When does Jesus judge? Is the second coming Judgement day?

[Truth7t7]

And the the everlasting punishment happens in the future from the second coming and glorification. That's what Greek Grammar and the future tense verb I mentioned proves. Saying it's all future from today's date is irrelevant info since we all know that already making your post red herring fallacy related because changing the topic away from that future tense verb is what an Amill argument must do.







False. It is not an eternal separation until over a thousand years after the second coming. That's why the writer used a furture tense verb to show that happens in the future from the second coming events.




Paul does no such thing. You are misrepresenting this topic, as has been shown.

Your future tense verb is a joke, the translators out weigh your claims in plain English, are you a Greek Scholar, post your degrees, crickets!

 

[ewq1938]

Your future tense verb is a joke

No, it's real but it's denial is a sad sad joke You say this because it disproves Amill. Ppl always defend their false beliefs even when confronted with the truth.

 

[Scott Downey]

No, it's real but it's denial is a sad sad joke You say this because it disproves Amill. Ppl always defend their false beliefs even when confronted with the truth.

Never establish a major doctrine on a single verse interpretation!
What you are saying is misleading.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ppl always defend their false beliefs even when confronted with the truth.

Your looking in a mirror of your own accusation

 

[ewq1938]

Never establish a major doctrine on a single verse interpretation!
What you are saying is misleading.

Interpretation: Amill must reject Greek grammar and the use of future tense verbs when it shows errors in the doctrine. Defend the doctrine at all costs is the Amill way.

 

[ewq1938]

Your looking in a mirror of your own accusation

Is the verb "looking" in the future tense? lol

 

[Truth7t7]

Is the verb "looking" in the future tense? lol

You're not to be taken seriously, please provide your Greek scholarships, waiting?

 

[Truth7t7]

I cited public knowledge about the future tense verb. Go to blueletterbible and do some work yourself. Do you want that site to prove their credentials also? Obviously you are using a red herring fallacy to change the subject because certain verb tenses prove Amill to be false so you attack the messenger and change the topic.

Your Greek Scholarship, Waiting?

 

[ewq1938]

Your Greek Scholarship, Waiting?

I cited public knowledge about the future tense verb. Go to blueletterbible and do some work yourself. Do you want that site to prove their credentials also? Obviously you are using a red herring fallacy to change the subject because certain verb tenses prove Amill to be false so you attack the messenger and change the topic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your future tense verb is a joke, the translators out weigh your claims in plain English, are you a Greek Scholar, post your degrees, crickets!

Agree! He acts like the verb is far future tense, but there's no such thing. It was future tense as of the time it was written, so saying that it's future tense proves nothing. There is no basis for trying to claim that the rule with a rod of iron referenced in Revelation 19:15 is future to the smiting of the nations (heathen) and treading them in the winepress of God's wrath written about in the same verse. Based on Psalm 2:7-9, ruling with a rod of iron involves breaking/destroying the heathen, which is exactly what Jesus is going to do when He returns. He is not going to rule over them for a thousand years after He returns as Premils imagine. No, He is going to take vengeance on all of them when He returns (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Interpretation: Amill must reject Greek grammar and the use of future tense verbs when it shows errors in the doctrine. Defend the doctrine at all costs is the Amill way.

You're talking about something that was written in future tense as of the time it was written. You act as if it's future tense to the time Jesus returns. You are butchering the text while pretending to be a Greek expert, which we all know you are not.

 

[jeffweeder]

You're talking about something that was written in future tense as of the time it was written. You act as if it's future tense to the time Jesus returns.

Yes.
The second coming,
The sentence of eternal separation of all unbelievers,
The glorification of all believers
all happen in the future on that particular day the Lord comes ....,

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day ....


Paul repeats this truth a paragraph or 2 later...,


8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ],

14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul very clearly took our Lords teaching (in Matt 25) seriously.

1Thess 4
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Ch-5
Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord].

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.
The second coming,
The sentence of eternal separation of all unbelievers,
The glorification of all believers
all happen in the future on that particular day the Lord comes ....,

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day ....


Paul repeats this truth a paragraph or 2 later...,


8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ],

14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul very clearly took our Lords teaching (in Matt 25) seriously.

1Thess 4
15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Ch-5
Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord].

Amen, Jeff! I like how that is worded in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. It says they will ABSOLUTELY not escape. Premils contradict that and say some unbelievers will somehow escape the sudden destruction that will occur when Jesus returns. No, they ABSOLUTELY will not.

 

[jeffweeder]

Amen, Jeff! I like how that is worded in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. It says they will ABSOLUTELY not escape. Premils contradict that and say some unbelievers will somehow escape the sudden destruction that will occur when Jesus returns. No, they ABSOLUTELY will not.

Yes Brother, God has fixed a Particular day, not multiple days.

Act 17
26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands and territories. 27 This was so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grasp for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being], as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
29 So then, being God’s children, we should not think that the Divine Nature (deity) is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination or skill of man.

30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”


That would be the day he comes in full and complete vengeance in 2Thess 1, the day he glorifies us.


Why do some wish to complicate what is so straight forward and easily corroborated with the sacred text.?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes.
The second coming,
The sentence of eternal separation of all unbelievers,
The glorification of all believers
all happen in the future on that particular day the Lord comes ....,

That's not what the passage says. Amill always ignores the future tense verb there showing the eternal separation ie: GWTJ and LOF does not happen at the second coming.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the being punished with everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

https://biblehub. com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

You can verify in the link above (remove the extra SPACE just before COM) that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses!

 

[jeffweeder]

That's not what the passage says. Amill always ignores the future tense verb there showing the eternal separation ie: GWTJ and LOF does not happen at the second coming.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the being punished with everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

https://biblehub. com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

You can verify in the link above (remove the extra SPACE just before COM) that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses

You have posted this nonsense before, and I didn't AVOID responding to it.
I asked you why you didn't present the whole sentence of 2thess 1:9-10.


9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


That bolded piece of information destroys your argument that the eternal punishment occurs future to the Lords coming and our glorification.

 

[ewq1938]

You have posted this nonsense before, and I didn't AVOID responding to it.

You did and are doing so now. Address the verb tense, then bring up whatever point you want to make and I will address it.

The verb tense proves the GWTJ/LOF does not happen at the second coming. The writer clearly separates those events.

 

[jeffweeder]

You did and are doing so now. Address the verb tense, then bring up whatever point you want to make and I will address it.

I have Lol. They are all future, and the writer unites them into occurring the same day.

The writer clearly separates those events.

No, he does not...,


9 "These people" will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


"These people" being those who are the object of his vengeance when he comes in v 8.

 

[ewq1938]

I have Lol. They are all future, and the writer unites them into occurring the same day.

That's not what the writer said in Greek. He places some events at the second coming and some in the future. That is Premill.

No, he does not...,

He does using present and future tense verbs, something Amill must avoid like the plague.

9 "These people" will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


"These people" being those who are the object of his vengeance when he comes in v 8.

Everyone knows that. Their ultimate punishment does not happen that same day.

 

[jeffweeder]

Everyone knows that. Their ultimate punishment does not happen that same day.

One thing is for sure.... when the ultimate punishment does occur, then so will our glorification.


9 "These people" will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day



Most would agree that our glorification occurs at his second coming.


So what actually happens when the Lord appears, if not glorification and judgment???

As you have been told already it is time to read chapter 2, where Paul repeats his second coming occurrences and he includes satans little season and his release to go forth in all power of deception and wickedness.



2Thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.