It was Herod. I don't know what Theodotian Daniel LXX says, but it does tell me not to believe the errors.
The Great Tribulation Began in 70AD and Continues to This Very Day
- Thread starter Exegesis
- Start date
-
- Tags
- great tribulation
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Apparently you are not strictly reading from the TRG- KJV, but rather from some of the other Greek texts, whereby many, many confounded English Bible versions are being produced from.
Because that prophesy is speaking of two different people, Jesus and Titus of Rome, we can know exactly which one God the Father would have His Saints to know about.
John 5
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
,
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
And the Scriptures also speak of satan, the fallen angels, mankind SINNING against God = the FLOOD
The Scriptures speak on many things and CHRIST is the Alpha and the Omega = Genesis to Revelation
The AOD is indeed the crucifixion of the Messiah. Without going into too much detail, because it would indeed be an extension narrative (chapter 9 narrative is based far the longest narrative in my Daniel commentary), but here are a few points to consider:
1) there is nothing in the history obey of man that could rise to a higher definition of an “abomination” than the crucifixion of Jesus,
2) most people contend it must refer to the destruction of the Temple- whether that be the 1st, 2nd, or a possible 3rd Temple in the future,
3) no, the first Temple was completely destroyed so that would not fit such a definition.,
4) Jesus had FULFILLED all the Levitical ceremonies- High Priest, King, sacrificial Lamb of God, the Temple… As found in Daniel, He had “done away” with all of them at His coming and the cross.
5) the 1st Temple was destroyed- but God would have it rebuilt before, AND have everything restored after the Babylonian destruction BECAUSE everything HAD to be restored BEFORE His arrival. And everything was restored by the end of the 69th week for Him to arrive in the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry and fulfill those Levitical positions. God would allow the Temple (1st) to be destroyed but not permanently. Only God would allow a permanent destruction and that would only come about AFTER ALL THE LEVITICAL purposes for being were fulfilled.
6) Jesus Himself, in both Matthew and Mark recorded Jesus’ words - mentioning Daniel’s prophecy - when you see the AOD “ standing in the holy place”.. let the reader understand (Jesus is telling His Apostles and everyone that will read the gospels to understand them s is speaking of Him).
In Matthew, he is writing his gospel to the Jews. Thus, Jesus will fulfill those things that a Jewish audience understands- Passover Lamb, High Priest, Temple, etc. So in Matthew, Jesus is telling them THIS AOD will be found STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE! Why? Because this is exactly where one would expect to find Jesus- as. Priest, as the Passover Lamb, etc.
But Mark is identifying the same scene but he is writing to a Gentile audience - he is writing about Jesus as a “Suffering Servant.- not a King or Priest. Thus, this AOD represents Jesus as a servant and notice that a servant dies not belong anywhere in the Holy Place. Therefore, In Mark, Jesus is heard saying, “ standing where He ought not be”- a servant has no place there.
7) Jesus is giving us no less than 2 ways to recognize how He will meet this AOD definition. No one or no other “thing” could meet these(and others) definition of the AOD.
7) also, what does the AOD cause?
Because the Jews rejected and crucified their Messiah, God would turn His face from them for the next 2000 years. He would make “desolate” His relationship with His people. This was their punishment. This is the same as “the times of the Gentiles.”
8) at the end of the “time of the Gentiles” (we are so, so close), God will remove the blindness from their eyes and they will recognize “the One they pierced.” For exactly 3.5 years they will go out into the world preaching the Goid News. Their teachings will expose just how corrupted His Word and His Testimony has been during the past 1500 years. This will cause the world to be turned upside down and create the most intense and violent time in our history. This is the period of great tribulation- everyone must make their choice on who to worship- the little horn or Jesus. Last opportunity before He returns in 3.5 years.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Ok, so let's stay on point as to WHAT the Holy Spirit is prophetically revealing about Jesus in Dan. 9:24-27.
By the way, did you know about "the six works of God"** that Jesus was to do and "finish"?
Rom. 9[28]
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
John 17
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 19
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
**It is all there in Dan. 9:24, and the results of that "finished" work is prophetically spoken of in the latter part of Dan. 9:27. We know of it as being the Day of Pentecost, which is still ongoing today.
Last edited:
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Concerning Christ the Scripture speaks of Him "finishing the works that His Father sent Him to do.
John 5:17 Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Romans 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
The "short work" was Christ going to the Cross and thereby making an "end of sin"
The "short work" that Paul speaks of is the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing a remnant of Jews & Gentiles into the Body of Christ.
