Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[quietthinker]

I agree, but for now, your actions have exposed what you're truly focused on, and it’s not a sincere pursuit of truth. Instead, it seems you're twisting Scripture for your own benefit. If you had truly approached the Word with sincerity, it would be evident, not just the clever one-liners you are so skillful in giving.

Turn it any way you want Hidden, what can not be escaped from is that slow train coming.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Turn it any way you want Hidden, what can not be escaped from is that slow train coming.

You have a Bob Dylan song

 

[quietthinker]

You have a Bob Dylan song

I'm reminded of Jesus words, 'the days are coming when those who kill you will think they are offering God service'
So I ask myself, mahhhh, what are a few misrepresentations of my posts.....it's just noise in an attempt to make folk feel better in their own skin......nothing in comparison.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I'm reminded of Jesus words, 'the days are coming when those who kill you will think they are offering God service'
So I ask myself, mahhhh, what are a few misrepresentations of my posts.....it's just noise in an attempt to make folk feel better in their own skin......nothing in comparison.

Playing the victim is weak, and frankly, I’ve lost interest in your meaningless ramblings. You’ve shown you have nothing to contribute to this thread except your fixation with a Dylan song.

 

[Lizbeth]

interesting observation

The nature of God's wrath is described in Romans 1:18-32. It defines it as 'giving them over'. In other words, he leaves them to the consequences of their choices. Insist on a rebellious path and you will destroy yourself.

An example is Judas. His insistence on stealing from the common purse (even while he was given the ability to heal the sick) ultimately resulted in his inability to believe he could be forgiven. Being in torment he confessed his error and took the money back but he couldn't believe he would be forgiven and suicide was preferable.

I believe Judas is an example of what scripture warns about....someone who having tasted the powers of the world to come, still chose to fall, and couldn't be restored to repentance. Are you saying in the end the whole lost world is going to try and commit mass suicide? Is that what scripture teaches? God does preside over the wrath that this world lies under currently...much of it involving "natural" consequences so to speak, but this is not the same as His wrath poured out in the end, only tastes of it in hopes that mankind would be warned and learn......but then there comes the end of the world, the "day" that God has appointed to finally judge it:

Mat 13:36-43

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Behold the restoration of all things…..this above is what the restoration looks like. It is the Lord gathering out (REMOVING) and burning/destroying all who are not of Him and everything that is not of Him. (His kingdom that He rules includes the world that He created without sin.) In the end He will rid the earth of all who do iniquity and all the sinful and vain works of mankind. Only what can survive His consuming fire will remain. He will “shake everything that can be shaken until only what can’t be shaken remains.” Only what is spiritual/heavenly/glorified/renewed will remain.....that's why the children of the kingdom will remain and inherit eternal life and a renewed/new earth, but the children of the wicked one as this parable is indicating and warning, clearly will not remain/inherit eternal life, because they are not hid/sheltered in the cleft of the Rock, which is Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

Us "mere folks"?
Why do Christians minimize the importance of humankind. As if we are maggots under God's boot heel.
Acknowledge that "the Lord is God and far greater"? The god you describe is far less than "what" (again with the demeaning) he created.

Perhaps you and @quietthinker would kindly respond to the Romans 9:13-24 scriptures I posted, instead of ignoring them. page 12, post #239. Thanks.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen.. There seems to be two evils in the land these days brother. One is that governments/judicial systems are trying to be the church in showing mercy, and the church is being involved in government trying to be a law maker and enforcer. Things are mixed up......governments are supposed to punish evil-doers and the church is supposed to be merciful, not the other way around.

What has happened when this occurs . GO to and behold the crusades
the times later when also men had tied govt to church . THEY USED govt TO ENFORCE even death
UPON those they considered an enemy .
Soon all who are considered enemy of the inclusive god of the broad love path
WILL Indeed be called upon by even the merged religoins for to be put to death by govt .
People act like there is something new under the sun , when indeed there is not .
As with Jerusalem of old so too with much of christendom .
And we have seen ages of great ecumenical cries that in time led to NAUGHT but crusades
to be used against any and against all that did not conform .
THIS was done also by PROTESTANTS too , as well as BY THE RCC .
Always men do try and blend the heavenly and the earthern , and always IT works only to their own demise
and always Into only great rebellion against EVEN GOD it goes .

 

[amigo de christo]

Perhaps you and @quietthinker would kindly respond to the Romans 9:13-24 scriptures I posted, instead of ignoring them. page 12, post #239. Thanks.

On those feet sister , the LORD is our hope and our salvation . We shall POINT to HIM . Yes indeed dear sister .
For vain is the help of man .

 

[amigo de christo]

Playing the victim is weak, and frankly, I’ve lost interest in your meaningless ramblings. You’ve shown you have nothing to contribute to this thread except your fixation with a Dylan song.

