Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[ProDeo]

How is it that you understand this while Shepherd does not? The difference lies in approach: one reads the Bible openly and sees these plain truths, while the other comes with preconceived notions, causing the truth to remain hidden from them. Now apply this reality across all the core Bible teachings and you get what?

The Holy Spirit is often speaking as a PERSON, just do a Bible search.

 

[ProDeo]

Not the same application of "I am" as Jesus used in John 8. Although it could be considered insulting coming from a respectable source that wasn't so mislead, I would not stone you for it. I understand that you are only exalting your self presumed understanding over me and not declaring yourself God

Before Abraham was ......."I AM' (Then they took up stones to stone him)

And a few verses before :

John 8:27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am HE, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

The Jews understood what Jesus claimed, it's a mystery well versed Christians don't.

 

[ProDeo]

To keep this thread on track, let’s return to the point at hand:

As I recall, @quietthinker, you argued that God hands people over to their own lusts and devices, citing Romans 1.

And I assume you'd still agree with that.

However, when it was shown that God Himself orders destruction (as in Jeremiah 34), you had no response. You're quick with clever one-liners, but when it matters, you offer nothing of substance.

The issue, as I see it, is your limited capacity to engage with Scripture in ways that challenge your preconceived theological notions. When confronted with such challenges, you resort to empty ramblings rather than addressing the point directly.

If I'm wrong in my observations feel free to point them out honestly with your dismissive meaningless diversions.

If you can’t engage and all you see are 'slow trains,' just say so, and I’ll watch you pass by without stopping. toot toot!

Are you only here to win discussions with gaslighting and learn nothing ?

 

[ProDeo]

To understand God's goodness and severity in light of both His gracious nature and the judgment seen in passages like Jeremiah 34, we must balance His overwhelming mercy with His righteous justice.

In Jeremiah 34, the Israelites had entered into a covenant with God, agreeing to obey His commands, including the release of their Hebrew slaves in keeping with God’s law of freedom and justice (Leviticus 25:10, Deuteronomy 15:12-15). However, when the Israelites turned back on their word and re-enslaved those they had once set free, God’s judgment fell on them. Despite His promises of mercy, God could not overlook their disobedience and breach of covenant. His judgment was both severe and just, because they failed to honor their commitment to Him and to uphold the dignity of the oppressed.

God's Kindness: On one hand, God’s kindness, as seen in passages like Titus 3:4 and Ephesians 2:7, is undeserved. His grace humbles us, as He offers forgiveness, redemption, and freedom to those who repent. This is an incredible display of His goodness and patience, even when we repeatedly fail or turn away. The kindness of God is not earned, but is given freely to those who are broken and humble (contrite) themselves before Him.

God's Severity: On the other hand, God’s severity, His righteous judgment and discipline also reflects His holiness. In Jeremiah 34, His judgment was poured out because of the Israelites' disobedience. Despite their initial repentance and the covenant they made to release the slaves, they failed to keep their word, which was a violation of God’s justice and a direct rebellion against His commands. In this way, God's severity is a reminder that He will not allow sin to go unpunished, and He will bring justice to those who harm others, even when those others are powerless or oppressed.

What we see here is a balance: God’s goodness does not ignore sin, but rather, it is seen in His provision of mercy and forgiveness through Christ. God's severity, on the other hand, is not vindictive but righteous, a necessary response to sin and injustice. His judgment on Israel in Jeremiah 34 highlights the consequences of unfaithfulness to His covenant and commands.

Ultimately, both God's kindness and severity reveal His perfect character: His grace and mercy to those who repent and humble themselves before Him, and His justice and holiness in dealing with those who turn away from Him, break His commandments, or exploit others. Even in His judgments, God remains redemptive, knowing those who are His and capable of redeeming them, just as He did with the Gentiles and Israelites who repented and turned back to Him.

This dual aspect of God, His mercy and His justice helps us understand the full scope of His nature. His goodness invites us into relationship with Him, while His severity calls us to reverence, repentance, and faithfulness.

So is God Magnanimous?​

If we exclude God’s righteous judgments, as seen in passages like Jeremiah, then the answer would be no (and yes). God knows those who are His and those who are not. While His rejection of the unfaithful does not diminish His grace and mercy, it cannot imply universal salvation. If salvation were guaranteed for all, regardless of faith or obedience, then faith would no longer be meaningful, and obedience would lose its value.

"The Lord knows those who are His." 2 Tim 2:19 here Paul draws strength from this truth, echoing Moses' words during Korah’s rebellion in Numbers 16:26: "Depart from the tents of these wicked men," and God Himself brought judgment upon them.

Paul here encourages Timothy, even in the face of opposition, not to give in to despair or flee like a hireling. Despite the undermining of doctrine by men like Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17-18), the truth remains unshakable. Just as Moses trusted in God's timing and judgment, Paul reminds Timothy that God knows His people and will deal with the unfaithful in due time.

I see men like @quietthinker & @St. SteVen in the same way as Hymenaeus and Philetus, who sought to distort the message of God, there are those who attempt to pervert His character and His past and future judgments.

Do you think God's mercy is only for this life ?

 

[ProDeo]

- If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he chose to confuse his followers with the Bible and isn't omnibenevolent.
- If God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, then he failed to realize his followers would be confused by the Bible and isn't omniscient.
- If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then he knew the Bible would confuse his followers but he couldn't do any better, then he isn't omnipotent.

That's a wrong kind of reasoning, it comes down asking the right questions and doing so the answer may come by itself, isn't that so ?

Here is one, what is the origin of sin ?

Your turn.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Holy Spirit is often speaking as a PERSON, just do a Bible search.

Yes, it's called personification - its literally everywhere in the Bible.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you think God's mercy is only for this life ?

Depends on how you see mercy Pro.

For example, if mercy is understood as withholding punishment or restoring a relationship broken by sin, then no, mercy would not be necessary for the immortalized saints in whom God will dwell. Eternal beings will no longer have a sinful, mortal nature. God’s divine nature cannot sin, so in that state there would be no need for mercy.

But if we assume, for the sake of argument, the false teaching that divine angels can sin, and that your own eternal reward carries the same possibility, then yes, I can understand why you could believe you’d still need His mercy.

 

[St. SteVen]

BTW, you forgot to quote the IMO strongest evidence for Universalism :

Jes 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

Thanks.
I usually package that this way:


Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[St. SteVen]

Here is one, what is the origin of sin ?

The Logos.
It had always been part of the plan.
Coupled with redemption. (the solution)

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
All three biblical doctrines of the final judgement are in contradiction.
- the forever burning hell is in contradiction with Annihilationism. (the wicked destroyed)
- Both are in contradiction to all being saved. (universalism)

It's not rocket science.
Do those in hell burn forever or are they completely destroyed?
The Bible supports both views.

Not it's not rocket science at all........it's spiritual understanding, which as far as I can tell you don't seem to have any experience with. Are you born again? Have you received the Holy Spirit? or if you have, did you fall away?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
All three biblical doctrines of the final judgement are in contradiction.
- the forever burning hell is in contradiction with Annihilationism. (the wicked destroyed)
- Both are in contradiction to all being saved. (universalism)

It's not rocket science.
Do those in hell burn forever or are they completely destroyed?
The Bible supports both views.

Not it's not rocket science at all........it's spiritual understanding, which as far as I can tell you don't seem to have any experience with. Are you born again? Have you received the Holy Spirit? or if you have, did you fall away?

If you have spiritual understanding, if you have been born again, if you have received the Holy Spirit, then answer the question.

Do those in hell burn forever or are they completely destroyed?

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks.
I usually package that this way:


Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess when they see the Lord coming in all His glory with their own eyes, but it will be too late for them then. As someone else already pointed out, even the devil believes because he has seen the Lord, but it isn't doing him one lick of good is it? It will be the same for the children of the devil then. It has to be by FAITH to be saved (not by sight or one's own mental belief). Because faith is not of our own but is by His Spirit, and it is only His (Christ's) Spirit that shelters us from the wrath. He, His Spirit, is the cleft of the Rock. We must have God as our Father (begotten by Him), not the devil, because then the Lord will pity us as a father pitieth his own children and spares them.

It was too late for the rich man who died and ended up in hell and the story Jesus told about that, wasn't it. He sure did believe then and wanted to warn his brothers, but it was all too late for him, sadly.

What you have going on there is not the Christianity that Christ and the apostles taught. It is HUMANISM disguised and packaged to look like Christianity. We are told in scripture that God's ways and His thoughts are not man's ways and thoughts, they are much higher......and that the way that seemeth right to man leads to death.

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
All three biblical doctrines of the final judgement are in contradiction.
- the forever burning hell is in contradiction with Annihilationism. (the wicked destroyed)
- Both are in contradiction to all being saved. (universalism)

It's not rocket science.
Do those in hell burn forever or are they completely destroyed?
The Bible supports both views.

If you have spiritual understanding, if you have been born again, if you have received the Holy Spirit, then answer the question.

Do those in hell burn forever or are they completely destroyed?

What did Jesus say? He said to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell/gehenna/fire. Perdition means destruction. Elsewhere it talks about those who are "like the beasts that perish, meant to be taken and destroyed". It is either eternal life or no eternal life....no eternal life would seem to indicate one has an end, as all things temporal have an end. But as someone pointed out there is the aspect that God and the spiritual realm exists outside of time, so that might have a bearing from His vantage point.

 

[quietthinker]

The Logos.
It had always been part of the plan.
Coupled with redemption. (the solution)

I have the view that sin has no cause. According to 1 John, God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you think God wants servants or friends?

Why do you think it has to be one or the other? He wants friends who know their place, and who willingly/voluntarily serve Him because of knowing who He is.

 

[St. SteVen]

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess when they see the Lord coming in all His glory with their own eyes, but it will be too late for them then.

Like most, you missed the definition of "acknowledge".
(whole-heartedly, and without reservation)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[St. SteVen]

What did Jesus say? He said to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell/gehenna/fire. Perdition means destruction. Elsewhere it talks about those who are "like the beasts that perish, meant to be taken and destroyed". It is either eternal life or no eternal life....no eternal life would seem to indicate one has an end, as all things temporal have an end. But as someone pointed out there is the aspect that God and the spiritual realm exists outside of time, so that might have a bearing from His vantage point.

Okay, you are an Annihilationist then.
Your chosen doctrine is in contradiction with Damnationists, like @Jack
who believe in a forever burning hell.
Both doctrines are biblical and contradictory.
And also contradict Ultimate Redemption. (universalism)

 

[St. SteVen]

I have the view that sin has no cause. According to 1 John, God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

I agree.
I'm not saying that God CAUSED sin to happen, but that He ALLOWED it to happen. (free will)
Without sin there is no redemption. The whole plan was in the Logos.

 

[St. SteVen]

Not it's not rocket science at all........it's spiritual understanding, which as far as I can tell you don't seem to have any experience with. Are you born again? Have you received the Holy Spirit? or if you have, did you fall away?

Just because we are at odds over our doctrinal opinions
doesn't mean that I don't have spiritual understanding.
Nor does it mean that I haven't been born again or received the Holy Spirit.
The opinion of too many on this forum is that I am "lost".
Simply because I don't agree with their narrow views.

 

[Lizbeth]

Like most, you missed the definition of "acknowledge".
(whole-heartedly, and without reservation)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Oh for sure they will not have any doubts at all when that time comes, however, it will be too late for faith and to receive Christ because time will have run out. The coming of the Lord IS the judgment for unbelievers, and redemption for those who do believe. "Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe."