Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Grailhunter,

The KJV is the most inaccurate and error ridden translation available.

I was speaking about the KJV rendition of John 1:18 and the fact that there is a correct Greek original and an erroneous Greek version. I am very conscious of both the benefits and limitations of the KJV. I read a portion every morning from an interlinear RV/KJV and I prefer the OT part of the RV by comparison with the NT part of the RV. As far as John 1:18 is concerned the RV rendition is the same as the KJV, I really like many of the RV differences. I also compare other translations using my Bible Program.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[MonoBiblical]

Mono,,,
I dislike Reformed/Calvinist theology because I truly believe it teaches a different gospel.
BUT
I also believe they are Christian.

Because they may have their theology incorrect...
but they believe in the Christian tenets.

Perhaps, you don't understand. There is something very immoral about Calvinist theology.

Peace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps, you don't understand. There is something very immoral about Calvinist theology.

Peace.

I agree.
They are misguided...but still Christian.

 

[MonoBiblical]

I agree.
They are misguided...but still Christian.

Oh?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh?

I was going to reply but decided not to.
It's a different thread.

 

[Wrangler]

You must have missed the following -


The Son is God:

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Doesn’t really answer my question; do you realize Jesus has a God?

 

[Wrangler]

How do you believe John if you don't believe John?

I believe John, just not trinitarian extreme eisegesis of what John said.

No response to how John’s purpose statement conflicts with trinitarian extreme eisegesis of what John said? 20:31.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe John, just not trinitarian extreme eisegesis of what John said.

No response to how John’s purpose statement conflicts with trinitarian extreme eisegesis of what John said? 20:31.

John 20:31? Why don't some members post scripture????

31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

I thought I had replied to the above...
maybe to another member...

THEN...

Why don't YOU explain
John 1:1 and John 1:14

John 1:1, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,


Jesus is The Son of God:

It is God THE Son.
NOT a son.

God's son would be God...
nature creates nature.

Except that Jesus is not a created being...
He always was,
as John explains in

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


God was "in the beginning". (there is no beginning with God).

And then THE WORD,,,,which was with God from the beginning and was God from the beginning....
became flesh.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn’t really answer my question; do you realize Jesus has a God?

Jesus IS God.
God Son
not
God Father

Maybe you could post the scripture to which you're referring.
The entire scripture...not just book and verse.
Thanks.

 

[Wrangler]

Why don't YOU explain
John 1:1 and John 1:14

I've explained these many, MANY times. Did you answer my question of how a thing can be WITH a thing and BE that very same thing?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus IS God.
God Son
not
God Father

Maybe you could post the scripture to which you're referring.
The entire scripture...not just book and verse.
Thanks.

Sounds like you don't realize Jesus has a God. There are many verses that say this. The most explicit are Rev 3:12

All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name. (Jesus refers to his God 4 times in this one verse)​

John 20:17

And Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

 

[Berean]

So let's think about this...You say-
while on earth Jesus was just a man and not a man-god.

Aside from the fact that Christianity teaches the hypostatic union...
which means that the early Christians taught that Jesus was both man and God...
fully man and fully God.
Jesus had two natures and two wills.

So, was Jesus ONLY a man?

Thanks for all your scriptural proofs

Man cannot do the following...
which Jesus did:

FORGAVE SINS
KNEW WHAT WAS IN A PERSONS HEART
RAISED PERSONS FROM THE DEAD
RAISED HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD
KNEW THE FUTURE
PERFORMED MIRACLES
AUTHORITY OVER NATURE
SACRIFICED AS AN ATONEMENT
PERFECTLY HOLY

You forget Jesus was a perfect man, who had the fullness of the Holy Spirit that allowed him to do such things. If the Disciples could read hearts, didn't Peter read the hearts of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? How else could he know their intent. Did not the disciples heal and raise from the dead, perform, miracles?

So if you do not belong to the Christian religion... WHY do you call yourself a Christian??

Because being a Christian is not a religion, it's a way of life.

 

[Berean]

even those that were not orthodox.

I only care about the 66 books we have that make up the Bible. Genesis through Revelation is harmonious throughout.

And if you don't want to believe what those that THE APOSTLES taught....that is your prerogative.

Who says I don't?

Inspiration was hardly necessary since they spent OVER THREE YEARS WITH Jesus...

Really? And where do you get that thought from? They spent 3.5 years with Jesus and still understood very little that He taught, which is why on Pentecost, Jesus gave the 70 the Holy Spirit. He told his Disciples in John 14:26, "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

You should read my post no. 651
It has writings by one taught by John and knew Peter.

Im not interested in non-canon writings

I suppose those teaching you Jesus is not God are inspired??

No, not inspired.

 

[Berean]

It seems you did not read the Bible.

