A Little Season

[David in NJ]

Love you to Brother, glad you stopped by the thread. Looking forward to your input.

my post #32

have to step out - will be back later

 

[Archie]

Sorry Archie, I guess I should have spoken a little more clearly here. I have nothing against the historical writings of Flavius Josephus, he seems to be well received, giving a notable, though sometimes questionable accounting of the "Antiquities of the Jews". Many consider his work to be a vital source for the history of the intertestamental period and the Jewish war against Rome.

The problem for me arises when doctrines are established and built from outside sources. Since Preterit doctrine is dependent upon outside sources rather than the Word of God, I find the doctrine to be suspect. You may not call yourself a Preterit but that is the doctrine the videos promote and defend. I agree that we absolutely must hold the Word(s) of Christ in the highest esteem, and believe He says what He means, and means what He says. I really don't mean to be offensive or condescending in my replies, but I am very passionate about finding truth from the one source that is all truth: the Bible.

The scriptures speak for themselves. The outside sources are just a bonus. The words of Christ are more than sufficient to make the case for His early return.

I have zero interest in establishing any doctrine. What does the scripture say? I've never been to cemetery, but I have been to Calvary.

 

[WPM]

You don't know?

I do! Tell me when you think it is, if you know.

 

[rwb]

Are you suggesting that His return was not imminent, as He and all the Apostles clearly taught that it was.

40 years is not a long time in the grand scheme of things, and fits perfectly with His numerous other statements concerning "this generation". 2000 years however, if one trusts that number, which I do not, is a very long time, and directly contradicts the words of Jesus Christ addressed to His audience in Judea, and His words given to John for the 7 churches.

The Greek words translated quickly, speedily, shortly are found in these verses in the KJB. In every single usage, quickly, speedily, shortly always means without delay or the very smallest delay. Trying to force these verses that speak of an action from Christ to mean about 40 years, or worse about 2000 years does not fit how the word always means immediacy or very soon.

Mt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mt 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Mt 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mr 16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Lu 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
Lu 16:6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
Joh 11:29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Ac 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Ac 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Re 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Re 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Re 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Likewise, these words translated from the same Greek word - speedily, quickly and shortly all point to something that shall come to pass without any delay.

Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Ac 25:4 But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly thither.
Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Re 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Re 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Since these words are always translated of things that would immediately come to pass, to read any of these verses as Christ coming again in about 40 - 2000 + years is not rightly dividing the Bible. It is in fact reading our doctrine into the verses. The verses are telling us that everything has been accomplished, salvation has come to mankind through Christ, therefore Christ is ready, and without any more delay He shall come again, not in 70 AD but when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Archie]

40 years is not "imminent"

Post again but remove the foolish insults.

What insults?
Observations my friend.

Along with not being very well versed on the topic you chose to debate, you clearly don't have much debate experience under your belt either.

And making authoritative statements for which you can provide no evidence, in an online forum, does not qualify as debate experience. Just to be clear.

 

[rwb]

It is not the second coming of Christ that comes quickly, shortly, speedily, or without delay! Rather that which comes quickly, speedily, shorty or without delay is Christ coming in us through His Spirit as we know and spiritually enter the Kingdom of God in heaven when we have been born again.

John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Romans 10:8-11 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Romans 10:13-17 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Archie]

One point for you to dwell on for now! If the return of Jesus was imminent in the first century AD how does 40 years later fit? For that matter how does almost 2,000 years later fit?

Revelation 22:7 (KJV) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:10 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22:20 (KJV) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Whats to dwell on?
How I can twist His words into meaning something they did not?

He came quickly. What more explanation is required?
Christ kept His word.

Christ never used the word "imminent" that's an inference based upon the text, specifically the words spoken by His Apostles.

When Christ Himself spoke of His return, He did so with even greater urgency. He said "behold I come quickly", and not once but three separate times in succession.
And He did so not forty years from His return, but at least 30 years after His ascension.

 

[rwb]

Whats to dwell on?
How I can twist His words into meaning something they did not?

He came quickly. What more explanation is required?
Christ kept His word.

Christ never used the word "imminent" that's an inference based upon the text, specifically the words spoken by His Apostles.

When Christ Himself spoke of His return, He did so with even greater urgency. He said "behold I come quickly", and not once but three separate times in succession.
And He did so not forty years from His return, but at least 30 years after His ascension.

You cannot biblically prove what you allege Archie! I don't believe you're twisting the Words of Christ, but I do believe you have been influenced, believing "quickly" is defined 30 to 40 or almost 2000 years from the time Christ spoke these words.

 

[Archie]

It is not the second coming of Christ that comes quickly, shortly, speedily, or without delay! Rather that which comes quickly, speedily, shorty or without delay is Christ coming in us through His Spirit as we know and spiritually enter the Kingdom of God in heaven when we have been born again.

Sorry, but no.

That was however, a very nice gospel message, thank you.

But none of those passages have anything at all to do with the imminent return of Christ. Neither do they support any of the spiritualizations that you made in your statement quoted above.

Let's stick with text shall we?
And let's most definitely, stick with the context.

What did Christ actually say?

Whom was He speaking to when He said it?

 

[rwb]

Sorry, but no.

That was however, a very nice gospel message, thank you.

But none of those passages have anything at all to do with the imminent return of Christ. Neither do they support any of the spiritualizations that you made in your statement quoted above.

Let's stick with text shall we?
And let's most definitely, stick with the context.

What did Christ actually say?

Whom was He speaking to when He said it?

It seems I'm just wasting my time. I initially responded because I thought you had recently become indoctrinated by the doctrine of Preterism. It seems I was mistaken, because you don't bother to address the points raised that refute the opinion that Christ says His second and only coming again would be quick or soon meaning 30 years from the time He spoke. That tells me your real interest is trying to convince others the doctrine of Preterits is truth therefore we should believe what you can only allege but cannot biblically prove. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[David in NJ]

I do! Tell me when you think it is, if you know.

Jesus told us and i posted it = trust the LORD

 

[Archie]

You cannot biblically prove what you allege Archie! I don't believe you're twisting the Words of Christ, but I do believe you have been influenced, believing "quickly" is defined 30 to 40 or almost 2000 years from the time Christ spoke these words.

You do not take Christ at His word.
And that's your issue. Your problem isn't with me, its with Christ.

Christ plainly and repeatedly told His first century followers that He would return quickly. You don't believe Him. What does 40 years, or 4000 years have to do with anything? Christ either returned as He said He would, or His words cannot be trusted. What other option is there? Just because you believe that 2000 years have passed and He still has not returned changes absolutely nothing. Everything still comes back to one simple question.
Do you trust Christ and can you take Him at His word? Or must you explain away His clear speech, because it does not match your experience?

 

[WPM]

Jesus told us and i posted it = trust the LORD

The second coming?

 

[Archie]

It seems I'm just wasting my time. I initially responded because I thought you had recently become indoctrinated by the doctrine of Preterism. It seems I was mistaken, because you don't bother to address the points raised that refute the opinion that Christ says His second and only coming again would be quick or soon meaning 30 years from the time He spoke. That tells me your real interest is trying to convince others the doctrine of Preterits is truth therefore we should believe what you can only allege but cannot biblically prove. Thanks for the discussion.

Well thanks for stopping by.

I trust the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. You trust your doctrine, and yet accuse me, of being indoctrinated. That's rich brother.

And I mean brother. You are a formidable opponent and I appreciate your contributions to this thread.

Much love, much peace.

 

[David in NJ]

The second coming?

From Genesis to Revelation = only one 2nd Coming

 

[Archie]

You cannot biblically prove what you allege Archie! I don't believe you're twisting the Words of Christ, but I do believe you have been influenced, believing "quickly" is defined 30 to 40 or almost 2000 years from the time Christ spoke these words.

Not so. Its right there in black and white and red. You on the other hand, a chosen disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, for some inexplicable reason, are incapable of putting your faith and trust in the clearly spoken words of your Master.

 

[WPM]

From Genesis to Revelation = only one 2nd Coming

If the last or final or concluding day is the second coming, how can you have more days, weeks and years after that?

 

[Douggg]

@Archie

Ezekiel 38-39 is latter days, latter years. Ezekiel 39 provides the framework for the 7 years that precede Jesus's return (first chart). And there are 15 time of the end events timeframes in the bible that fit in that 7 years (second chart). So the partial preterist view is incorrect.

 

[David in NJ]

If the last or final or concluding day is the second coming, how can you have more days, weeks and years after that?

Ah - so you think you have me on that = no chance!

The answer to your question is in the Gospel.

 

[Archie]

@Archie

Ezekiel 38-39 is latter days, latter years. Ezekiel 39 provides the framework for the 7 years that precede Jesus's return (first chart). And there are 15 time of the end events timeframes in the bible that fit in that 7 years (second chart). So the partial preterist view is correct.

View attachment 75117


View attachment 75118

I'm sorry brother, its hard to read your chart on my little phone. It looks similar to the timeline Brother Andy has in the second video posted below. If you would be so kind to check out his timeline and point out where you agree or disagree it would be greatly appreciated.