Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[Hiddenthings]

Our self conscience is a result of the fall. Before the fall Adam and Eve didn't even realize they were naked.

A condition that still exists to this day.

 

[quietthinker]

I wonder if it speaking to the condition of the lost - alluding to seeking the wrong mountain/rock to cover them.....instead of finding shelter in the cleft of the true Rock/mountain of Christ:

interesting observation

And how are they "wrongly perceiving" that God is wrathful, when His wrath is spoken of and warned about all through the bible......and the horrific events of what happened to Israel in 70AD is even an example and warning to us? And just look around at this world, if any have eyes to see.........the consequences (judgments) of sin and iniquity are seen constantly and everywhere. How do you understand these scriptures below:

The nature of God's wrath is described in Romans 1:18-32. It defines it as 'giving them over'. In other words, he leaves them to the consequences of their choices. Insist on a rebellious path and you will destroy yourself.

An example is Judas. His insistence on stealing from the common purse (even while he was given the ability to heal the sick) ultimately resulted in his inability to believe he could be forgiven. Being in torment he confessed his error and took the money back but he couldn't believe he would be forgiven and suicide was preferable.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I have been clear about the fact that the three biblical doctrines of the final judgment are contradictory.
But here are some that indicate all being saved in the end.


Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matthew 18:11 NKJV
For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

You make me laugh Stevens - you really do!

“A decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be taxed.” Luke 2:1

Really? All the World should be taxed? Wow, I wonder if history records such an event?

I could go back and forth with you all day, but it would only make you look more foolish than you already do. Since you refuse to learn the simple contextual meaning of ‘all,’ you remain deceived.

You see, it’s simply a bad hermeneutical starting point, your bias runs roughshod over the text without considering the nuances being applied.

Your post is like a teacher dragging their nails down a chalkboard, truly unbearable.

 

[quietthinker]

I wonder if it speaking to the condition of the lost - alluding to seeking the wrong mountain/rock to cover them.....instead of finding shelter in the cleft of the true Rock/mountain of Christ:

Isa 30:1-3

Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.

And how are they "wrongly perceiving" that God is wrathful, when His wrath is spoken of and warned about all through the bible......and the horrific events of what happened to Israel in 70AD is even an example and warning to us? And just look around at this world, if any have eyes to see.........the consequences (judgments) of sin and iniquity are seen constantly and everywhere. How do you understand these scriptures below:

Luk 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom 13:5
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1Th 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Going over your list again Lizbeth (quite a list I must say)....applying the principle of (as previously stated) 'God giving them over', fits well.
I work from the premise of God being those qualities listed in 1 Corinthians 13 and the description of God given in 1 John 1:5

I see Jesus in his dying moments forgiving his torturers and executioners....even though they were oblivious and uninterested in the kindness extended. These soldiers will no doubt go home and be abusive to their wives and children. PTSD in modern lingo.

This kindness of Jesus in his last agonising moments draws me close with a desire to have the same disposition.

 

[Hiddenthings]

interesting observation

The nature of God's wrath is described in Romans 1:18-32. It defines it as 'giving them over'. In other words, he leaves them to the consequences of their choices. Insist on a rebellious path and you will destroy yourself.

A similar situation happened in Jeremiah 34

34:20 I will hand them over to their enemies who want to kill them. Their dead bodies will become food for the birds and the wild animals. 34:21 I will also hand King Zedekiah of Judah and his officials over to their enemies who want to kill them. I will hand them over to the army of the king of Babylon, even though they have temporarily withdrawn from attacking you. 34:22 For I, the Lord, affirm that I will soon give the order and bring them back to this city. They will fight against it and capture it and burn it down. I will also make the towns of Judah desolate so that there will be no one living in them.” ’ ” Je 34:20–22.

A message of doom was delivered as the Babylonian army advanced southward. Jeremiah declared:

[1] Jerusalem will not escape: vv. 1-7.
[2] The reason for its inevitable fall: it has broken its oath: vv. 8-11.
[3] ‘You have defiled My Name,’ says Yahweh: vv. 12-16.
[4] Therefore, I proclaim liberty to the sword to bring destruction upon you: vv. 17-20.
[5] Zedekiah and Jerusalem are doomed: vv. 21-22.

Note: The siege began in the 9th year of King Zedekiah, on the 10th day of the 10th month. This revelation came a bit later, during the period between the lifting of the siege and Nebuchadnezzar’s return (Jer 37:5). The prophecy specifically threatened the king, which enraged him so much that he had the prophet imprisoned (Jer 32:2-5). This imprisonment was partly due to the king’s refusal to release Jeremiah, as he had already been confined by Shelemiah. Zedekiah had made a late attempt to save the nation by renewing the covenant with Yahweh, but there was no sincerity in it. He had already broken his promise to Nebuchadnezzar (Ezek 17:13) and was now trying to deceive Yahweh as well.