Many now play and many now use the victim card , or as its known to the church , the judge not correct not card .
but it is merely because they cannot over come the words of THE TRUTH that is spoken
and thus must run and hide and give themselves a covering by which to hide and to accuse
those who bring truth as being , OPPRESIVE , JUDMENTAL , HATEFUL , haters and etc .
THEY cannot withstand the truth
SO they play the card against those who do speak the truth which does expose the darkness .
Just a friendly reminder for us all .
I dont heed too or pander to their cards . LET the Truth be spoken and he who forbears its on them
and unto he who hears and repents , THEN AMEN . But TRUTH will not be si lenced by their cards .
Now to the trenches my friend and my friends .

 

[Wrangler]

Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

This question combines the fallacies of Strawman, Circular Reasoning and False Alternative.

1. Your question is a Strawman because using the term "tyrannical" is an inappropriate juxtaposition to magnanimity. The Biblical counterpoint to Grace is Justice, not tyranny.

What do you mean by the word "tyranny," anyway? As far as using the term "tyranny" to mean oppressed; that is another manifestation of the Original Sin, where we seek equality with our sovereign Creator. Said differently, your question usurps the divine right of kings, not merely appointed by God (let alone applying it to God, Himself), but exclusive authority to determine what the law is, what tyranny is.

AND "tyranny" only applies to those acting outside the law for those bound by the law. In legal jurisprudence, the applicable concept is jurisdiction. A law in another land does not apply to one not in that land. God is outside both the heaven and Earth he created. Therefore, there is no jurisdiction for which any law would apply. There is no there, there.

God most certainly is NOT bound by the law as he is the law giver, the source of the law. It's his universe; we only live in it. It's his way or the highway. This is not tyranny but absolute justice and divine order.

2. Your question begs the question of defining the law independent of the king's determination of just what the law is. Said differently, God alone gets to decide what is tyrannical about his Creation - not you, a mere creature of his making and for his purpose.

In human history, King John agreed at the point of a sword to be subject to the law pursuant to the Magna Carta. Before then, the concept of a tyrannical king, acting outside the law had no application since the king alone dictated the law. This is the sole prerogative of the king and it is treason to suppose anyone else is entitled to make such declarations.

3. Your question is also a False Alternative because God's devotion to justice does not mean God is not also magnanimous. God's nature is both, filled with grace AND divine justice. It's not a human way of thinking. Isaiah 55:8-9.

To judge God as tyrannical is to put oneself in the judgement seat of God! Not a very humble presumption is it? Who is worthy of judging his Creator justly? More to the point, who has authority to judge the Creator of the Universe? The clay does not demand from the Potter. Your question reveals no understanding of either Original Sin, Isaiah 45:8-10, the entire Book of Job, James 4:11-12 or logic! Meditate on it.

Questions:
- Is God known for showing kindness and forgiveness?
- Is God known for overlooking insults and not seeking revenge? (revenge is a sin)
- Is God easily offended? (a hothead)
- Does God repay evil with good? (as we are expected to)

These Strawman questions are one-sided.

1. Does God love justice? Psalm 37:28
2. Does Judgement Day punish sin? Malachi 4:1
3. Is the Lake of Fire an instrument of justice? Revelation 20:14
4. Why would God appoint Jesus to judge the world IF justice was irrelevant to divine order? Matthew 25:32; John 5:22; Acts 17:31
5. Why would God tell us to do justice IF all that mattered was being magnanimous? Micah 6:8

The LORD God has told us
what is right and what he demands:
“See that justice is done

By contrast, there is no command for us to be magnanimous. What does that tell you?

 

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps you and @quietthinker would kindly respond to the Romans 9:13-24 scriptures I posted, instead of ignoring them. page 12, post #239. Thanks.

Where did you get the idea that your scriptures supersede mine?
I have been very clear that the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement are all contradictory.
I forget whether you favor Damnationism (the forever burning hell) or Annihilationism. (the wicked are destroyed)
But both of those are contradictory as well.

 

[Jack]

Where did you get the idea that your scriptures supersede mine?

Maybe because you said "no wonder I don't trust the Bible"?

I have been very clear that the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement are all contradictory.

And that's your unBiblical opinion.

I forget whether you favor Damnationism (the forever burning hell) or Annihilationism. (the wicked are destroyed)
But both of those are contradictory as well.

No Christian would believe someone who doesn't trust the Bible!

 

[Marvelloustime]

What has happened when this occurs . GO to and behold the crusades
the times later when also men had tied govt to church . THEY USED govt TO ENFORCE even death
UPON those they considered an enemy .
Soon all who are considered enemy of the inclusive god of the broad love path
WILL Indeed be called upon by even the merged religoins for to be put to death by govt .
People act like there is something new under the sun , when indeed there is not .
As with Jerusalem of old so too with much of christendom .
And we have seen ages of great ecumenical cries that in time led to NAUGHT but crusades
to be used against any and against all that did not conform .
THIS was done also by PROTESTANTS too , as well as BY THE RCC .
Always men do try and blend the heavenly and the earthern , and always IT works only to their own demise
and always Into only great rebellion against EVEN GOD it goes .

@amigo de christo

 

[Jack]

God most certainly is NOT bound by the law as he is the law giver, the source of the law. It's his universe; we only live in it. It's his way or the highway. This is not tyranny but absolute justice and divine order.

