Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[Jack]

God is not the killer/ destroyer. Deceived mankind who have believed their father, think they will get a better deal by lying, stealing, killing and destroying. (John 10:10) They will finally be mentally and emotionally bankrupt and will desire death to the torment of that realisation.

It is Satan who has turned the tables to make mankind believe it is God who controls and brings destruction. They have embraced the Yin/ Yang God of Persia......even some of the Prophets held this view.
It wasn't until Jesus came and made it clear that the active agency behind destruction is the Devil.

But you clearly rejected God of the Bible. Why would a Christian believe you?

 

[quietthinker]

Perhaps you and @quietthinker would kindly respond to the Romans 9:13-24 scriptures I posted, instead of ignoring them. page 12, post #239. Thanks.

What is it about those scriptures that get your attention Lizbeth? Is it the idea that God kills and gives life, hates and loves?...arbitrarily?.....because he is the Boss?

 

[Jack]

What is it about those scriptures that get your attention Lizbeth? Is it the idea that God kills and gives life, hates and loves?...arbitrarily?.....because he is the Boss?

Attention QT! God is the Boss! He doesn't ask your permission about anything. He just does it.

 

[Muna]

God is not the killer/ destroyer.

There are places it shows the LORD killing or rejoicing to destroy someone though

1 Sam 35:28 And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Sam 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

Jerem 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

Jerem 28:17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.

Deut 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Deceived mankind who have believed their father, think they will get a better deal by lying, stealing, killing and destroying. (John 10:10) They will finally be mentally and emotionally bankrupt and will desire death to the torment of that realisation.

It is Satan who has turned the tables to make mankind believe it is God who controls and brings destruction. They have embraced the Yin/ Yang God of Persia......even some of the Prophets held this view.
It wasn't until Jesus came and made it clear that the active agency behind destruction is the Devil.

And as far as deceived go Job also said,

Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

And the LORD says here

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

And so similar to the above prophet when he had spoken a thing contrary to the former prophets we see the same

Jerem 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

Jerem 28:17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.

And so says,

...and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezek 14:9)

Satan had said unto the LORD concerning his own hand regarding Job

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And the LORD responded

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Shown both ways there

 

[Wrangler]

- If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he chose to confuse his followers with the Bible and isn't omnibenevolent.
- If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, then he failed to realize his followers would be confused by the Bible and isn't omniscient.
- If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then he knew the Bible would confuse his followers but he couldn't do any better, then he isn't omnipotent.

Oy vey! Your triad of dysfunction is something to unpack. Your whole line of thinking is deeply disturbing on many levels.

Preliminary observations:
A. I am struck at how unrelated your post is to mine. In other words, these 3 sentences that appear to possess logical form are unresponsive to my point. This reveals something profound about how your mind works, just seeking an opportunity to spew evil.

B. The set of if-then forms all point to blasphemous conclusions. How is your soul, my friend? It doesn't appear to be doing well.

C. I notice that you continue to assert your cultural bias onto the revealed word of God. Again, this is most peculiar insight into how your mind is functioning. God says X but you say -X, then conclude something negative about God rather than humility of the error of your ways.

1. With that said, let's start at the proper place, not with a sinful world view, a view hostile to God's word but accepting God's word as divinely revealed truth. What does God say about his own nature? Isaiah 45:7 (REV)

I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I am Yahweh who does all these things.​

God, himself says that he creates evil. So, where do you get the idea of imposing onto God the quality of being omnibenevolent? I never heard of such a thing.

2. That God is NOT omnibenevolent explains these verses. The only reason to fear God is because he may well bring evil, including our destruction.
2.1 Proverbs 9:10 (REV)

The fear of Yahweh is the starting point of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is the starting point of understanding.​

2.2 1 Kings 22:20

And the LORD said, ‘Who can entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead so he can be killed?’ “There were many suggestions,​

2.3 Jesus, Matthew 10:28

“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.​

​

2.4 Hebrews 10:31 (ESV)

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Care to offer an alternative explanation to make sense of these verses with your omnibenevolent presumption?

