1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is not talking about world peace and safety

[Taken]

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is not talking about world peace and safety

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

One reason that pre-tribs don't see this passage as relating to the return of Christ is because they think there will not be world peace and safety before the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. So, they try to say this passage relates to a pre-trib rapture that occurs during a time of world peace and safety instead. And they say a time of great tribulation in the world occurs after Jesus comes as a thief in the night.

ODD you create a thread… without a single TEXT of a “Pre-Tribber”…making any of the claims YOU HAVE MADE FOR THEM.

I believe in a PRE-Tribulation Rapture that applies Expressly ONLY TO: They Converted IN Christ, Before the Great Trib from Heaven commences.

Peace and Safety will NEVER Happen “IN” This Present WORLD

This Present World IS full of “Spiritual Warfare”…
Millions of humans “poor, sick IN spirit”
Millions of Fallen angels, cunningly targeting, the poor, sick in spirit.
Comparatively FEW “IN” Christ, “Prepared”, to be called “UP” from the face of this Earth…
Before…
the tribulations and Wrath of Lamb,
the tribulations and Wrath of the Devil,
the tribulations and Wrath of God…
Are sent down upon the whole of This present World… and it’s unrighteousness, it’s inhabitants to suffer the consequences of their unrighteousness.

The Son of Man was Sent.
The Son of Man while ON Earth, was Revealed He IS the Christ.
The Christ IS the Power OF God.
The Son of Man Returned TO Heaven.
The Son of Man WITH POWER Shall Return TO Earth…(Visible to Earthly Eyes)…
The Son of man, with (HIS) CHRISTS’ Raptured Church and His host of holy Angels… of which NONE are Visible to Earthly mens eyes).
After…
The Lamb of Gods’ Wrath…
The Devils’ Wrath…
Gods’ Wrath…

Who’s Who “is” Specific and matters, FOR the understanding of Spiritual Truths.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davidpt]

I am travelling at the moment and on holidays and I do not have the time to keep both you and my wife happy at the same time.

I Have reworked the table just for your consumption and enlightenment.

Year first age started with the creation of Adam	4100
Year BC first age ended with the end of God,s Sabbath day.	3076
Year BC when the second age began	3075
Year BC when the flood began	2444
Year BC when the flood ended	2445
Year BC when the second age ended	2052
Year BC when the third age began and Isaac was born	2051
Year BC when the third age ended	1028
Year BC when thefourth age started	1027
Year BC when the fifth age began and Christ was born	4
Year BC when Christ was cruxified	29
Year BC when the the temple was destroyed and Israel was scattered.	71
Year AD when the fifth Age Ended	1020
Year AD when the sixth age began	1021
Year AD when the sixth age ends	2044
Year AD when the seventh age begins	2045
Year AD when the seventh age ends	3068

Please remember that story telling accurace with respect to time can be plus or minus up to five years.

Also remember that Bishop Ussher made an assumption that the Biblical Hebrew number that is translated as a "thousand" is the maximum number that can be counted upon the ten digits on our hands, hence the term "Those hands" which when spoken quickly sounds like the word thousand that we us for 1,000 whereas the maximum number that we can count using the ten digits on our two hands is actually 1,024, which is the exact number of years I have used above in this table.

By ages you are basically meaning 1k year days. Right? What I have to wonder, per this age and your view---2045-3068---will Christ be bodily present on the earth during that age? Premils would say yes. If you say no, that makes you Postmil then, right? If yes, unfortunately Postmil is not a view I know that much about.

All I know is, I can't picture anything in Revelation 19:11-21 being fulfilled without involving Christ having bodily returned in order to fulfill these things. Nor can I picture the 2nd coming, the bodily return of Christ, still being 1K years away from this present time. Not to mention, the beast and false prophet never get cast into the bottomless pit like you seem to believe. That's not what Revelation 19:20 records. Unless you maybe think the bottomless pit and the LOF are one and the same?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Joel 2 - northern army attacking Israel. God deals with them driving them towards the eastern and western sea.

Joel 3 - God brings ALL the nations down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat to be judged.

The shows that the Day of the LORD is also a period of time as well as a specific day.

You're getting "the last days" confused with the day of the Lord. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord, as Peter indicated when quoting Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21. Joel 2:2 says the day of the Lord is a day of darkness and gloominess. That would mean, if it was a time period, then that time period would consist of darkness and gloominess the whole time. But, no Premil would claim that the thousand years is a time of darkness and gloominess. You continue to take Joel 2 out of context despite being corrected. What you think is the day of the Lord is what Peter called "the last days" in reference to Joel 2. Learn from Peter the difference between "the last days" and "the day of the Lord".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

ODD you create a thread… without a single TEXT of a “Pre-Tribber”…making any of the claims YOU HAVE MADE FOR THEM.

