God has only got one chosen people

[Marilyn C]

Are you questioning Jesus's understanding of Zechariah 13:7 which has the same timing of Zechariah 13:8-9?

Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. 33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. 34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Yes. When the Lord, the shepherd was struck then God`s timeline for Israel halted. It will start again when He opens up the fountain for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the land. (Zech. 13: 1 & 2) As I previously noted. That has NOT happened yet.

 

[Marilyn C]

You negate a literal rendering of every orginal word and every end-time passage we discuss. You should write your own Bible to sustain your error.

What the Bible attributes to the end is climactic. Hello! This is when the kingdom is given over to the Father by Christ. All rule and authority is eliminated. This forbids Pretrib and Premil.

Twist Scripture all you want but your doctrine has been torched on this board.

Sadly, you have no shame. Sad!

The New Testament is written in Greek. That is what we need to look up not just some translator's efforts. Note that various translators can have different English words for the same Greek word. That is NOT twisting scripture BUT going to the SOURCE.

 

[WPM]

The New Testament is written in Greek. That is what we need to look up not just some translator's efforts. Note that various translators can have different English words for the same Greek word. That is NOT twisting scripture BUT going to the SOURCE.

Not true. You are butchering the word to fit what you have been taught. The unindoctrinated Bible student should have no difficulty in understanding the meaning and weightiness of the phrases/events “the beginning” and “the end.” That is because they actually mean what they say. These expressions are often used on their own throughout Scripture because the Holy Spirit evidently expects the believer to understand their meaning with little explanation. He expects us to take Him literally at His Word and accept these plain and obvious statements at face value.

Whether one is reading a book, watching a movie, or observing a ball-game, the concept of “the beginning” and “the end” of something is too obvious to even debate or explain. Hello! It is as clear as clear can be. We are talking about basic 101 comprehension.

To fully understand “the end” it is important to be fully informed about “the beginning.” We need to start off by realizing that one is the complete antithesis of the other

Solomon declared in Ecclesiastes 3:11: “He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh] to the end [Heb. sôph].”

No one would think of interpreting this in any other way but it’s plain straightforward translation: the beginning is the beginning and the end is the end. These two highlighted Hebrew words contrast two completely diverse events, one relating to the commencement of creation and the other to the conclusion. So, rô'sh and sôph cover these two great realties.

Isaiah 46:9-10 uses two other Hebrew words that are more commonly used in the Old Testament. The text reads: “I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end [Heb. achărı̂yth] from the beginning [Heb. rê'shı̂yth], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying.”

This contrast is extremely useful in that it gives us a sense of the two antithetical events – it gives us the two divergent realities. It also supplies us with two suitable Hebrew words for the same.

It is the same in the New Testament. Jesus teaches in Revelation 22:6: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos].”

Jesus said in Revelation 22:13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning [Gr. archē] and the end [Gr. telos], the first [Gr. protos] and the last [Gr. eschatos].”

It is not hard to grasp the import of this teaching. Firstly, Alpha (Α or α) and omega (Ω or ω) are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. These sum up the divine character of Jesus. Next, we are confronted with the words “first” and “last.” The English words are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other. Frequently they are found in the same verse and in the same setting to relay opposites. Also, we are told that Christ is “the beginning and the end.” Again, it is not hard to get our heads round this. He is from start to finish.

Would an objective Christian question the meaning of “the beginning” and “the end” here? Of course not! It is as plain as day in its import and context.

The Old Testament prophets and the New Testament writers frequently referred to the beginning of creation, this world, time, and life as simply “the beginning” and the termination of time, the removal of the bondage of corruption and the introduction of the new eternal state as “the end.”

 

[WPM]

The New Testament is written in Greek. That is what we need to look up not just some translator's efforts. Note that various translators can have different English words for the same Greek word. That is NOT twisting scripture BUT going to the SOURCE.

When man fell, all creation experienced the awful consequences of that tragedy and fell with him. The curse upon man caused the curse to fall upon this earth. The curse upon both is equally lifted simultaneously when Jesus returns. This is the concluding event in history.