Do you have issue with these events and how they unfolded?

@Lizbeth, the problem with these two is that they can't reconcile God's decisions with their own false teachings. They also fail to engage with the Word of God on a deep enough level for it to penetrate the self-made fortresses in their minds

Freedom to the sword!

 

[shepherdsword]

A condition that still exists to this day.

yes sir, maybe we all share in this to some degree

Rv 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I guess it's better to be wretched and miserable and know that to be so and not know it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

yes sir, maybe we all share in this to some degree

Rv 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I guess it's better to be wretched and miserable and know that to be so and not know it.

Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, and perform many mighty works in your name?’ Many may also say, ‘Are You not the God who died for me on the cross as my substitute?’ Many will not want to hear his answer!

 

[shepherdsword]

Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, and perform many mighty works in your name?’ Many may also say, ‘Are You not the God who died for me on the cross as my substitute?’ Many will not want to hear his answer!

It's always the other guy who is deceived. Very few consider it could be themselves that are in deception. You can usually pick these type of people out...they are always ready to throw others under the bus. Jesus spoke of them.

Lk 18:9-14
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Selfishness can be good thing when it is self-defense. It is not longer a proof of total depravity.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It's always the other guy who is deceived. Very few consider it could be themselves that are in deception. You can usually pick these type of people out...they are always ready to throw others under the bus. Jesus spoke of them.

Lk 18:9-14
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You think I despise you? Perhaps you weren’t reading my posts with understanding. Calling someone a Pharisee is stepping out onto a very flimsy limb. Maybe try again...

 

[Hiddenthings]

Selfishness can be good thing when it is self-defense. It is not longer a proof of total depravity.

Not all selfish actions are sinful.

 

[quietthinker]

Oh no, desperation time is a slow train coming!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Oh no, desperation time is a slow train coming!

Ha, interacting with you is like watching a train approach from afar, hoping it carries something of value…

The idea of ‘freedom to the sword’ clearly didn’t register with you at all, as if Jeremiah 34 never existed.

At the very least, watching you wrestle with these truths is entertaining.

 

[shepherdsword]

You think I despise you? Perhaps you weren’t reading my posts with understanding. Calling someone a Pharisee is stepping out onto a very flimsy limb. Maybe try again...

You think more highly of yourself than is warranted. You call me blind because I refuse to acknowledge some self presumed profundity in your posts. You call yourself "HiddenThings" but the hidden thing from you is wisdom. If you had any you wouldn't hurl accusations based on a few internet posts. Maybe you think you have the ability to see a person's past present and future based on one statement?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You think more highly of yourself than is warranted. You call me blind because I refuse to acknowledge some self presumed profundity in your posts. You call yourself "HiddenThings" but the hidden thing from you is wisdom. If you had any you wouldn't hurl accusations based on a few internet posts. Maybe you think you have the ability to see a person's past present and future based on one statement?

It all started with a careless remark implying that God could die.

It’s a paradox you neither grasp nor can explain, though no doubt you’ll pretend otherwise.

And so, we come full circle.

 

[shepherdsword]

It all started with a careless remark implying that God could die.

It’s a paradox you neither grasp nor can explain, though no doubt you’ll pretend otherwise.

And so, we come full circle.

I don't presume to understand all mysteries like some who arrogantly pretend they do. However, I do know this.
Jesus Christ was God manifested in the Flesh
He died upon the cross for the sins of man
He was resurrected the third day.

Do you disagree with any of those simple points?

 

[quietthinker]

Ha, interacting with you is like watching a train approach from afar, hoping it carries something of value…

The idea of ‘freedom to the sword’ clearly didn’t register with you at all, as if Jeremiah 34 never existed.

At the very least, watching you wrestle with these truths is entertaining.

Like I said Hidden, slow train coming. I remind you, because your name sake .......staring you in the face yet not comprehended.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I don't presume to understand all mysteries like some who arrogantly pretend they do. However, I do know this.

So quick to raise the mystery?

Jesus Christ was God manifested in the Flesh

Correct.

He died upon the cross for the sins of man

Jesus did you mean?

He was resurrected the third day.

Jesus was raised by God you mean?

Do you disagree with any of those simple points?

If you insist on clinging to mysteries, we cannot reach agreement. Ultimately, you cannot discern the Godhead as revealed in the Word of God, relying instead on man-made creeds. You approach this from the position of being unable to know what has already been fully revealed and understood by the Apostles, which renders our discussion futile.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Like I said Hidden, slow train coming. I remind you, because your name sake .......staring you in the face yet not comprehended.

I just wish you had more to offer quiet.

 

[quietthinker]

I just wish you had more to offer quiet.

yes, a tacit admission of the inability to see!