The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.

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Hiddenthings

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Son of Perdition?
Which one? John 17:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Head shake!

@Wrangler @Lizbeth thought you both would find this of interest.

In Mark 14:4, some people were criticizing the woman for anointing Jesus with expensive ointment, saying, "Why this waste of expensive ointment?" The word used for "waste" in Greek here is ἀπώλεια (apoleia), which means "ruin," "loss," or "destruction." This same word is also used to describe Judas Iscariot in the Gospel of John, where Jesus refers to him as the "son of perdition" (John 17:12), meaning a person destined for destruction or ruin.

However, there’s a subtle difference in how the word is used in each context. In Mark 14:4, the "waste" refers to an opinion about the use of resources for Jesus, while in John 17:12, "son of perdition" is a much more specific term, pointing to spiritual or eternal ruin.

So, while the root word is the same, the use and implication in the two instances are different, but they do share the underlying meaning of waste, loss, or destruction.
 
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St. SteVen

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In Mark 14:4, some people were criticizing the woman for anointing Jesus with expensive ointment, saying, "Why this waste of expensive ointment?" The word used for "waste" in Greek here is ἀπώλεια (apoleia), which means "ruin," "loss," or "destruction." This same word is also used to describe Judas Iscariot in the Gospel of John, where Jesus refers to him as the "son of perdition" (John 17:12), meaning a person destined for destruction or ruin.
Loss?

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 NIV
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 

Hiddenthings

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Loss?

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 NIV
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
even though only as one escaping through the flames.
God will assess the work of leaders and judge its quality (verses 12–15). Additionally, He will destroy anyone who harms His temple (16–17).

If only you read on!

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple."

Can you see SteVen why this is a hard watch?

Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Could I kindly ask that you carefully consider your questions and or the Scripture before responding? If not, there's no value in the process, as it doesn't contribute to learning.

You proved @Wrangler to be true in his assessment of you once more.
 
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Hiddenthings

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@St. SteVen

You have seen two Greek words; one stronger than the other.
  • ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi) – used in 1 Corinthians 3:17 – refers to destruction in a general sense. It can mean physical destruction, ruin, or loss.
  • ἀπώλεια (apoleia) – used in passages like John 17:12 or Philippians 1:28 – has a stronger connotation of eternal or spiritual ruin, often used in contexts of final judgment or eternal loss.
Philippians 1:28 "and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God."
 
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Hiddenthings

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@St. SteVen & @quietthinker

Out of curiosity, did you both know that the phrase "Son of Perdition" is a Hebraism that reflects both choice and fate?

I need to assume you don't otherwise you could have led me to its OT origins.

1 Samuel 2:12: "Now the sons of Eli were worthless men. They did not know the Lord."

Here, Eli’s sons are described as "worthless" or "sons of Belial" (the term used for wicked or lawless individuals in Hebrew culture), which carries the implication of their own corrupt choices.

Luke 10:6: "And if a "son of peace" is there, your peace will rest upon him; but if not, it will return to you."

The "son of peace" refers to someone who embraces peace, while in contrast, a "son of destruction" (or a person who rejects peace) makes a conscious choice against it.

Isaiah 57:4: "Whom do you mock, making faces at, and sticking out your tongue? Are you not children of transgression, the offspring of deceit..."

This verse speaks to those who actively choose rebellion and deceit, calling them "children" or "offspring" of those actions. It highlights how their actions shape their identity and destiny.

@Wrangler @Lizbeth How does God view those who misrepresent "sons of peace" as being "sons of destruction," inferring they share the same end??
 
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quietthinker

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@St. SteVen & @quietthinker

Out of curiosity, did you both know that the phrase "Son of Perdition" is a Hebraism that reflects both choice and fate?

I need to assume you don't otherwise you could have led me to its OT origins
You can and do assume whatever you like Hidden. These carry no weight for me, particularly as I see you flit about from accusation to unrelated text.
I see your attempts to appear informed of 'Hidden things' as nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
I'm onto your game of deflection and projection!
 
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Hiddenthings

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You can and do assume whatever you like Hidden. These carry no weight for me, particularly as I see you flit about from accusation to unrelated text.
I see your attempts to appear informed of 'Hidden things' as nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
I'm onto your game of deflection and projection!
When someone has been scrutinized and tested as thoroughly as you have, there are two paths you can take. One is to engage with humility and seek understanding, perhaps even learning something new along the way. The other is to rely on your familiar tactics of diversion and playing the victim, which is, in essence, the approach you're taking here. Given your current approach, I'm left questioning your value in this thread, and possibly in this forum altogether.
 
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quietthinker

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When someone has been scrutinized and tested as thoroughly as you have, there are two paths you can take. One is to engage with humility and seek understanding, perhaps even learning something new along the way. The other is to rely on your familiar tactics of diversion and playing the victim, which is, in essence, the approach you're taking here. Given your current approach, I'm left questioning your value in this thread, and possibly in this forum altogether.
Your analysis is wanting Hidden.....and your desire to control is not concealed.
 

quietthinker

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You mean the desire to correct your false teachings, absolutely, yes! And may that correction grow louder and clearer until you turn away from your deceit.
I don't mean that. However what is revealed is your inability to hear that which is communicated.
 

Hiddenthings

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Both of you have the same spirit as seen in 2 Timothy 2:18 "They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

Like them slowly their false teaching had permeated the body / forum like a canker and this why they were put out.

Hymenaeus was condemned by Paul for spreading false teachings. He seemingly rejected both apostolic doctrine and the guidance of his own conscience. As a result, Paul handed him over to "Satan", the flesh! (1 Corinthians 5:5) to correct him and teach him the gravity of his blasphemy.

You should look into this example as fitting your (and SteVen's) situation.
 

Hiddenthings

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I don't mean that.
You don't understand what you're saying, Quiet. You're confused on many matters, and the truth seems to be lost on you because you lack the desire to read, reflect, and truly grasp His wisdom.

You cannot know because you do not have ears to hear.
 

quietthinker

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Both of you have the same spirit as seen in 2 Timothy 2:18 "They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some."

Like them slowly their false teaching had permeated the body / forum like a canker and this why they were put out.

Hymenaeus was condemned by Paul for spreading false teachings. He seemingly rejected both apostolic doctrine and the guidance of his own conscience. As a result, Paul handed him over to "Satan", the flesh! (1 Corinthians 5:5) to correct him and teach him the gravity of his blasphemy.

You should look into this example as fitting your (and SteVen's) situation.
You quote texts unrelated to suit your own agenda Hidden.....then you flesh out that agenda, unaware of the audacity involved in advising what we should be doing.
Your approach is self serving.....bolstering your ego.
 
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quietthinker

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You don't understand what you're saying, Quiet. You're confused on many matters, and the truth seems to be lost on you because you lack the desire to read, reflect, and truly grasp His wisdom.

You cannot know because you do not have ears to hear.
hahaha....I guess you assume you can read others accurately even when they tell you what they mean. I think that is incredibly arrogant.......then you project your own shortcoming. All this does is hide you from yourself....and shrinks your self awareness.
 
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Hiddenthings

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You quote texts unrelated to suit your own agenda Hidden.....then you flesh out that agenda, unaware of the audacity involved in advising what we should be doing.
Your approach is self serving.....bolstering your ego.
The more you resist the louder these truths become.
 

Hiddenthings

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hahaha....
As I’ve said many times, I’m confident that when everything finally comes to light, you’ll recognize your error and see how I, and others repeatedly tried to show you the truth. In the end, it will be evident that we truly made the effort. We endured slow trains, self‑victimization, and baseless judgments, all of which will ultimately reveal one thing.
 

Hiddenthings

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@Lizbeth @Wrangler @amigo de christo @ProDeo

In Acts 1:18 we have considerable insight into Peter's view of Judas.

Acts 1:18 "Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out."

This phrase reflects Peter's intense loathing of the betrayer, Judas. He was no longer considered worthy of being referred to as anything other than "this man!" Interestingly, the Greek text does not include the word for "man," but simply states "houtok", meaning "this!" This stark phrasing emphasizes Judas's degradation.

"Purchased a field with the reward of iniquity"

It wasn’t the thirty pieces of silver, as mentioned in Matthew 27:6, but rather the proceeds of Judas's theft, referred to in John 12:6. The field was bought before the crucifixion, but Judas's death caused it to be put back on the market. The priests later bought it to serve as a burial ground for Gentiles, as described in Matthew 27:3-8.

WARNING Graphic language follows:

"And falling headlong"


More accurately, this could be translated as "head first" or "head foremost" (Greek: prenēs). In the very possession he had acquired with the blood money, Judas met his untimely end. The phrase suggests that Judas tied the rope around his neck, leaned forward, and allowed the full weight of his body to fall upon his neck. The limb of the tree, weakened, broke (as noted in Matthew 27:5), causing him to plunge headfirst over a precipice into the valley below. It seems likely that the tree he chose was positioned on a cliff overlooking the Valley of Hinnom.

"he burst asunder" — The only occurrence of the word elakesen, which means to burst with a noise, such as of bones breaking beneath a blow.

"in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out" Judas fell in such a way that his intestines (Gr. splagchna: spleen) were exposed, and "poured out." There is here a contrast with his Master, whose "soul was poured out unto death" (Isa 53:12) but his sacrifice led to joy and life, whereas the fatality of Judas resulted in ignominy, shame and death.

For those lacking discernment, the devotion of SteVen and Quiets, driven by a need for the love of Judas, may appear commendable or even praiseworthy. However, their reasoning stems from the misguided sentiments of those who do not truly know the God of the Bible and His righteousness.

There is no passage in all of Scripture that suggests there is any hope for Judas. The only reason these two seek to claim otherwise is to advance the doctrine of universal salvation.

I was sad to see ProDeo had also been deceived by their doctrine.
 
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quietthinker

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As I’ve said many times, I’m confident that when everything finally comes to light, you’ll recognize your error and see how I, and others repeatedly tried to show you the truth. In the end, it will be evident that we truly made the effort. We endured slow trains, self‑victimization, and baseless judgments, all of which will ultimately reveal one thing.
If this is not arrogance!
 

quietthinker

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Then it must be truth Quiet...how long will it take for you to understand you beliefs are false.
Your qualification is determined by yourself.....quite the contrary to how you presume to qualify others.
Unfortunately, I have little hope you would understand this statement.