• So, what event does Scripture identify the end of this current natural creation with?
• What event does Scripture identify the end of natural human life with?
• What event does Scripture identify the end of time with?

What event does Scripture identify “the end” with? When is the last [Gr. eschatos] or final day? Remember, we are currently in “the last days” (plural), since the First Advent. When is “the last day” (singular)?

By the way, the end of anything (in the original languages of Scripture, or in any language) is the point where it terminates or stops. It is the final object or purpose.

It is not just that much Scripture depicts the second coming as “the end of the age/world,” it is that it labels it as “the last day” or simply “the end.” The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last (or final) day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

Significantly, in all the references re the last day, the wording in the original for “last day” is always identical – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

When Jesus returns it is all over. It is the end! Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the New Testament. They are synonymous with each other. In fact, there are numerous predictions and prophecies in the sacred text that point towards the end of the world coinciding with the coming of Christ.

There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage like 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.

Jesus delivers up the kingdom to His Father is at the end of the age/world when He returns. Jesus caught in Matthew 13:40-43: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end [Gr. sunteleia] of this world (or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Matthew 13:40-43 corresponds with 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. They prove that the glory and fullness of the kingdom is experienced by God’s elect at the second coming. Both of these passages show that Jesus will return at “the end.” The Greek word used in Matthew 13:40 for “the end” is sunteleia meaning the entire completion or consummation of a dispensation. The word telos is coupled with and prefixed to the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

No one can dispute that that he coming of the Lord is connected here to “the end.” We can see here how the phrases “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the end” are depicted as synonymous. This is in keeping with the rest of Scripture that depicts the second coming as a climactic event that ushers in the conclusion of time. Within this teaching is a comforting promise for every child of God that that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”

When Christ comes the gifts will be rendered unnecessary. They will be obsolete. We shall then be perfected and will have no need to operate in any gift. Christ will be all-in-all.

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

God’s people will be establish to the end when Jesus comes and rewards them for their labors.

In Matthew 24, Jerusalem was on the cusp of experiencing utter destruction, including the removal of their temple (the center of their religious worship). Moreover, that loss would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The disciples asked two questions in Matthew 24 as they stood in front of the still-standing temple complex.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming [Gr. parousia], and of the end [Gr. sunteleías or completion, or consummation] of the world [Gr. aion]?”

The word telos, used in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24, is also found in the above passage being coupled to, and prefixed with, the popular Greek word sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness. The word carries the overall meaning of the entire end.

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming. Notwithstanding, there is much detail about the days that precede His return.

1 Peter 1:13 uses a similar Greek word to describe the end (teleiōs). He in turns connects that to the coming of Christ: “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end [Gr. teleiōs] for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation [Gr. apokalupsis] of Jesus Christ.”

The first thing we see here is that the revelation of Jesus Christ at His return is expressly identified with “the end.” The second thing that we see here is that God’s people will be here to the end. We are exhorted to be watching and waiting for this great glorious impending climactic day.

Jesus’ response to His disciples in Matthew 24:6 and 13-14 is notable: “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end [Gr. telos] is not yet ... But he that shall endure unto the end [Gr. telos], the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [Gr. telos] come.”

“The end of the age” is “the end.”

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

What 'end' do you assume is being meant here? It seems to me that one is not rewarded with power over the nations until they have first overcome and kept His works until the end. And if the end is meaning the end of their life, for example, it makes sense per Amil exactly how, that they are then rewarded with power over the nations after they died, when Amil doesn't even believe in a period of time, meaning the millennium in this case, is required after Christ has returned in order for them to exercise this authority over the nations?

@WPM cannot understand that Paul is once again saying that Jesus will put an end to all this world's fallen human rule and authority and power, because @WPM has it linked to 2 Peter 3:10, which he misinterprets, having shown himself unable and unwilling to compare scripture with scripture when he reads it.

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

(I can quote the entire lists of all the verses using all these words but it will take many posts)

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

2. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

3. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed, for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

4. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near";

OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly).

OR in reference to a time that has passed.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly". If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

II Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

Given the meaning that the same words used in 2 Peter 3:7-10 have when they are used throughout the rest of the New Testament, how likely is it that Peter was referring to the burning up of the chemical elements of the earth and of the universe, and of God's works of creation?

Jesus created all things and where He says in Revelation 21 that He will make all things new the word used there does not mean to newly create something - it means to make all things created by Him, new.

There's a lot of scripture that is ignored by @WPM in order to fit his millennium into something that precedes the return of Christ, so He will quote Paul saying that when Jesus returns He will put an end to all rule and authority and power - after WPM has already taken that to mean and include Christ's rule and authority and power and the rule of those whom He promised would rule the nations after He has returned.

He must do so in order to attempt to force scripture to comply with Amil theology - a theology which he has shown by his posts in this board that he has based his faith in equally as much as He has his faith based in the gospel (because in his mind he has both the gospel and the false doctrine of Amillennialism - with its other false theology which it has created - linked with the Bible). Problem of course is that the theology of Amillennialism is false and the Bible does not teach it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Who are God’s chosen people today? To whom pertain the promises of God under the new covenant? Who are the rightful inheritors of the blessings of God in our day? Does God have more than one people?

This is a truly shallow approach to an otherwise good subject. Not all Premills are Dispensationalists. And not all Premills would deny that God has any other than a single people, namely Christians. I'm not sure that many Dispensationalists would deny there are more than just Christian "chosen people" either.

So, really you're oversimplifying simply to argue something that I don't see as relevant. Most all agree that Christ is the exclusive path to Salvation. Therefore, God's only Chosen People are Christians. But that doesn't mean that Christianity cannot be broken down into sub-groups, or smaller groups of people.

Do the Christian People--singular--include many nationalities and ethnicities? Of course. This is written into the Abrahamic Covenant, and it is confirmed in the book of Revelation. So are there more than a single people in the Church? Of course!

Dispensationalists would point out the the Jewish People are both a distinct ethnicity and a distinct nationality within the Church, once that nation has converted to Christianity. If so, then they are certainly a distinct people within the Church in the future. To say there is no "Jew or Gentile" in the language of Paul is not applicable to this point. He is just saying that qualifications for Salvation no longer depends upon being Jewish, as it was appeared to be under the Law of Moses.

Actually, the Law never did qualify the Jewish People for Salvation. It just put them in line to appropriate it when Christ appeared. Other nationalities and people had to wait until the Gospel was preached to them.

 

[Scott Downey]

Colossians 1

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;

12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [c]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

14 in whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is only one people who are of God. Peter calls them a holy nation.
Any and all other people, Christ does not know.
Why will people still keep on arguing against the Lord?
You do not have the mind of God, why would you speak for God and put words in His mouth?
We know what God has said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 13 - New King James Version

Repent or Perish - There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such...

www.biblegateway.com

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’

26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

 

[Scott Downey]

@WPM cannot understand that Paul is once again saying that Jesus will put an end to all this world's fallen human rule and authority and power, because @WPM has it linked to 2 Peter 3:10, which he misinterprets, having shown himself unable and unwilling to compare scripture with scripture when he reads it.

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

(I can quote the entire lists of all the verses using all these words but it will take many posts)

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

2. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

3. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed, for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

4. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near";

OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly).

OR in reference to a time that has passed.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly". If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

II Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

Given the meaning that the same words used in 2 Peter 3:7-10 have when they are used throughout the rest of the New Testament, how likely is it that Peter was referring to the burning up of the chemical elements of the earth and of the universe, and of God's works of creation?

Jesus created all things and where He says in Revelation 21 that He will make all things new the word used there does not mean to newly create something - it means to make all things created by Him, new.

There's a lot of scripture that is ignored by @WPM in order to fit his millennium into something that precedes the return of Christ, so He will quote Paul saying that when Jesus returns He will put an end to all rule and authority and power - after WPM has already taken that to mean and include Christ's rule and authority and power and the rule of those whom He promised would rule the nations after He has returned.

