "the Word was God" and "the Word became flesh," identifying Jesus as both divine and human. In John 8:24, Jesus said, "If you do not believe that I Am, you will die in your sins."

Absolutely.
I've brought up John 1:1 and John 1:14 a few times.
I don't know what could be more clear.
THE WORD was WITH God and was GOD....
then THE WORD became FLESH.
THE WORD ALWAYS existed.


I AM
The name of God...which literally, in Greek, means
I was
I am
I will be

In John 8:56-59, we read that the Jews asked Jesus if He has seen Abraham and Jesus responded by saying, ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I AM. The Jews clearly understood that Jesus was declaring that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in  Exodus 3:14.

Yes sir.

Also this:

John 10:30-33
30 "I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


The Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because He declared Himself to be God.
This was blasphemy...punished by death by stoning.

In Romans 10:9, we read - If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". This verse connects salvation to believing Jesus is "Lord" (a title of deity) and believing in his resurrection, which is a central claim of Christian doctrine.

Right.
Jesus being God.... thus the Trinity
and
Jesus' resurrection are the main tenets of Christianity.

So many other verses:
WHOEVER HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER.
THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA -REFERRING TO BOTH YAHWEH AND YESHUA
MY LORD AND MY GOD (THOMAS)
JESUS WILL JUDGE (ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE)
and so many more.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Yahweh said no such words in the bible.

That's untrue.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace
Site is messed up, when I reply it changes it to you are replying

FALSE BELIEFS ARE VERY POWERFUL AND PROGRAM THE MIND WITH A MIND SHIFTER THAT CHANGES THE MEANING.



Site is messed up....
The eyes read that Yahweh said this is my son that I am well pleased then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua is pleased with Himself.

The eyes read that Yeshua prayed to Yahweh in the garden then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua was praying to Himself.

The eyes read that Yeshua was talking to Yahweh about the oneness concept then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that this detailed explanation means nothing.

The eyes read that Yeshua said that Yahweh is His God then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua is His own God.

The eyes read that Yeshua ascended to the Father then it goes through the mind shifter and comes out that Yeshua ascended to Himself.

etc

You also posted something that looks like one of my posts, but which I would never say...
so yes, there's something wrong. I tried to fix it but couldn't....

As to the mind sifter....
There's no mind sifter GH.
We all study and we all have gone to maybe a few different denominations...
and we all have a brain to think and come to a conclusion.

Yeshua prayed to Yahweh.
One PERSON praying to another PERSON.

God sent The Son into the world. (John 3:16)
So THE FATHER cannot be the same Person as THE SON.
They are 2 distinct Persons.

The Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world... (John 14:26)
so the Holy Spirit must be a different Person than Yahweh or Yeshua.

At the baptism of Jesus ALL THREE of the Persons were present: (John 1:10)
THE FATHER
THE SON
THE HOLY SPIRIT
and yet the entire bible declares that there is only ONE God.

John 1:18 tells us that no one has ever seen God, but that the only begotten Son is in the bossom of the Father....
speaking of two different Persons.

Jesus went to the cross...not the Father.

Each person has their particular function....
but they each have the same nature and will...
they are all 3 eternal and of the same substance/essence.
There was never a time when one of the 3 did not exist.

Any dialogue between the Father and Son, for example, shows that they are distinct PERSONS.
Jesus was not speaking to Himself.

Matthew 17:5
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

John 11:41
41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.


So I understand what you believe....
each one is GOD....

But the way YOU understand is stating that each one is A GOD....
thus creating 3 Gods when the bible insists that there is only one.


Person, related to the Trinity is just the understanding of the difference between I and YOU....
a distinct subject since God would be I and Jesus would be YOU (to God Father).

Each Person has a distinct consciousness but are of the same nature and essence.

Essence is WHAT you are....
Person is WHO you are....

God is one WHAT
but three WHOS.

 

[GodsGrace]

@CTK

Just remembered.
I checked out God's letter to Daniel at the beginning of some chapters.
It's a great idea! It makes it very personal and one could learn alot just from what is written
in the "letter" regarding the nature of God.

It would be my prayer that many of your book get sold.