Jesus is God:
"No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."
J 1:18

"Theirs [Jews] are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen."
R 9:5

"...awaiting the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
Titus 2:13

Jesus is almighty:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me”
Matthew 28:18

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8

And where do any of these Scriptures you cite state Jesus is God Almighty?

FYI, per the updated forum rules, you are not allowed to use the "Christian" label and dispute Trinity, ananymore.

And yet here we are, discussing the Trinity. Besides, they keep changing the rules on this subject, who can keep up?

 

[HealthyShape]

And where do any of these Scriptures you cite state Jesus is God Almighty?

Such question does not even make sense anymore. Just use ctrl-f and search for God and Almighty in the verses I gave you...

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for all your scriptural proofs

I need scriptural proof for stating what Christianity believes?
I thought you were Christian?
Don't you know what Christians believe?
WHY am I supposed to be debating what all Christians accept??

You forget Jesus was a perfect man, who had the fullness of the Holy Spirit that allowed him to do such things. If the Disciples could read hearts, didn't Peter read the hearts of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5? How else could he know their intent. Did not the disciples heal and raise from the dead, perform, miracles?

Oh.
So now you believe that:

1. Jesus was just a man
or
2. The Disciples were also God.

Because being a Christian is not a religion, it's a way of life.

Christianity is not a religion?

Here's some news for you:
There are 3 great religions on this earth:
CHRISTIANITY
ISLAM
JUDAISM

There's no religion called WAY OF LIFE.

 

[GodsGrace]

I only care about the 66 books we have that make up the Bible. Genesis through Revelation is harmonious throughout.

Even went back and reread my comment.
The above still makes no sense.
Sorry.

Nobody said the 66 books are not harmonious.

Who says I don't?

If you DID, you'd have written testimony that Jesus is God and you'd believe it.

Really? And where do you get that thought from? They spent 3.5 years with Jesus and still understood very little that He taught, which is why on Pentecost, Jesus gave the 70 the Holy Spirit. He told his Disciples in John 14:26, "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

John 14:26 Right.
Thanks for proving my point.
The Holy Spirit helped the Apostles to REMEMBER everything Jesus had taught them.
That is different.
We all know what inspiration means.
It does NOT mean bringing to mind what someone said/taught.

Im not interested in non-canon writings

Excuse me,,,it sounded like you perhaps did from your statement just above stating "who says I don't" in re to the ECFs.

No, not inspired.

I agree. The person from whom you are learning that Jesus is not God is truly NOT inspired.

The generation right after the Apostles did not require inspiration...
they learned history first-hand from the Apostles themselves.

I do believe they were much more knowledgeable about Jesus than anyone of today that is dividing the church Jesus established.

 

[Berean]

There's no religion called WAY OF LIFE.

Because it's not a religion, it's a way of life.

9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." - Acts 9:1,2

 

[Archie]

This is purely anecdotal, and I'm not about to enter into debate on this issue. But for what its worth, I came to repentance and faith 35 years ago, and for most of my Christian life I went back and forth and back again over the trinity. It wasn't that I didn't believe it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around it.

In the last three years I have become completely convinced that the Trinity is the way in which God has chosen to express His divine personage. And guess what, while I am now completely convinced in this spiritual reality, I am no more able to wrap my mind around it than I ever was.

So no, for me at least, its not a salvation issue.

 

[Wrangler]

I agree that John 1:1 and John 1:14 are so clear as to make all other scripture unnecessary.

Wow! Extreme eisgesis at its finest, taking things out of context and imposing an interpretation on it. What was your answer again on how a thing can be WITH something and BE that same thing?

You're in denial of how John 1:1, the beginning of Christ's ministry (not the beginning of Creation), and John 1:14 tie into John 1:45, “We have found the very person Moses and the prophets wrote about! This is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:15-18 - not an introduction to the trinity doctrine.

15 Moses continued, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you yourselves requested of the LORD your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai.[a] You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’​

​

17 “Then the LORD said to me, ‘What they have said is right. 18 I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him.​

This is not a statement that YHWH will one day come in the flesh and go by another name. Rather, Jesus is foretold to be a man, like Moses, a fellow Israelite, who will speak the words God put in his mouth. This is the proper interpretation of John 1. And Jesus said as much in John 12:49
I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Not much of a God who cannot speak his own words and is even told how to speak. The Father who sent Jesus is YHWH, the LORD God almighty, the only true God according to Jesus at John 17:1,3.
'Father ... And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God.'

The way to eternal life is not the trinity according to Jesus. What Jesus said at John 17:3 is no different than what YWHW said in the OT many times. Isaiah 45:5 (REV) I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God.

What does this verse mean as far as other gods, including the trinity god? Again I ask, why do Christ followers, such as yourself, contradict YHWH, the LORD God almighty, and teach what Jesus did not?