He must do so in order to attempt to force scripture to comply with Amil theology - a theology which he has shown by his posts in this board that he has based his faith in equally as much as He has his faith based in the gospel (because in his mind he has both the gospel and the false doctrine of Amillennialism - with its other false theology which it has created - linked with the Bible). Problem of course is that the theology of Amillennialism is false and the Bible does not teach it.

Jesus does say that heaven and earth pass away, and this occurs at His second coming. Which fully fits with amil.
And Christs speaks that word in every dialog of His second coming, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 21 - New King James Version

The Widow’s Two Mites - And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings...

www.biblegateway.com

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching​

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. 38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

@Zao is life , When Christ returns is the
a. Last Day
b. Resurrection of all the dead
c. Day of Judgement. the wicked cast into the fire, the righteous inherit the kingdom of their Father
d. END, then new heaven and earth

 

[Scott Downey]

The 'END' of this world (age)
Happens at the return of Christ when He raises the dead and they are judged, For ...

Revelation 22
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the [b]Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

His returns is the END, for when He comes He raises the dead and the time has come for them to be judged.
Their works are over.

The Last Enemy Destroyed​

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Mathew 24

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age​

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, [b]pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is an END yet to come for the world of men.

 

[WPM]

@WPM cannot understand that Paul is once again saying that Jesus will put an end to all this world's fallen human rule and authority and power, because @WPM has it linked to 2 Peter 3:10, which he misinterprets, having shown himself unable and unwilling to compare scripture with scripture when he reads it.

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

(I can quote the entire lists of all the verses using all these words but it will take many posts)

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

2. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

3. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed, for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

4. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near";

OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly).

OR in reference to a time that has passed.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly". If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

II Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

Given the meaning that the same words used in 2 Peter 3:7-10 have when they are used throughout the rest of the New Testament, how likely is it that Peter was referring to the burning up of the chemical elements of the earth and of the universe, and of God's works of creation?

Jesus created all things and where He says in Revelation 21 that He will make all things new the word used there does not mean to newly create something - it means to make all things created by Him, new.

There's a lot of scripture that is ignored by @WPM in order to fit his millennium into something that precedes the return of Christ, so He will quote Paul saying that when Jesus returns He will put an end to all rule and authority and power - after WPM has already taken that to mean and include Christ's rule and authority and power and the rule of those whom He promised would rule the nations after He has returned.

He must do so in order to attempt to force scripture to comply with Amil theology - a theology which he has shown by his posts in this board that he has based his faith in equally as much as He has his faith based in the gospel (because in his mind he has both the gospel and the false doctrine of Amillennialism - with its other false theology which it has created - linked with the Bible). Problem of course is that the theology of Amillennialism is false and the Bible does not teach it.

So, to basically sum up your position: the Bible should not be taken literally. It should not be taken at face value. It should not be straightforward. This sounds is very like Full Preterism. Sadly, this is what Premillennialists have to do when Scripture clearly and repeatedly forbids their narrative. They have to spiritualize away literal detail to justify error. Basically, anything goes. This is more evidence that Amils are the literalists.

When men go into error this is where they end up. Hell is not real, eternal punishment is not literal, etc etc.

Your fight is therefore with Scripture not Amils.

 

[WPM]

This is a truly shallow approach to an otherwise good subject. Not all Premills are Dispensationalists. And not all Premills would deny that God has any other than a single people, namely Christians. I'm not sure that many Dispensationalists would deny there are more than just Christian "chosen people" either.

So, really you're oversimplifying simply to argue something that I don't see as relevant. Most all agree that Christ is the exclusive path to Salvation. Therefore, God's only Chosen People are Christians. But that doesn't mean that Christianity cannot be broken down into sub-groups, or smaller groups of people.

Do the Christian People--singular--include many nationalities and ethnicities? Of course. This is written into the Abrahamic Covenant, and it is confirmed in the book of Revelation. So are there more than a single people in the Church? Of course!

Dispensationalists would point out the the Jewish People are both a distinct ethnicity and a distinct nationality within the Church, once that nation has converted to Christianity. If so, then they are certainly a distinct people within the Church in the future. To say there is no "Jew or Gentile" in the language of Paul is not applicable to this point. He is just saying that qualifications for Salvation no longer depends upon being Jewish, as it was appeared to be under the Law of Moses.

Actually, the Law never did qualify the Jewish People for Salvation. It just put them in line to appropriate it when Christ appeared. Other nationalities and people had to wait until the Gospel was preached to them.

I disagree. Dispies believe that God has two peoples - an earthly people and a heavenly people. They think His earthly people are ethnic Israel and His heavenly people are the church.

But Scripture makes clear as I have shown above: God only has one people. Race means absolutely nothing today under the new covenant.

 

[WPM]

@WPM cannot understand that Paul is once again saying that Jesus will put an end to all this world's fallen human rule and authority and power, because @WPM has it linked to 2 Peter 3:10, which he misinterprets, having shown himself unable and unwilling to compare scripture with scripture when he reads it.

2 Peter 3:10:
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up."

(I can quote the entire lists of all the verses using all these words but it will take many posts)

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used, for example:

Colossians 2:8:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [stoicheîon] of the world, and not after Christ.

Hebrews 5:12:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles [stoicheîon] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The word stoicheîon is also used in the same sense as above in Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; and Colossians 2:20.

2. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"):-

(i) In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

3. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed, for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

4. parérchomai: Used variously:-

Used for "passing by", "passing closeby", "coming near";

OR "seizing upon or to come upon" (at times suddenly).

OR in reference to a time that has passed.

In the context of the Day of the LORD coming as a thief in the night, the word parérchomai could be carrying the idea of "seizing upon, suddenly". If not, then 2 Peter 3:10 is the only verse where the word carries an entirely different meaning than in any other verse where the word is used.

II Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

Given the meaning that the same words used in 2 Peter 3:7-10 have when they are used throughout the rest of the New Testament, how likely is it that Peter was referring to the burning up of the chemical elements of the earth and of the universe, and of God's works of creation?

Jesus created all things and where He says in Revelation 21 that He will make all things new the word used there does not mean to newly create something - it means to make all things created by Him, new.

There's a lot of scripture that is ignored by @WPM in order to fit his millennium into something that precedes the return of Christ, so He will quote Paul saying that when Jesus returns He will put an end to all rule and authority and power - after WPM has already taken that to mean and include Christ's rule and authority and power and the rule of those whom He promised would rule the nations after He has returned.

He must do so in order to attempt to force scripture to comply with Amil theology - a theology which he has shown by his posts in this board that he has based his faith in equally as much as He has his faith based in the gospel (because in his mind he has both the gospel and the false doctrine of Amillennialism - with its other false theology which it has created - linked with the Bible). Problem of course is that the theology of Amillennialism is false and the Bible does not teach it.

Amils take 2 Peter 3:8-13 literally: “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens [Gr. ouranos] shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements [Gr. stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat, the earth [Gr. gē] also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens [Gr. ouranos] being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements [Gr. stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē], wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Premils see what Amils see here. This is a wholesale climactic watertight depiction of the end of the fallen universe as we know it when Jesus comes. This couldn't be worded any clearer or more vividly. Seeing this, and recognizing this, totally negates the Premil theory. Premils therefore have to do their best to explain the literal detail away. In doing so they nail the lie that they are the real literalists when it comes to Scripture. Even they know (in their heart of hearts) that they are twisting Scripture to support their pet doctrine and discarding a fundamental hermeneutical principle they boast long and loud about.

This passage is actually talking about the purging of the physical creation of all the result of the Fall in order to introduce a new perfect eternal arrangement. You have to ignore that in order to sustain Premil. This is a classic example eisegesis.

The bondage of corruption is going to be removed from creation when He appears (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The “elements” in view in 2 Peter 3 that “melt with fervent heat” when Jesus comes as “a thief in the night” obviously relate to creation. That is the context that Peter is talking about. He’s talking about the removal of the entire fallen visible physical system. The word denotes the “rudiments” of anything; the minute parts or portions of which anything is composed, or which constitutes the simple portions out of which anything grows, or of which it is compounded. We are looking at “the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe.” Here it would properly denote the component parts of the material world; or those which enter into its composition, and of which it is made up.

Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and phosphorus are believed to be the chief elements because they are the building blocks that allow life to exist. Those are the most common elements used in biology but there are several others that are also essential, like sodium, clorine, potassium, iron and magnesium.

• The earth and the works therein are speaking about our habitable globe and everything on it
• The heavens refer to our solar system.
• The elements refer to everything in between.

Albert Barnes: “Here it would properly denote the component parts of the material world; or those which enter into its composition, and of which it is made up."

 

[Zao is life]

@Zao is life , When Christ returns is the
a. Last Day
b. Resurrection of all the dead
c. Day of Judgement. the wicked cast into the fire, the righteous inherit the kingdom of their Father
d. END, then new heaven and earth

I agree with all the above but you left one out:

e. The beginning of the first age in the ages of the ages - as Jesus revealed to John in His Revelation (i.e the thousand years which commences when He returns),

which will end in a rebellion - which you do not understand because like your ancestor Adam these things are too deep for you because you conflate being alive forever [zao] (a.k.a being immortal) with the eternal life [zoe] that is in Christ, which is the only source of being alive [zao] forever, and which eternal life [zoe] we are given in Christ because only God, and the Man Jesus Christ possesses this eternal life [zoe] in Himself.

THE FIRST THREE AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE

Open (first three chapters): Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Close (last three chapters): Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Open: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Close: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

Open: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Close: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Open: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Close: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 3:21; 20:4).

Open (first three chapters):

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will not surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

In-between the opening chapters and the closing chapters:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25 - Jesus) ---​

Close (last three chapters):

1. Revelation 20:4, 5b & 6:
"Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand.

They were alive [zao] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection [anastasis - resurrection of the body from the dead].

Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

2. Satan's deception of the nations (Gog & Magog) (The first deception began with the words, "You will not surely die"):

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. *

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:7-10).

* Revelation 19:20 (previous chapter) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. The concept of being damned while alive [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture:

Matthew 10:28
"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]."

The New Testament uses the word gehennah every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul. Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul. The Greek word [geena] is always translated into English as "hell" in the KJV.

* The source of immortality (being zao - alive -forever) is the continual supply of life [zoe]. The continual supply of life is eternal life. The only source of the continual supply of life, is God, who alone has life | eternal life in Himself.

The Spirit of God is eternal life and only to the Man Jesus Christ has it been given to have eternal life in Himself. No so-called 'dead' human spirit being 'regenerated' or 'raised from the dead' is ever going to be the source of your living | being alive [zao] forever

No one can change what is written in the first three and last three chapters of the Bible. Like you, they can only distort it because they do not understand.

Your buddies will issue their usual now as they (and you) continue to mock and distort scripture after scripture to make it comply with your Amil theology.

 

[WPM]

you do not understand because like your ancestor Adam these things are too deep for you because you conflate

You are so full of yourself. The reason you belittle is because that is all you have.

 

[Zao is life]

You are so full of yourself. The reason you belittle is because that is all you have.

The reason I tell why you might once again merely belittle what is written in scripture with a is because I know that belittling is all you have.

 

[Zao is life]

So, to basically sum up your position: the Bible should not be taken literally. It should not be taken at face value. It should not be straightforward. This sounds is very like Full Preterism.

Don't make it so obvious that you need to throw out any approach to scripture that belongs to both Amillennialism and Preterism in order to pretend it's the approach of those who can see that what is written in the first and last three chapters of the Bible does not produce a thousand years before the return of Christ.

What is written in the first three and last three chapters of the Bible places the thousand years as commencing when Christ returns. Amillennialism is all about explaining away the fact by inventing reasons why what is written cannot be taken at face value.

 

[Scott Downey]

Don't make it so obvious that you need to throw out any approach to scripture that belongs to both Amillennialism and Preterism in order to pretend it's the approach of those who can see that what is written in the first and last three chapters of the Bible does not produce a thousand years before the return of Christ.

What is written in the first three and last three chapters of the Bible places the thousand years as commencing when Christ returns. Amillennialism is all about explaining away the fact by inventing reasons why what is written cannot be taken at face value.

Pre mill view goes beyond what is written; a concocted fabulation of fairy tales.

They separate the day of judgment into 2 phases, one for the Bema seat of Christ only for believers on His returning, then one at the great white throne judgment of God, 1000 years later after the second coming of Christ, which judgment then they declare is the Father judging.

BUT this is what Christ says

Bible Gateway passage: John 5 - New King James Version

A Man Healed at the Pool of Bethesda - After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed...

www.biblegateway.com

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Example right here

What is the judgment seat of Christ? | GotQuestions.org

What is the judgment seat of Christ? What is the bema seat? If all of a believer’s sins are forgiven, what is there for Christ to judge at the judgment seat?

www.gotquestions.org

The fake news follows

The judgment seat of Christ involves a time in the future when believers will give an account of themselves to Christ. This is the plain teaching of Scripture: “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10). The warning is to Christians, not unbelievers. As Jesus taught in His parable, the king is going to return, at which time he will require an account from his servants (Luke 19:11–26).

The judgment seat of Christ is different from the great white throne judgment. That will be the final judgment of the wicked prior to their being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15). Appearing before the great white throne will be unbelievers. Believers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

Then this one says there will be a 3rd coming of Christ, that is outside of the scriptures, along with a separate resurrection of the wicked.
All of this is a confused mess.

What happens at the end of the Millennium? - BibleAsk

What happens at the end of the Millennium? It marks the defeat of evil, the final judgment, and the establishment of God's eternal kingdom.

bibleask.org

The Chronological Events at the End of the Millennium​

For what takes place at the beginning and during the millennium, check: When will the 1000 years (Millennium) begin?

The third coming of Jesus with His saints (Zechariah 14:5).
The Holy city settles on the Mount of Olives, which becomes a great plain (Zechariah 14:4, 10).
The Father, His angels, and all of the saints come down with Jesus (Revelation 21:1–3; Matthew 25:31; Zechariah 14:5).
The wicked dead are raised; Satan is loosed (Revelation 20:5, 7).
The devil deceives the entire world to capture the New Jerusalem (Revelation 20:8).
The sinners surround the holy city (Revelation 20:9).
The sinners are destroyed by God’s fire (Revelation 20:9).
New heavens and earth are created (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).
The saints enjoy eternity with God on the new earth (Revelation 21:2–4).

 

[Scott Downey]

a concocted fabulation of fairy tales​

The term "fabulation" refers to the act of creating or telling a story, often with a strong element of fantasy. In the context of fairy tales, fabulation can be seen in the way tales are created and told, often involving elements of magic, wonder, and imagination. This can be seen in the way fairy tales are composed, where the storyteller may embellish or alter the original story to create a unique tale that resonates with the audience.

JSTOR+2

Fabulation can also be seen in the way fairy tales are shared and retold, where the storyteller may add their own interpretations or experiences to the tale, creating a new version that is both familiar and new to the listener. This process of fabulation can lead to the creation of a new fairy tale that is distinct from the original, yet still rooted in the magical and enchanting qualities of the original story.

JSTOR+2

In summary, fabulation is a creative process that involves the telling or creation of stories, often with a strong element of fantasy. In the case of fairy tales, fabulation can lead to the creation of new tales that are both familiar and new, reflecting the storyteller's unique perspective and the audience's imaginative response.

JSTOR+2

 

[Davidpt]

which judgment then they declare is the Father judging.

Here you are again painting Premil with a broad brush. As if you can speak for all Premils. Maybe some Premils, for all I know, might believe the Father is doing the judging in Revelation 20:11-15, I certainly don't believe that. I believe it is Christ doing the judging regardless when it is meaning.

In my view, when Christ returns, He judges the church first. Thus the sheep and goats judgment. And since He sits in His throne of glory all throughout the millennium, He is still sitting in His throne of glory when Revelation 20:11-15 is meaning after the millennium.