BINGO!

 

[Wrangler]

Today's devotional reading is not magnanimous but justice. Rev 14:9-11
“Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

 

[Wrangler]

Are you saying in the end the whole lost world is going to try and commit mass suicide? ... involving "natural" consequences so to speak, but this is not the same as His wrath poured out in the end

I've come to accept natural consequences of death IS God's wrath poured out. This is the default path for humanity.

By definition, a miracle is divine interference in the natural, physical laws of the universe that God established from the beginning. The path to avoid death is miraculous. God paved this miraculous path through Jesus. However, it is up to us to accept the miraculous blessing through faith. Faith completes the holy circuit.

I was reading the other day about Jesus command to abide in him. This command is only given because we have the natural capacity to NOT abide in him. Faith is not equivalent to belief; even the demons believe in God. It is only through our actions that what we truly believe is revealed. The following contradictions and like lip service will not breach the gates of heaven:

1. I believe in God BUT ... fornicate at every chance.
2. I believe in God BUT ... say hateful, hurtful things at the slightest provocation.
3. I believe in God BUT ... won't forgive those who owe me a debt.
4. I believe in God BUT ... treat the rich, powerful and famous better than wretched souls who can give me nothing I value.
5. I believe in God BUT ... regularly get drunk and lose self-control at nearly every temptation.
6. I believe in God BUT ... can only really love people who meet all my terms, conditions and expectations and as soon as they don't, my love for them is withdrawn.
7. I ask God for forgiveness in theory - BUT in practice, I am convinced any and all of my sins are justified, e.g., can't be held accountable for my sins as I'm really an innocent victim.
8. I accept Jesus as my lord who frees me in theory - BUT in practice, I am the enslaving lord of my life, where I give into my passions, prejudices and emotions without restraint or remorse.

 

[St. SteVen]

I've come to accept natural consequences of death IS God's wrath poured out. This is the default path for humanity.

- If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he chose to confuse his followers with the Bible and isn't omnibenevolent.
- If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, then he failed to realize his followers would be confused by the Bible and isn't omniscient.
- If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then he knew the Bible would confuse his followers but he couldn't do any better, then he isn't omnipotent.

 

[Jack]

- If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he chose to confuse his followers with the Bible and isn't omnibenevolent.
- If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, then he failed to realize his followers would be confused by the Bible and isn't omniscient.
- If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then he knew the Bible would confuse his followers but he couldn't do any better, then he isn't omnipotent.

Don't you ever get tired of attacking God of the Bible? There will be SEVERE consequences! God warned us many times whether you believe Him or not.

 

[Muna]

Are you referring to the smoking furnace and the burning lamp?

You stated

The terms of the covenant in Genesis 15, outlined in verses Jer 34:18-20, involve a solemn act where all parties must pass between the divided pieces of a sacrificed calf.

Yes with Abram, here I will highlight the smoking furnace with it

Genesis 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years

The furnace and the affliction shown

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

King Agag of the Amalekites met his death as a result of his disobedience to God’s command, which was carried out by the prophet Samuel.

Did you read the post correctly?

Exodus 17:13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

Exodus 17:15 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

To Saul he said,

1 Sam 15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

It was carried out by the Prophet Samuel because King Saul failed to execute his wrath and to do what was spoken of much earlier than what is shown in Samuel, but way back in Exodus

Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

 

[quietthinker]

interesting observation


I believe Judas is an example of what scripture warns about....someone who having tasted the powers of the world to come, still chose to fall, and couldn't be restored to repentance. Are you saying in the end the whole lost world is going to try and commit mass suicide? Is that what scripture teaches? God does preside over the wrath that this world lies under currently...much of it involving "natural" consequences so to speak, but this is not the same as His wrath poured out in the end, only tastes of it in hopes that mankind would be warned and learn......but then there comes the end of the world, the "day" that God has appointed to finally judge it:

Mat 13:36-43

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Behold the restoration of all things…..this above is what the restoration looks like. It is the Lord gathering out (REMOVING) and burning/destroying all who are not of Him and everything that is not of Him. (His kingdom that He rules includes the world that He created without sin.) In the end He will rid the earth of all who do iniquity and all the sinful and vain works of mankind. Only what can survive His consuming fire will remain. He will “shake everything that can be shaken until only what can’t be shaken remains.” Only what is spiritual/heavenly/glorified/renewed will remain.....that's why the children of the kingdom will remain and inherit eternal life and a renewed/new earth, but the children of the wicked one as this parable is indicating and warning, clearly will not remain/inherit eternal life, because they are not hid/sheltered in the cleft of the Rock, which is Christ.

God is not the killer/ destroyer. Deceived mankind who have believed their father, think they will get a better deal by lying, stealing, killing and destroying. (John 10:10) They will finally be mentally and emotionally bankrupt and will desire death to the torment of that realisation.

It is Satan who has turned the tables to make mankind believe it is God who controls and brings destruction. They have embraced the Yin/ Yang God of Persia......even some of the Prophets held this view.
It wasn't until Jesus came and made it clear that the active agency behind destruction is the Devil.