3. Regarding your 3 sentences that appear to possess logical form; syllogisms only work as a tool to determine truth when the premises are true. You presented false premises as point #2 shows, which lead to false conclusions. I say appear to posses logical form because they are not logical statements at all but impose a conclusion independent of the premises. Let's break it down.

- If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he chose to confuse his followers with the Bible and isn't omnibenevolent.

P1. God is omnipotent.
P2. God is omniscient.
C. God chose to confuse his followers ...

This so-called conclusion is not from the presented premises. It is a conclusion drawn from another set of supposed facts not in evidence. <sigh> I sense much divisiveness in you and will again pray for you, my friend.

 

[quietthinker]

There are places it shows the LORD killing or rejoicing to destroy someone though

1 Sam 35:28 And it came to pass about ten days after, that the LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

2 Sam 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

Jerem 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

Jerem 28:17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.

Deut 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.




And as far as deceived go Job also said,

Job 12:16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

And the LORD says here

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

And so similar to the above prophet when he had spoken a thing contrary to the former prophets we see the same

Jerem 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

Jerem 28:17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.

And so says,

...and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezek 14:9)

Satan had said unto the LORD concerning his own hand regarding Job

Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And the LORD responded

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Shown both ways there

Yes, I'm aware the scripture has these texts. The question I ask myself is, who is it that holds the trump card on how I am to perceive God's nature/ character?. The deciding factor is what the voice from the cloud on the Mt of Transfiguration told Peter, James and John.

Here they were, Jesus, Peter, James and John at the top of a mountain when Moses and Elijah (Law and Prophets) appeared talking with Jesus. What about? well, I don't really know but I can guess it might have been about the upcoming events in store for Jesus.
In any case, Peter was enamoured by the scene and shot his mouth off (as was his style) Matthew 17:1-6

THEN.....a voice spoke, This is my beloved Son, listen to him. ....ie, not Moses (the law) nor Elijah (the Prophets) but JESUS. (a voice, unpretentious, direct and concise) He is the one who represents me, my words, my character, my reality. Here you have God unmediated in Jesus. Jesus holds the trump card on all that has been previously mediated by men.

So I ask again, why? I conclude that even though God spoke to men in times past (Hebrews 1:1-2) Gods words were filtered through their faulty paradigms which clearly painted an inadequate picture of God. (the Prophets even have God approving and ordering genocide) So much for their faulty picture of God. (yes, men have embraced the yin/ yang God of the Persians all around the Earth....even 'the chosen' people insisted on this view. They were in error.

 

[Jack]

So I ask again, why? I conclude that even though God spoke to men in times past (Hebrews 1:1-2) Gods words were filtered through their faulty paradigms which clearly painted an inadequate picture of God. (the Prophets even have God approving and ordering genocide) So much for their faulty picture of God. (yes, men have embraced the yin/ yang God of the Persians all around the Earth....even 'the chosen' people insisted on this view. They were in error.

But you said you reject Hebrews. Remember?

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household,

 

[quietthinker]

But you clearly rejected God of the Bible. Why would a Christian believe you?

Jack, I have laboured with your insistence on misrepresentations and left field statements for a good while now. The relentless senseless repetition you engage on this matter has clinched the decision to leave you to them.

 

[Jack]

Jack, I have laboured with your insistence on misrepresentations and left field statements for a good while now. The relentless senseless repetition you engage on this matter has clinched the decision to leave you to them.

I will continue to defend the Bible every time I see you attack God of the Bible.

2 Peter 2:4-6
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

There may yet be hope for you.

Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

 

[St. SteVen]

Oy vey! Your triad of dysfunction is something to unpack. Your whole line of thinking is deeply disturbing on many levels.

Thanks. I been refining it over several years. - LOL

 

[Jack]

Thanks. I been refining it over several years. - LOL

Yeah.