Some persons have such spiritual insight into God's word.
This has always amazed me.
There's a Catholic theologian who writes books that are like this...Hahn.
CS Lewis, another one.

Some are too spiritual
Some are too factual
Some are just right !

 

[MonoBiblical]

That's untrue.

There is a mistranslated verse in Hebrew[s inside the NT], but Yahweh didn't say. I know how the Greek was itself mistranslated. And this would be the only quotation you would have.

 

[Grailhunter]

It should mean exactly what it meant in the first century.

What exactly do you think it meant in the 1st century?
I don't think you would like it.

 

[GodsGrace]

What exactly do you think it meant in the 1st century?
I don't think you would like it.

MY LORD AND MY GOD
Thomas

OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR
Titus 2:13 ?

The Jews were going to stone Him....for blaspheming, claiming to be God.

This was the first century.

 

[Grailhunter]

You also posted something that looks like one of my posts, but which I would never say...
so yes, there's something wrong. I tried to fix it but couldn't....

As to the mind sifter....
There's no mind sifter GH.
We all study and we all have gone to maybe a few different denominations...
and we all have a brain to think and come to a conclusion.

Yeshua prayed to Yahweh.
One PERSON praying to another PERSON.

God sent The Son into the world. (John 3:16)
So THE FATHER cannot be the same Person as THE SON.
They are 2 distinct Persons.

The Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world... (John 14:26)
so the Holy Spirit must be a different Person than Yahweh or Yeshua.

At the baptism of Jesus ALL THREE of the Persons were present: (John 1:10)
THE FATHER
THE SON
THE HOLY SPIRIT
and yet the entire bible declares that there is only ONE God.

John 1:18 tells us that no one has ever seen God, but that the only begotten Son is in the bossom of the Father....
speaking of two different Persons.

Jesus went to the cross...not the Father.

Each person has their particular function....
but they each have the same nature and will...
they are all 3 eternal and of the same substance/essence.
There was never a time when one of the 3 did not exist.

Any dialogue between the Father and Son, for example, shows that they are distinct PERSONS.
Jesus was not speaking to Himself.

Matthew 17:5
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

John 11:41
41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.


So I understand what you believe....
each one is GOD....

But the way YOU understand is stating that each one is A GOD....
thus creating 3 Gods when the bible insists that there is only one.


Person, related to the Trinity is just the understanding of the difference between I and YOU....
a distinct subject since God would be I and Jesus would be YOU (to God Father).

Each Person has a distinct consciousness but are of the same nature and essence.

Essence is WHAT you are....
Person is WHO you are....

God is one WHAT
but three WHOS.

There is definitely a mind shifter.
Anyone that believes in the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity has this mind shifter....over a hundred scriptures that go through the shifter from what they read to what they think it means.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Jews were going to stone Him....for blaspheming, claiming to be God.

You will not find this statement from Christ in the scriptures. Mind shifter at work.

 

[Grailhunter]

The name of God...which literally, in Greek, means

???????

In the 1st century there were two distinct Christian groups.....Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians which believed differently and practiced Christianity differently and they did not get along. By the time of the Ecumenical Councils there were several beliefs going on. For one thing they had no Bibles....They could not study the scriptures like we can.

 

[GodsGrace]

???????

In the 1st century there were two distinct Christian groups.....Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians which believed differently and practiced Christianity differently and by the time of the Ecumenical Councils there were several beliefs going on. For one thing they had no Bibles....They could not study the scriptures like we can.

Tomorrow...
Past midnight here.
Why the question marks?

 

[Grailhunter]

Tomorrow...
Past midnight here.
Why the question marks?

I am in Greek?

 

[CTK]

@CTK

Just remembered.
I checked out God's letter to Daniel at the beginning of some chapters.
It's a great idea! It makes it very personal and one could learn alot just from what is written
in the "letter" regarding the nature of God.

It would be my prayer that many of your book get sold.

Some persons have such spiritual insight into God's word.
This has always amazed me.
There's a Catholic theologian who writes books that are like this...Hahn.
CS Lewis, another one.

Some are too spiritual
Some are too factual
Some are just right !

That is very kind of you !!!! I hope you will find it interesting enough to read through it… I would greatly welcome your thoughts and opinions!

Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving! Best wishes always, Charlie