This "short work" of the Holy Spirit culminates with the 2nd Coming of Christ = thus a "short work in the earth"
Pentecost is NOT mentioned nor prophesied in Daniel 9:27
The Day of Pentecost is the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit which BEGAN "the short work in the earth"
SHALOM
Last edited:
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
AGREE = Luke is Scripture
Notice that i did NOT deny the prophesy of Jerusalem being overrun and the temple destroyed by the Roman armies.
What i said is that this is not the Abomination of Desolation that is coming soon, even though a partial fulfillment occurred.
Please keep in mind that there are prophecies that repeat until all things are fulfilled.
SHALOM
There is only one Individual whom Daniel 9 identifies as a prince.
He is the Messiah the Prince in verse 25.
Messiah the Prince in verse 25 is the grammatical referent of the prince in verse 26 and "He" in verse 27.
He is the Prince who destroyed the city and sanctuary of and in Jerusalem.
He is the Prince who confirmed the New Covenant with many in Israel for one week.
He is the Prince who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease in the midst of the week by His Own Sacrifice at Calvary.
He is the One who made Jerusalem desolate.
Daniel 9:24-27 is all about Him.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Disagree
Agree with Scripture = Two princes AND a two-fold prophecy in verse 27
Prince #1 = The PRINCE of Righteousness
And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; = JESUS dies on the Cross, Rose on the 3rd Day and Ascended back to the FATHER
Prince #2
And the people of the prince who is to come = Roman soldiers/people of prince/Caesar
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Earburner
Well-Known Member
@CTK, I agree to all of your 7 points, but as to your last point, the 8th, I do not agree.
Since Daniel 9:24-27 is directly involved with the 3.5+3.5 = 7 years, aka in the midst of the week, Messiah is cut off, I would have you to understand that the 1st 3.5 years of Jesus' ministry was in the flesh, confirming the New covenant with his Disciples.
Now, since Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week, and NEVER DIED, except in his mortal flesh, we are TO KNOW that his Life in the Holy Spirit was immediate and functional. Therefore, Jesus FULFILLED the remaining 3.5 years (totaling 7) by confirming the New covenant with the early churches, of which Paul the Apostle was a direct and personal witness of Jesus doing so!!
Unfortunately, most of "church-ianity" has gone BLIND on this issue about the 70th week, and as a result many Protestant churches have "gone off the rails" and have "lost the plot" altogether about the book of Revelation.
Last edited:
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Unlike Matthew and Mark, Luke does not mention the AOD. Because Luke is wring his gospel to a different audience. Luke is writing to or speaking about the Messiah “as a man.” Therefore, there at least 2 things we might observe from his message;
1) he is not speaking to a Jew of Gentile but to ALL MANKIND. Meaning this crucifixion impacts ALL mankind. If one does not accept Jesus and the cross then we will see destruction
2) Luke’s destruction is pointing to the destruction in 70AD/ both people and Temples, institutions, everything will certainly come to an end at the end of time.
3) Luke does not connect the AOD to the crucifixion ONLY because he speaks of Jesus as “a man” and no man can destroy one’s salvation. Only God can.
4) many who do not believe find these, and many other statements made in the 4 Gospels as being redundant or contradictory. Thus, they use this as a weapon to not believe. But God gives us no less than 4 views to see Jesus- we can triangulate, if you will, and see Him from many sides - He imparts so much more information this way - thus, when you see Him through these 4 lenses, there is no other person that could meet these prophecies.
Part 1
Each interpretation ties the identity of the “prince” to a different Temple and time period, and from there, determines who “his people” must be. But is that the correct method? What if there is another, more faithful way to identify this “prince who is to come”?
Rather than starting with external speculation, we might begin by looking within the text itself. In Daniel 9, five key references use the terms Messiah, Messiah the Prince, or prince—and these offer powerful internal clues. By analyzing how Daniel and Gabriel use the word “prince” in this chapter, we may uncover the true identity of this figure—not by guessing at military history or end-time theories, but by following the inspired structure of the prophecy itself. We might now turn to those five references. They will help us determine who this prince truly is, and just who are “these people.”
1. Generic Use of “Prince” — Daniel 9:6 and 9:8
The first two references to “prince” appear early in Daniel’s prayer:
• “Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land (v.6)
• “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers...” (v.8)
These uses are generic, referring to rulers or leaders of Israel who had rebelled. Importantly, the Hebrew word nagiyd (נָגִיד) is not used here. These are not prophetic titles, nor are they references to specific individuals.
2. “Messiah the Prince” — Daniel 9:25
This is the key restorative reference in the prophecy. The text says:
• “Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks...” (v.25)
Here, the term “Messiah” (Anointed One) is joined with “Prince”, and this time the Hebrew word nagiyd is used. This is no ordinary prince. This is a divinely anointed figure—Jesus Christ—who appears at the conclusion of the sixty-nine weeks. The pairing of “Messiah” with “nagiyd” makes this identification unmistakable. This prince is not a political ruler or a typological stand-in. He is the Anointed One, the central figure of the prophecy.
3. “Messiah” (Alone) — Daniel 9:26
Just one verse later, the Messiah is mentioned again, and this is in the first destructive verse:
• “And after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.” (v.26)
Though the word “prince” is not repeated, this is clearly referring to the same individual from verse 25—the Messiah the Prince. He is “cut off,” signifying a violent death, but not for His own sins. This confirms that Jesus Christ remains the central figure as the prophecy transitions from restoration to consequence (restorative v. destructive verses).
4. “The Prince Who Is to Come” — Daniel 9:26
Now we come to the controversial phrase in the second destructive verse:
• “And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...” (v.26)
This is the only other instance in the chapter where the Hebrew word nagiyd to refer to the prince. However, the term "Messiah" is conspicuously absent.
Consequently, we observe that two verses in Daniel 9 (verses 6 and 8) use the term “prince” generically to describe rulers of Israel who failed to listen to the prophets—without the use of the Hebrew word nagiyd. In contrast, two other verses (9:25 and 9:26) clearly refer to Jesus, the Messiah. In 9:25 —a restorative verse— the title “Messiah the Prince” is used, and this time the Hebrew word nagiyd is explicitly attached, identifying Him as the Anointed Ruler. However, in 9:26—a destructive verse—we find a notable distinction: while the term “Messiah” is used, the word nagiyd is conspicuously absent. This omission appears intentional. It suggests that in this moment of sacrifice and judgment, God no longer refers to Jesus as “Messiah the Prince,” the royal restorer, as He did in the previous verse.
Instead, He is simply called “Messiah”—the One who has taken upon Himself the sins of the world. This shift in title reflects a change in divine perspective. In verse 25, the Messiah comes in royal authority to fulfill God’s redemptive plan. But in verse 26, He is portrayed not in His kingly role, but as the sacrificial Lamb—the Suffering Servant who is “cut off” for others, not for Himself. The absence of nagiyd highlights this moment of substitution, where the crown is laid down and the cross is taken up.
It is worth pausing to examine the language used in both the restorative and destructive portions of Daniel 9:24–27, especially the terms “city,” “sanctuary,” and “prince.” Subtle shifts in language reflect deep theological truths—how God views His people, His Temple, and even His own Son before and after the Messiah takes upon Himself the sin of the world.
In the restorative verse (Daniel 9:25), Gabriel uses proper names and titles: “Jerusalem” is mentioned explicitly, and Jesus is referred to as “Messiah the Prince” (using the Hebrew word nagiyd). These designations reflect divine favor, recognition, and purpose. The city is named. The Messiah is enthroned. These verses look forward to redemption, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the arrival of the Anointed One at the appointed time.
But in the destructive verse (Daniel 9:26), the tone shifts. Jerusalem is no longer named; it becomes “the city” and “the sanctuary.” And while Jesus is still identified as the “Messiah,” He is no longer called “the Prince (nagiyd).” The proper names and titles are withdrawn. This is not merely a literary variation—it reflects a change in God’s perspective, driven by the reality of rejection and sin.
Part 2
In 9:26, Jesus is described as being “cut off, but not for Himself”—a clear reference to His substitutionary death. At this point, God no longer addresses Him as “Messiah the Prince” but simply as “Messiah.” The title of royalty is withheld. Why? Because Jesus is no longer appearing in His role as the reigning Prince, but as the sacrificial Lamb, bearing the sins of the world. This mirrors what we see in the Gospels: Jesus, who once referred to the Temple as “My house” (Matthew 21:12–13), later declares in heartbreak: “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38). The shift from “My house” to “your house” is not semantic—it is judicial. It marks the removal of divine presence due to national rejection of the Messiah.
The phrase “the people of the prince who is to come” introduces another layer of complexity. In this verse, the word “prince” is again the Hebrew nagiyd, just as it was in 9:25. However, this time it is not paired with the word “Messiah.” This deliberate separation introduces a level of ambiguity. The identity of this “prince” is not as clearly defined as in 9:25 (“Messiah the Prince”), nor is it as generic as the rulers referenced earlier in verses 6 and 8 (which use a different Hebrew term).
If God had wanted to clearly differentiate this prince from the Messiah, He could have used the more common Hebrew word for ruler (as seen in 9:6 and 9:8). That would have left the door open for multiple interpretations—perhaps a foreign king, a military commander, or a generic figure of authority. On the other hand, if He wanted to reaffirm this prince as the Messiah, He could have once again included the title “Messiah” with nagiyd, as in 9:25. But instead, He does neither.
The use of nagiyd without “Messiah” appears intentional and meaningful. It distinguishes this prince from both the true Anointed One and from ordinary rulers. He is not a generic prince, nor is he identified as the Messiah. So who is he? Many scholars point to Titus, the Roman general who led the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, as a likely candidate. The following phrase in 9:26 states, “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Historically, this aligns with what happened under Titus’ command. His legions ravaged the city, razed the Temple, and slaughtered over a million Jews. In this view, Titus is the “prince,” and the Roman army is “his people.”
There is a strong precedent in Daniel for God using foreign rulers as instruments of judgment. Nebuchadnezzar was used to discipline Judah. Cyrus was used to overthrow Babylon. Alexander was used to dismantle corrupt empires. Titus, like these others, fits this divine pattern. From a physical and historical perspective, this interpretation is compelling. But prophecy often has layers—and verse 26 points to something deeper than military conquest.
The text does not say that the prince destroys the city—it says his people do. The destruction comes first, and the prince comes afterward to rule over those people. This suggests a delayed arrival, not someone who leads the destruction, but one who emerges from the aftermath of it. This opens the door to a more profound, spiritual fulfillment. This “prince who is to come” is not merely Titus. He is the same figure described in Daniel 8:10–12 and 8:23–25. He is the little horn—a powerful, blasphemous, deceptive force who rises out of the Roman world system and takes on a religious-political identity. He comes after the fall of Jerusalem and after the fall of pagan Rome (7:11).
From this perspective, the "people" (of Rome led by Titus) who destroyed the city become the foundation for the next great power—a spiritual counterfeit that claims the authority of Christ but works in opposition to Him. This aligns with Daniel’s three-phase prophetic structure after the cross:
• The people destroy the city and the sanctuary (70 AD).
• The prince who is to come rises later, emerging from among them – the little horn.
• He rules over their legacy—not by military conquest, but by spiritual authority.
This “prince” is not just a figure of history or speculation. He becomes the central antagonist in Daniel’s later visions: the little horn, the deceiver, the blasphemer, the one who opposes the true Prince of princes (Daniel 8:25). He represents the long arc of counterfeit religion and corrupted power that dominates until the return of Christ.
If anyone has an interest in my commentary on Daniel ... you can enter the following ISBN # (9798218637231) into Amazon. If you would like a free author's copy, please PM me with your mailing information and it will be sent directly from Amazon to you.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
All GOOD until you combined Messiah with the other prince.
There is a Prophetic REASON why the word "nagiyd" is applied to the Messiah and the "prince who is to come"
Your Mission, should you accept it, is to SEE why.
You will find a clue as to "why" in Daniel chapter 10
Let me know if you SEE
SHALOM
Earburner
Well-Known Member
You and I see many things in scripture alike.
However, on this particular issue of where to place the 70th week in time, I do vehemently inform you that it most definitely was during Jesus ministry on earth, 3.5 years in his mortal flesh, and then immediately after his resurrection, as Holy Spirit for the remaining 3.5 years. In both instances, he was confirming the New covenant to his disciples, and then by His Spirit, He was confirming the New covenant to the Early churches.
Please see my post #192 for additional precise info about Dan. 9:24-27.
You are determined to confound the plain issues of KJV prophetic scripture FULFILLED, so that you may continue foisting your own personal argument through numerous other biblical sources that support your view.
The latter part of KJV Dan. 9:27 clearly reveals the Day of Pentecost and onward.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The more closer we get to the Truth the more we SEE the Same GLORY of GOD = which is CHRIST
The Time of Jacob's troubles began when Christ was born. Israel had been given a 490 solar years period before Christ was born in which to repent of their sins and to stop sinning in the manner that they had been.
The time of Jacob's troubles will end at the end of this present age in around 20 years' time, after which God will begin gathering Israel back to himself and will enter into a covenant of peace with Israel which will last for 1,000 years.
The Great tribulation will begin when the Bottomless pit is unlocked and the imprisoned heavenly host entities, i.e. the beasts and Satan are released for a period of time, known as the little while period of around 24 years duration before the heavenly hosts are captured by Jesus and dispatched into the Lake of fire to never being see again on the face of the earth.
Shalom
The time of Jacob's troubles will end at the end of this present age in around 20 years' time, after which God will begin gathering Israel back to himself and will enter into a covenant of peace with Israel which will last for 1,000 years.
The Great tribulation will begin when the Bottomless pit is unlocked and the imprisoned heavenly host entities, i.e. the beasts and Satan are released for a period of time, known as the little while period of around 24 years duration before the heavenly hosts are captured by Jesus and dispatched into the Lake of fire to never being see again on the face of the earth.
Shalom
Similar threads