1 Timothy 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

 

[Taken]

Not sure on some of these bro.

Answer;
1 Yes, I think he "is known for showing kindness or forgiveness."

2 ROM 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

3 A "hothead"? Don't know of a per se verse.

4 PSA 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.

Just some thoughts, for now.

Yes, vengeance belongs to God…
Because (unlike man), God Knows the Thoughts, Intents of men, and Repays men with JUST recompense;
Of man Against God…
Of man Against man.

Remember … Forgiveness is “given” for “asking,” and “Turning Away” from dubious, sinful ways…. Some men never ask or turn away.

Glory to God
Taken

 

[Hiddenthings]

God is not the killer/ destroyer. Deceived mankind who have believed their father, think they will get a better deal by lying, stealing, killing and destroying. (John 10:10) They will finally be mentally and emotionally bankrupt and will desire death to the torment of that realisation.

It is Satan who has turned the tables to make mankind believe it is God who controls and brings destruction. They have embraced the Yin/ Yang God of Persia......even some of the Prophets held this view.
It wasn't until Jesus came and made it clear that the active agency behind destruction is the Devil.

This is the embodiment of pure ignorance. It's actually pointless to even try correcting him, given the depth of his foolishness. The greatest death in this entire creation, before it even began was the planned death of His Son, foreshadowed by Abraham taking his son up the mountain, but ultimately fulfilled with the Father and Son who together conquered sin and death.

Here is the paradox dear readers!

Isaac being bound by His Father foreshadowed the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ; for although he was killed by "wicked hands," it was all part of "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23).

Two motives exercised in a single event.

Quiet & St. Stephen would attribute the actions of the "wicked hands" to a "righteous God" if they believed that God sacrificed His Son, but they do not, they cannot, grasp the full depth of spiritual significance in God raising His Son as a banner for all peoples to witness, the contrast between God's love and the wickedness of men is conflated by them because they know not God.

@Lizbeth @Wrangler @MonoBiblical – These two forum members have been promoting their universal salvation fallacies for quite some time, and one can’t help but wonder how and why they’ve been allowed such freedom. On the other hand, I find it equally disturbing when people believe that God will eternally torture the wicked while they themselves dwell in eternal bliss. They also know not God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, I'm aware the scripture has these texts.

It must be high up there in your lofty tower quiet!

@Truly, this was a weak response, especially considering you quoted sound Scripture. He consistently deflects, diverts, and distorts every post that challenges him.

Even the way he writes he has that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 feel about him!

Nabal serves as a clear example for obvious reasons!

But will you ever get him to even mention the word or story of Nabal?

It's a willing ignorance on a level I rarely see in forum discussions.

 

[Jack]

On the other hand, I find it equally disturbing when people believe that God will eternally torture the wicked while they themselves dwell in eternal bliss. They also know not God.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[St. SteVen]

This so-called conclusion is not from the presented premises. It is a conclusion drawn from another set of supposed facts not in evidence. <sigh> I sense much divisiveness in you and will again pray for you, my friend.

As if you have anything better to offer. You can have your tyrannical church-god. Believe or burn. (extortion)

 

[Hiddenthings]

Thanks. I been refining it over several years. - LOL

Your responses are just like Quiet's, when faced with the substance of @Wrangler's post, you couldn't engage with the content, so you resorted to your usual empty one-liners with a hint of sarcastic humor.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You are the extreme of quiet and St Steven - you just don't know it yet! You will!

 

[St. SteVen]

Your responses are just like Quiet's, when faced with the substance of @Wrangler's post, you couldn't engage with the content, so you resorted to your usual empty one-liners with a hint of sarcastic humor.

It looked like a lot of work that I have already done before. I've known @Wrangler for a long time. He just reappeared out of exile.

 

[Jack]

You are the extreme of quiet and St Steven - you just don't know it yet! You will!

And you will soon believe in eternal Hell Fire! Everybody will.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: