Is it possible to lose salvation?

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Christian Soldier

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Salvation is by miracles, not works.
OK, so why don't you reveal which gospel you believe in. All professing Christians hold to one of two gospels. The two are poles apart and they are mutually exclusive, so you can't mix them together to create a hybrid version.

The most popular version is the "saved by works" version, but hose who believe this version will never co0me out of the closet and reveal it. Then there is the One which the Lord Jesus proclaimed, that being the "saved by grace" as found in the bible.
 

MonoBiblical

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OK, so why don't you reveal which gospel you believe in. All professing Christians hold to one of two gospels. The two are poles apart and they are mutually exclusive, so you can't mix them together to create a hybrid version.

The most popular version is the "saved by works" version, but hose who believe this version will never co0me out of the closet and reveal it. Then there is the One which the Lord Jesus proclaimed, that being the "saved by grace" as found in the bible.
I believe in trust the 4 fold gospel which includes Luke-Acts. The gospel is no longer good news though.

Edit: better
 
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GodsGrace

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OK, so why don't you reveal which gospel you believe in. All professing Christians hold to one of two gospels. The two are poles apart and they are mutually exclusive, so you can't mix them together to create a hybrid version.

The most popular version is the "saved by works" version, but hose who believe this version will never co0me out of the closet and reveal it. Then there is the One which the Lord Jesus proclaimed, that being the "saved by grace" as found in the bible.
Let's see if this can be clear:

NO ONE IS SAVED BY THEIR WORKS.

No Christian believes a person can be saved by their works.

FAITH...BELIEF IN GOD IS A MUST.

There is only ONE gospel....

BTW,,,I've asked you several times...WHAT is the gospel in calvinist theology?
WHAT is the good news?

I don't see any.

Since you believe God does the choosing...HOW do you proclaim to anyone the good news of the gospel?
HOW do you tell them to believe in Jesus and they will be saved?

You cannot.
In reformed theology there is no gospel...
there is no good news.
 

Christian Soldier

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2 Peter 1:10 Your verse....
How does one make their call and election sure IF it's God that will make him persevere till the end because he is an "elected" one?

In your belief system,,,don't you believe that you WILL persevere till the end?
Salvation originates with God's sovereign choice and call (election) and is not earned by human works.

2 Peter 1:10 "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure."

This verse encourages believers to live in a way that confirms the genuine nature of their salvation, not as a way to earn salvation.

Only the elect of God persevere to the end, because our perseverance is not dependant on us , but it's dependant on God, who can not fail to bring us home safely.

Those who rely on their own good works, wisdom and ability to persevere will most surely fall away because they were never of us, meaning they were not chosen for salvation by God.
 
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GodsGrace

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This verse is definitely talking about a supernatural event.
If you mean the grace of God...
It IS supernatural event.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a supernatural event.

2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
Since with a favor we are the ones saved through a trust, and the other such (masc antecendent in grk, σεσῳσμένοι) not from us rather of the God a gift.

WITH A FAVOR....is a way of saying THE GRACE OF GOD.

THROUGH A TRUST...is a way of saying FAITH...one who has faith, trusts.

NOT FROM US RATHER OF THE GOD A GIFT.....we cannot save ourselves, but are saved through the favor of God through trust (in Him).


You're restating exactly what Ephesians 2:8 states.
No difference.

Unless you can point it out, of course.
Verse 5 preps 8;
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Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead (i.e ones becoming corpses) in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
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Ephesians 2:5 Interlinear
2:5 καὶ ὄντας ἡμᾶς νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν συνεζωοποίησεν τῷ Χριστῷ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι

τοῖς παραπτώμασιν = with blunders, in this case.

We are not as lucky.
How does verse 5 have anything to do with Israel?

Paul is speaking to the saints who are at Ephesus...
those who are faithful to Christ.

Ephesians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
 

GodsGrace

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Salvation originates with God's sovereign choice and call (election) and is not earned by human works.

2 Peter 1:10 "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure."


This verse encourages believers to live in a way that confirms the genuine nature of their salvation, not as a way to earn salvation.

Only the elect of God persevere to the end, because our perseverance is not dependant on us , but it's dependant on God, who can not fail to bring us home safely.

Those who rely on their own good works, wisdom and ability to persevere will most surely fall away because they were never of us, meaning they were not chosen for salvation by God.
I agree with your statements.
They're absolutely true.

Would you agree that we must BELIEVE IN God
and obey Him in order to be saved?

I believe you'll reply YES.
So we agree.

Here is where we do not agree:
You stated:
"Salvation originates with God's sovereign choice and call (election) "

We are indeed God's elect.
The problem here is HOW we become God's elect.

I don't read anywhere that God chose us TO SALVATION....
I DO read that the NT teaches HOW we are saved and for what PURPOSE.
 

MonoBiblical

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If you mean the grace of God...
It IS supernatural event.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a supernatural event.



WITH A FAVOR....is a way of saying THE GRACE OF GOD.

THROUGH A TRUST...is a way of saying FAITH...one who has faith, trusts.

NOT FROM US RATHER OF THE GOD A GIFT.....we cannot save ourselves, but are saved through the favor of God through trust (in Him).


You're restating exactly what Ephesians 2:8 states.
No difference.

Unless you can point it out, of course.

How does verse 5 have anything to do with Israel?

Paul is speaking to the saints who are at Ephesus...
those who are faithful to Christ.

Ephesians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
God works have merit, but they are not supernatural. Righteous people die not because they are sinners, but because Adam and Eve disobeyed, and gained eyesight by doing it.

[Act 26:8 KJV] 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
26:8 τί ἄπιστον κρίνεται παρ᾽ ὑμῖν εἰ ὁ θεὸς νεκροὺς ἐγείρει
ἐγείρω means to awake or maybe activate. It is used [about] dying people who are close to the afterlife.

It is used against the Sadducees in the synoptics where Jesus describes the dead as having become angels.
 

Christian Soldier

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OK, so why don't you reveal which gospel you believe in. All professing Christians hold to one of two gospels. The two are poles apart and they are mutually exclusive, so you can't mix them together to create a hybrid version.

The most popular version is the "saved by works" version, but hose who believe this version will never co0me out of the closet and reveal it. Then there is the One which the Lord Jesus proclaimed, that being the "saved by grace" as found in the bible.

Let's see if this can be clear:

NO ONE IS SAVED BY THEIR WORKS.

No Christian believes a person can be saved by their works.

FAITH...BELIEF IN GOD IS A MUST.

There is only ONE gospel....

BTW,,,I've asked you several times...WHAT is the gospel in calvinist theology?
WHAT is the good news?

I don't see any.

Since you believe God does the choosing...HOW do you proclaim to anyone the good news of the gospel?
HOW do you tell them to believe in Jesus and they will be saved?

You cannot.
In reformed theology there is no gospel...
there is no good news.
Where did you get the idea that the gospel is good news???

The truth is that the gospel, is the worst possible news to most professing Christians. Where's the good news in hearing "depart from Me, into the everlasting fire" This is what most professing Christians will hear, Jesus confirms that few will be saved. Many will come to Him on that day saying "Lord Lord, haven't we done good works???

When we go door knocking, in our outreach ministry, we find most professing Christians don't even know the fundamental truths of the gospel. They are self deluded, and they think they will fool God and sneak into heaven.

I don't know anything about "calvinist theology" I'm too busy studying Biblical theology.

I do know that there is no good news in Reformed theology for the unbelievers, sharing the gospel with them is like asking them to breath in the stench of a rotting corpse, they absolutely hate it, but it has a sweet smelling aroma to Gods elect.
 

Christian Soldier

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I agree with your statements.
They're absolutely true.

Would you agree that we must BELIEVE IN God
and obey Him in order to be saved?

I believe you'll reply YES.
So we agree.

Here is where we do not agree:
You stated:
"Salvation originates with God's sovereign choice and call (election) "

We are indeed God's elect.
The problem here is HOW we become God's elect.

I don't read anywhere that God chose us TO SALVATION....
I DO read that the NT teaches HOW we are saved and for what PURPOSE.
In order to believe in God you must first receive the gift of faith, which God only gives to His elect. Then you must receive the gift of repentance, then you must receive the gift of a new Spirit, then you must receive the gift of obedience, then you must receive the gift of transformation, then you must receive the gift of perseverance, then you must receive many other gifts to make you conform to the image of the Lord Jesus.

Before you can receive any of these gifts, you must first be dead in your sin and utterly helpless and hopeless and unable to do anything other than stink like a corpse. And God has to do the all the work of salvation, from start to finish.
If you try to contribute anything to earn your salvation, then it is an abomination in Gods sight and you need to repent of it.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord,
because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which part of "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation" don't you understand??????????????

 

JLB

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no, that can't be true because I have given you scriptures which confirm that 'election" only refers to salvation.

But it is true.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


  • of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God.


The children of Israel from Abraham and Isaac were to be the bloodline lineage of the Messiah, thus the Jews are referred as God’s chosen people.


And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:10-11



However, this election was for the purpose of being the generational bloodline lineage of the Messiah who was to be the promise God gave to Abraham, that “in him” that is to say, the Seed within Abraham would be the blessing for all nations.

as it is written

…I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


The contextual framework of Romans 9 is about election for purpose not election for salvation.


Salvation is by grace through faith, not election.
 

Christian Soldier

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But it is true.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5


  • of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God.


The children of Israel from Abraham and Isaac were to be the bloodline lineage of the Messiah, thus the Jews are referred as God’s chosen people.


And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:10-11



However, this election was for the purpose of being the generational bloodline lineage of the Messiah who was to be the promise God gave to Abraham, that “in him” that is to say, the Seed within Abraham would be the blessing for all nations.

as it is written

…I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


The contextual framework of Romans 9 is about election for purpose not election for salvation.


Salvation is by grace through faith, not election.
No, that's all wrong, because every single person who has or ever will be saved was determined before time began. So salvation is by election first, those who God chose to save before time began, are given the gifts of grace and faith to cash in on the promise.

There is no getting around the truth of the gospel, that election and predestination onto salvation is the heart of the gospel. These are not negotiable, many have tried to get around the doctrine of Gods absolute sovereignty in all things, especially the most important thing of all and that being salvation from eternal torment in hell.
 

LoveYeshua

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No. If it was, then you weren't saved from your sins to begin with.
Yes, a person can turn away after receiving God’s gift. Jesus Himself warns about this many times. He speaks of people who believe for a while but later fall away when trouble comes, like in the parable of the sower in Luke 8:13. He also says plainly that a branch in Him that does not continue to bear fruit will be cut off, as in John 15:2 and again in John 15:6 where He says that anyone who does not remain in Him is thrown out.

Jesus never teaches automatic security. He teaches faithful obedience and remaining in Him. Salvation is real, but it can be lost if a person chooses to turn back. Jesus’ own words make this clear.
 

Rudometkin

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Yes, a person can turn away after receiving God’s gift. Jesus Himself warns about this many times. He speaks of people who believe for a while but later fall away when trouble comes, like in the parable of the sower in Luke 8:13. He also says plainly that a branch in Him that does not continue to bear fruit will be cut off, as in John 15:2 and again in John 15:6 where He says that anyone who does not remain in Him is thrown out.

Jesus never teaches automatic security. He teaches faithful obedience and remaining in Him. Salvation is real, but it can be lost if a person chooses to turn back. Jesus’ own words make this clear.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [John 10:27-29]

Jesus says no man can pluck His sheep out of His hand. But you say His sheep can pluck themselves out of His hand, as if they aren't also men.

Jesus says they will never perish. But you say they can.


For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [Philippians 2:13]

Even if someone were to pluck himself out of the Lord's hand, which is impossible, it would be the Lord who stopped the work in them, since not even their faithfulness is from themselves.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. [Ephesians 1:13-14]

You are misunderstood to believe believers aren't sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Salvation is of the Lord - and it is promised to those who believe on Him.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [1 John 2:19]
 

JLB

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No, that's all wrong, because every single person who has or ever will be saved was determined before time began. So salvation is by election first, those who God chose to save before time began, are given the gifts of grace and faith to cash in on the promise.

There is no getting around the truth of the gospel, that election and predestination onto salvation is the heart of the gospel. These are not negotiable, many have tried to get around the doctrine of Gods absolute sovereignty in all things, especially the most important thing of all and that being salvation from eternal torment in hell.

No where in scripture does it say anything about being elected or predestined to salvation.

Only those who believe are saved.
 
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LoveYeshua

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My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [John 10:27-29]

Jesus says no man can pluck His sheep out of His hand. But you say His sheep can pluck themselves out of His hand, as if they aren't also men.

Jesus says they will never perish. But you say they can.


For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [Philippians 2:13]

Even if someone were to pluck himself out of the Lord's hand, which is impossible, it would be the Lord who stopped the work in them, since not even their faithfulness is from themselves.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. [Ephesians 1:13-14]

You are misunderstood to believe believers aren't sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Salvation is of the Lord - and it is promised to those who believe on Him.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [1 John 2:19]
Did jesus contradict himself? Assuredly, He did not. there are more examples in the O.P. here are a few more;

Revelation 3:5 (NKJV)
“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
This clearly shows a name can be blotted out. That means a person can lose their place.

Revelation 2:10–11 (NKJV)
“Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life… He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”
Jesus says the reward is for those who remain faithful until the end. If not, they can face the second death.

Revelation 22:14–15 (NKJV)
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life… But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers…”
This shows some enter, others are left outside.

Revelation 21:7–8 (NKJV)
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things… But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable… shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire.”
Again, some overcome and are saved, others are rejected.

simply believing is not enough;

1. The verse about devils believing and trembling (disciple of Jesus)
James 2:19 (NKJV)

“You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!”
This shows that belief by itself does not save, because even demons believe.

belief alone is not enough and that obedience is required.

2. Jesus says calling Him “Lord” is not enough
Matthew 7:21 (NKJV)

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
He makes it clear that belief without obedience will not save.

3. Jesus asks why people call Him Lord but do not obey
Luke 6:46 (NKJV)

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?”
He shows that faith must be lived out.

4. Jesus says true disciples must continue in His word
John 8:31 (NKJV)

“If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.”
Believing is the beginning, but continuing in His teaching is required.

5. Jesus says love is shown by obedience
John 14:15 (NKJV)

“If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
Again, belief alone is not enough.

People do not read their bibles, it is why they believe in eternal security once they believe. When you believe in Christ it implies to listen to his words and put his teachings in practice. to good use.
 

Christian Soldier

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No where in scripture does it say anything about being elected or predestined to salvation.

Only those who believe are saved.
I showed you verses of scripture which clearly say that only those whom God elected (before time began) are predestined onto salvation. You can't accept what God has said, as it obviously goes against you denomination's bias. I place Gods Word above anything religious denominations teach, you obviously don't.
 
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GodsGrace

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Salvation originates with God's sovereign choice and call (election) and is not earned by human works.

2 Peter 1:10 "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure."


This verse encourages believers to live in a way that confirms the genuine nature of their salvation, not as a way to earn salvation.

Only the elect of God persevere to the end, because our perseverance is not dependant on us , but it's dependant on God, who can not fail to bring us home safely.

Those who rely on their own good works, wisdom and ability to persevere will most surely fall away because they were never of us, meaning they were not chosen for salvation by God.
I'll repeat my question:
IF God chooses WHO will be saved....
and YOU believe that they will persevere till the end....
WHY do we ned to make sure of our calling?
 

GodsGrace

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Where did you get the idea that the gospel is good news???
Gospel literally means GOOD NEWS.

Gospel means "good news" or "good story" and originates from the Greek word euangélion and the Old English word godspel. In a religious context, it refers to the "good news" of Jesus Christ,
source: Gemini


The truth is that the gospel, is the worst possible news to most professing Christians.
The gospel is the good news that anyone who so wishes can be saved unto eternal life.

When we preach the good news to someone, we tell them that they can choose to live eternity with God.

The problem here CS...is that in reformed/calvinist theology there is no good news...
only the bad news that a person CANNOT decide for God and save himself.

Where's the good news in hearing "depart from Me, into the everlasting fire" This is what most professing Christians will hear, Jesus confirms that few will be saved. Many will come to Him on that day saying "Lord Lord, haven't we done good works???
They might have done some good works.....
but Jesus states why they will not be saved.....just keep reading - the bible answers all questions.

Matthew 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART
FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Good works will not save us,,,but belief in Jesus - which will include good behavior as HE taught.
When we go door knocking, in our outreach ministry, we find most professing Christians don't even know the fundamental truths of the gospel. They are self deluded, and they think they will fool God and sneak into heaven.
But YOU and I DO know the gospel.
And it is the following good news:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Acts 16:31
31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,



I don't know anything about "calvinist theology" I'm too busy studying Biblical theology.
You post the Calvinist belief system....
so you can consider yourself a calvinist.



I do know that there is no good news in Reformed theology for the unbelievers, sharing the gospel with them is like asking them to breath in the stench of a rotting corpse, they absolutely hate it, but it has a sweet smelling aroma to Gods elect.
How sad.
We should be preaching the gospel to unbelievers so as to give them the opportunity to be saved.

Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Mark 16:15

Paul said:
Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.



The gospel is the power of God for salvation.
It is the good news.