So what? I know what I've seen pre-tribbers say. Sorry I didn't save a copy of what they said. Do pre-tribbers think there will be world peace and safety just before Jesus returns? No, right? And I know that many pre-tribbers think Paul is talking about world peace and safety in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. So, because of that, they couldn't possibly think that he was talking about people saying world peace and safety just before Jesus returns.

The day of the Lord is the day that Jesus will return, but pre-tribbers don't acknowledge that and I'm explaining one reason why. If that doesn't represent your particular pre-trib view, so be it. I'm not intending to say that all pre-tribbers interpret everything the same way.

I believe in a PRE-Tribulation Rapture that applies Expressly ONLY TO: They Converted IN Christ, Before the Great Trib from Heaven commences.

Peace and Safety will NEVER Happen “IN” This Present WORLD

This Present World IS full of “Spiritual Warfare”…
Millions of humans “poor, sick IN spirit”
Millions of Fallen angels, cunningly targeting, the poor, sick in spirit.
Comparatively FEW “IN” Christ, “Prepared”, to be called “UP” from the face of this Earth…
Before…
the tribulations and Wrath of Lamb,
the tribulations and Wrath of the Devil,
the tribulations and Wrath of God…
Are sent down upon the whole of This present World… and it’s unrighteousness, it’s inhabitants to suffer the consequences of their unrighteousness.

The Son of Man was Sent.
The Son of Man while ON Earth, was Revealed He IS the Christ.
The Christ IS the Power OF God.
The Son of Man Returned TO Heaven.
The Son of Man WITH POWER Shall Return TO Earth…(Visible to Earthly Eyes)…
The Son of man, with (HIS) CHRISTS’ Raptured Church and His host of holy Angels… of which NONE are Visible to Earthly mens eyes).
After…
The Lamb of Gods’ Wrath…
The Devils’ Wrath…
Gods’ Wrath…

Who’s Who “is” Specific and matters, FOR the understanding of Spiritual Truths.

Keeping in context with the point of this thread, what is your understanding of what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3? When he talks about people saying "peace and safety" what do you think he means? Do you agree with me that he's talking about people who are in spiritual darkness thinking that they are spiritually at peace and are safe from God's wrath?

 

[Davidpt]

You're getting "the last days" confused with the day of the Lord. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord, as Peter indicated when quoting Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21. Joel 2:2 says the day of the Lord is a day of darkness and gloominess. That would mean, if it was a time period, then that time period would consist of darkness and gloominess the whole time. But, no Premil would claim that the thousand years is a time of darkness and gloominess. You continue to take Joel 2 out of context despite being corrected. What you think is the day of the Lord is what Peter called "the last days" in reference to Joel 2. Learn from Peter the difference between "the last days" and "the day of the Lord".

Speaking of Joel. What about the following in Joel 3? How can chronology not be relevant?

A) Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

B) 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake:

C) but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Take C), for example, the remainder of verse 16 through verse 21. How can any of those things come to pass before what is recorded in A) and B) come to pass first? You already admit, do you not, that what is recorded per B), this is yet to come to pass?

Take verse 19, clearly meaning in that day, the same era of time meant in verse 18. What does verse 19 look like if it's supposed to be applicable to the here and now, thus Amil? What is this meaning in verse 19 and how is it applicable to the here and now---for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land? After all, isn't that one of the reasons for this---Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness?



Don't details mean anything to Amils? Are there details like these for no reason whatsoever? These details are part of the texts except they don't really mean anything one way or the other?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Speaking of Joel. What about the following in Joel 3? How can chronology not be relevant?

A) Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

B) 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake:

C) but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Take C), for example, the remainder of verse 16 through verse 21. How can any of those things come to pass before what is recorded in A) and B) come to pass first? You already admit, do you not, that what is recorded per B), this is yet to come to pass?

Take verse 19, clearly meaning in that day, the same era of time meant in verse 18. What does verse 19 look like if it's supposed to be applicable to the here and now, thus Amil? What is this meaning in verse 19 and how is it applicable to the here and now---for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land? After all, isn't that one of the reasons for this---Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness?



Don't details mean anything to Amils? Are there details like these for no reason whatsoever? These details are part of the texts except they don't really mean anything one way or the other?

Is there some reason why you aren't actually addressing the point I was making in my post? What does any of this have to do with defining what the day of the Lord represents, which is what the ongoing discussion I was having with Marilyn C is about? What are you intending to say in relation to Joel 3 as it relates to whether the day of the Lord is a period of time or a literal 24 hour day?

In the beginning of Joel 3 it talks about "those days and in that time". That's a reference to "the last days" Joel was referencing just before that. Peter indicated that the last days which Joel wrote about had already begun in his time. He included the day of Pentecost as being part of the last days. He quoted from Joel 2:28-32, which comes just before Joel 3. Are you taking this into account when reading Joel 3? You question if details matter to Amils. I question if details matter to Premils like you.

 

[Marilyn C]

You're getting "the last days" confused with the day of the Lord. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord, as Peter indicated when quoting Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21. Joel 2:2 says the day of the Lord is a day of darkness and gloominess. That would mean, if it was a time period, then that time period would consist of darkness and gloominess the whole time. But, no Premil would claim that the thousand years is a time of darkness and gloominess. You continue to take Joel 2 out of context despite being corrected. What you think is the day of the Lord is what Peter called "the last days" in reference to Joel 2. Learn from Peter the difference between "the last days" and "the day of the Lord".

Actually the `Last Days` are -

1. The Day of Christ, (or Lord Jesus Christ). (Phil.1: 10)

2. The Day of the LORD. (God Almighty in Judgment) (Joel 2)

3. The Day of God. (2 Peter 3: 7 - 12)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually the `Last Days` are -

1. The Day of Christ, (or Lord Jesus Christ). (Phil.1: 10)

2. The Day of the LORD. (God Almighty in Judgment) (Joel 2)

3. The Day of God. (2 Peter 3: 7 - 12)

Absolute nonsense. Nowhere does scripture describe the last days that way. You need to allow scripture itself to define the last days for you. You're not doing that.

Look at how Peter describes the last days and learn.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Here, Peter indicated that the last days had already begun before the day of Pentecost and the day of Pentecost occurred during the last days. Peter identified the last days as being the time during which God would pour out His Holy Spirit on people and the time during which people would call on the name of the Lord and be saved. So, the last days began long ago and are still ongoing today.

Peter also identified the last days as being the time during which scoffers would scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

So, Peter indicated that the last days began long ago and will continue until the second coming of Christ, at which point scoffers obviously will not be able to scoff at the promise of His second coming any longer.

 

[Marilyn C]

Absolute nonsense. Nowhere does scripture describe the last days that way. You need to allow scripture itself to define the last days for you. You're not doing that.

Look at how Peter describes the last days and learn.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Here, Peter indicated that the last days had already begun before the day of Pentecost and the day of Pentecost occurred during the last days. Peter identified the last days as being the time during which God would pour out His Holy Spirit on people and the time during which people would call on the name of the Lord and be saved. So, the last days began long ago and are still ongoing today.

Peter also identified the last days as being the time during which scoffers would scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

So, Peter indicated that the last days began long ago and will continue until the second coming of Christ, at which point scoffers obviously will not be able to scoff at the promise of His second coming any longer.

I wrote just that. The Day of Christ started with Pentecost and will culminate when He comes to take the mature Body of Christ to His own throne. (Phil. 1: 6 - 10 1 Cor. 1: 7 & 8 Acts 3: 20 & 21 Rev. 3: 21

 

[rvmb]

I wrote just that. The Day of Christ started with Pentecost and will culminate when He comes to take the mature Body of Christ to His own throne. (Phil. 1: 6 - 10 1 Cor. 1: 7 & 8 Acts 3: 20 & 21 Rev. 3: 21

""Acts 3: 20 & 21"" - do you believe that's the same event as 1 Thess 4:16-17 & 1 Cor 15:51-52 ?
Do you believe Acts 2:44-45 applies today ?
************
""The Day of Christ started with Pentecost""

The Day of Christ - doctrine.org

Introduction The phrase “the day of Christ” or “the day of the Lord Jesus” is unique to the Apostle Paul. Paul also called the day of Christ “that day” in his last letter. The phrases are found in 1 Corinthians 1.8,…

doctrine.org

 

[Marilyn C]

""Acts 3: 20 & 21"" - do you believe that's the same event as 1 Thess 4:16-17 & 1 Cor 15:51-52 ?
Do you believe Acts 2:44-45 applies today ?
************
""The Day of Christ started with Pentecost""

The Day of Christ - doctrine.org

Introduction The phrase “the day of Christ” or “the day of the Lord Jesus” is unique to the Apostle Paul. Paul also called the day of Christ “that day” in his last letter. The phrases are found in 1 Corinthians 1.8,…

doctrine.org

Yes, and yes, though with the proviso that the 12 Apostles did great wonders as a sign of their message concerning Christ to the Jews. Some Apostles today &/or ascension ministries do have healing/miracle works.

 

[rvmb]

Yes, and yes, though with the proviso that the 12 Apostles did great wonders as a sign of their message concerning Christ to the Jews. Some Apostles today &/or ascension ministries do have healing/miracle works.

 

[rvmb]

""Some Apostles today &/or ascension ministries do have healing/miracle works.""
Can you list ANY VERIFIABLE occasion today when a self-claimed "apostle" did & survived the following ?
***
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
Acts 28:3-5 :-
3And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

 

[Marilyn C]

""Some Apostles today &/or ascension ministries do have healing/miracle works.""
Can you list ANY VERIFIABLE occasion today when a self-claimed "apostle" did & survived the following ?
***
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
Acts 28:3-5 :-
3And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

It is in God`s word 1 Cor. 12: 28. I don`t personally have to see it function.

 

[rvmb]

It is in God`s word 1 Cor. 12: 28. I don`t personally have to see it function.

Paul teaches those gifts will cease when the perfect has come 1 Cor 13:10
He himself lost his abilities yet people claim today they still have them ?
Have you ever heard a tongue speaker today be able to interpret to anyone what they said ?
Private prayer between themselves & GOD, ok fine but who does it edify ?
Have others been able to interpret what they say today as in Acts 2:4 ?
1 Cor 13:-
8..but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
With verses what do you believe is the "perfect" ?

 

[Marilyn C]

Paul teaches those gifts will cease when the perfect has come 1 Cor 13:10
He himself lost his abilities yet people claim today they still have them ?
Have you ever heard a tongue speaker today be able to interpret to anyone what they said ?
Private prayer between themselves & GOD, ok fine but who does it edify ?
Have others been able to interpret what they say today as in Acts 2:4 ?
1 Cor 13:-
8..but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
With verses what do you believe is the "perfect" ?

Perfect - Greek `teleios,` mental and moral character, completeness of full age, man, perfect.

Eph. 4: 13 `till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect, (mature) man...`

1 Cor. 2: 6 `But we speak wisdom among those who are perfect, (mature) ...`

Heb. 9: 11 `But Christ came as high Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. `

Christ is the seal of perfection and it is Him that we wait for.

 

[rvmb]

Perfect - Greek `teleios,` mental and moral character, completeness of full age, man, perfect.

Eph. 4: 13 `till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect, (mature) man...`

1 Cor. 2: 6 `But we speak wisdom among those who are perfect, (mature) ...`

Heb. 9: 11 `But Christ came as high Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. `

Christ is the seal of perfection and it is Him that we wait for.

There's significant debate on that with COMPLETED SCRIPTURE appearing to be what Paul was referring to in 1 Cor 13:10.
Some claim that since the gifts continue today then private revelation also continues so they need need PERFECT to mean something other than COMPLETED SCRIPTURE.
Didn't Mohammad, Ellen G White, The Bahai faith & more claim they had PRIVATE REVELATION ?
If so then their teachings should also be considered as legitimate, can you see the danger in PERFECT is come meaning anything other than completed Scripture ?

 

[Taken]

Do pre-tribbers think there will be world peace and safety just before Jesus returns?

I can not possibly speak for what others “labeled” by whatever term “think or at any moment believe”

they couldn't possibly think that he was talking about “people saying” world peace and safety just before Jesus returns.

Individual people … for decades, have said … they would like to see, experience, living in a world where “peace and safety” exists for all.

Some “men” seemingly project “world peace and safety”, is a goal, is a works, men CAN accomplish.

The day of the Lord is the day that Jesus will return, but pre-tribbers don't acknowledge that and I'm explaining one reason why.

You are giving your viewpoint regarding the “DAY of the Lord”, seemingly as being “A Single Day”.

If that doesn't represent your particular pre-trib view, so be it.

I believe “THE DAY” of the Lord, is NOT limited to a “SINGLE DAY”…
(Leaning on the FACT… human men are Limited by a Single Day… approx 24 hours… Time Constraint…
And the Lord IS NOT.

Rather, I view THE Day of THE Lord…a culmination, of His Presence, His Works, His Gifts, His Judgements, His Spiritual Relationship WITH, IN, men, His gathering, as IS attributed TO Him.

Keeping in context with the point of this thread, what is your understanding of what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3? When he talks about people saying "peace and safety" what do you think he means? Do you agree with me that he's talking about people who are in spiritual darkness thinking that they are spiritually at peace and are safe from God's wrath?

I agree with Scripture.
* Some Humans Will desire, “peace and safety” in this world.
* Some Humans Will speak, “how to achieve “peace and safety” in this world.
* Upstanding goals “of Humans to promote “peace and safety” in this world…ie “a peacemaker” is a “Nobel stance”.
* Expecting this Whole World, to achieve, “World peace and safety”….by, of, through Humans… IS NOT matter of factly, achievable for humans to accomplish.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Zao is life]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The context of this passage has absolutely nothing to do with the peace and safety of the world. There is nothing written there relating to world peace and safety. The ones who say "peace and safety" are all of those who are in spiritual darkness. So, them saying "peace and safety" is in relation to them falsely thinking that they are at spiritual peace and are safe from God's wrath. Those who are not "the children of light", as we in the church are, are instead said to be "in darkness". Paul figuratively refers to them as being asleep or drunk. They are completely oblivious to the wrath that will come down upon them when the Lord Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night to bring "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape".

One reason that pre-tribs don't see this passage as relating to the return of Christ is because they think there will not be world peace and safety before the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. So, they try to say this passage relates to a pre-trib rapture that occurs during a time of world peace and safety instead. And they say a time of great tribulation in the world occurs after Jesus comes as a thief in the night. But, the passage is not about world peace and safety before Jesus comes as a thief in the night. This passage relates directly to what Jesus said about how things will be before He returns unexpectedly. Jesus said this...

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Like Paul, Jesus taught that His return will come unexpectedly. No one knows the day or hour. He will come as a thief in the night, as Jesus Himself said He will (Matt 24:42-44, Luke 12:36-39, Rev 16:15). Those who are in spiritual darkness will continue living their lives as if they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath just like people did in the days of Noah before they were all killed by the flood (all except Noah and his family, of course). But, they are not spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath since Jesus will come as a thief in the night and bring "sudden destruction" upon them from which "they shall not escape" and they will all be killed when Jesus comes as a thief in the night just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day after previously thinking they were at peace and safe from God's wrath.

Those Paul is referring to as "they" in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 will include the same people Paul refers to as "they" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, and those whom Paul refers to as "they" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 may be the same people Paul is referring to in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as apostates.

Though it's implicit in Paul's letters to the Thessalonians that the recipients of Paul's letters would have known whom Paul was referring to as "they" in those passages,

unfortuantely the letters neither named / identified who Paul was talking about, nor did they leave later generations with any strong indication as to whom Paul was referring to

- except to say that he was not referring to those who belong to Christ and are watching and waiting for His return as being among those who will be caught off-guard by His return.

In Noah's day, "they" who were caught off-guard was the whole world, with the exception of Noah and his family.

"Then they shall say" is from the Greek word λέγωσιν (legōsin) and there are three places the word is used - both of the other two times it's referring to people telling others about something:

Greek Concordance: λέγωσιν (legōsin) -- 3 Occurrences

I don't think the "peace and safety" thing is mentioned anywhere else in the New Testament - but a lot of New Testament quotes actually come from the Septuagint, which would have been a far more readily available set of scrolls in the apostles' time than the more protected Hebrew texts - and the Septuagint contained the Apocrapha, and and at least some New Testament statements seem to be referencing things mentioned in the Apocrapha

- so you'd need a strong knowledge of the Apocrapha on top of all the prophets of the canonized Old Testament in order to know if there are any references in any of those books to the "peace and safety" statement. Failing this, you cannot make the assertion you make about (what you say) "peace and safety" is actually referring to, though there is a strong case for what you put forward.
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"The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD." (Proverbs 21:31).

"A horse disappoints those who trust in it for victory; despite its great strength, it cannot deliver." (Psalm 33:17).

"God may let them rest in a feeling of security, but he is constantly watching all their ways" (Job 24:22-23).

 

[Marilyn C]

There's significant debate on that with COMPLETED SCRIPTURE appearing to be what Paul was referring to in 1 Cor 13:10.
Some claim that since the gifts continue today then private revelation also continues so they need need PERFECT to mean something other than COMPLETED SCRIPTURE.
Didn't Mohammad, Ellen G White, The Bahai faith & more claim they had PRIVATE REVELATION ?
If so then their teachings should also be considered as legitimate, can you see the danger in PERFECT is come meaning anything other than completed Scripture ?

The gifts do not mean further revelation.