Ammillennialism's illegitimate redefining and switching around of the meaning of Greek words and biblical concepts
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It is you and your Premil brethren that has been avoiding. I have refuted your error repeatedly and you have no answer. Avoidance is the Premil MO. That is why it is crumbling before us. It cannot abide the Word.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Christ took dominion 2000 years ago when He ascended to the throne.
- Is Jesus “the express image of his (God’s) person,” who is “upholding all things by the word of his power” (Hebrews 1:2-3)?
- Do you believe that Christ has become "the ruler of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14)?
- Do you believe that Jesus has already "spoiled principalities and powers ... made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it (the cross)" (Colossians 2:15)?
- Do you believe that Christ “is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10)?
- Do you believe that “angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him” right now (1 Peter 3:22)?
- Do you believe that Christ is currently "the archon (or ruler) of the kings of the earth" (Revelation 1:5)?
- Is Jesus “the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting” (1 Timothy 6:15–16)?
- Do you believe that “All things that the Father hath are” Christ’s (John 16:15)?
- Do you believe that the Father has indeed given Jesus “power over all flesh” (John 17:2)?
- Do you believe that “All things are delivered” unto Jesus of His “Father” (Matthew 11:27) and that He has “given all things into his (Christ’s) hand” (John 3:35 and John 13:3)?
- Do you believe that Jesus currently possesses “All power [Gr. exousia or authority] … in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18)?
- Do you believe that the Father has given Jesus “authority to execute judgment … because he is the Son of man” (John 5:26-27)?
- Do you believe that Christ currently “openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth" (Revelation 3:7)?
- When does Christ reign? After His enemies are subdued or until His enemies are subdued (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)?
- 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 and Ephesians 1:20-23 tells us that Christ “hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet” and Hebrews 1:8 tells us that “thou hast put all things in subjection’ (aorist active indicative) under his feet.” How could anyone therefore deny He is sovereignly reigning over His enemies now? How could anyone then relate this fulfilment to an alleged future age after the second coming?
- Do you agree that when it says in Hebrews 2:8 “For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him” that this plainly speaking about everyone who is living or has ever lived, albeit, there are enemies still being born right up until the second coming that will be placed under His feet?
I think the reason why he is so frustrated is that his thread has backfired on him. His thesis went up in a puff of smoke. He has been unable to address and rebut one counter argument. That is is because is promoting an non-corroborative extra-biblical theory.
You're the only drama queen around here. Plus a mouthpiece for Satan (the two go hand-in-glove together) with his slurs, insults, false accusations, avoidance and deflections and superimposing the things you do onto others who you do them to - but you're never a mouthpiece for Jesus. I've yet to see that come through in your human 'wisdom'.
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In my first post I should have placed
PS. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking about you. You avoid all the scriptures that negate Amil and betray the fact that you have no respect for biblical scripture by the insults and slurs and false accusations you post with the things you say, so I'm done with your and your bosom buddy @Spiritual Israelite who you have such a close bromantic relatonship with in these forums, always
one another for almost everything you say, and who is another mouthpiece for Satan who thinks that quoting and twisting scripture and adherence to an ism is being a mouthpiece for Christ.But his and your insults and false accusations against those who disagree with you and avoidance of scriptural facts that negate your ism - your faith in your ism - betray that your faith is not in the Word of God - and your words, whenever you're attacking others and telling lies about their avoidance of your 'sane' posts - whether it's @David in NJ , @Davidpt , me, or anyone else,
betray the fact that you do not have the Holy Spirit and cannot even begin to understand the things you're talking about - because these are things that only children understand - Christ's children - but those who are as adult in their mouthpiece for Satan's insults and slurs and false accusations as you are will never understand the deep things of God and need to be simply ignored.
I'm placing you and @Spiritual Israelite on ignore now - for good. So remember, when I don't answer your replies to posts I make, it's because if I'm talking about your ism religion (which is always betrayed by your religiosity), so I'm talking about you when I talk about your ism religion - not to you.
You and your bosom buddy may finish now with your final insults and false accusations and slurs while you continue to be a mouthpiece for Satan trying to imply that you're talking for Christ and His Word whenever you mouth your vain, empty and very long posts "about" His Word that show only your ignorance of it, while you mix them with insults and slurs and false accusations.
Now I've spoken to you, not about you. When I talk about the Word of God from now on I'm definitely not talking to you, or to your
bosom buddy, You're both on ignore - for good.Jesus knows about my words in this post and already knows what your words in your reply will be. He's always fully aware of your words, and mine, as well as what lies behind them - though you obviously do not believe He is. Nor do you exhibit much respect for Him with the things you say in your MO.
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Just because some, calling themselves Amill don't understand eternal security one in Christ possesses doesn't make Amillennialism a false teaching. It simply means they, like you, are not certain that Christ has given them eternal life from the moment they were born again.
In this verse (6) John is showing us there are others who are not numbered with martyred saints who are also eternally secure in Christ. Which is why he writes they are blessed and holy, have part in the resurrection life of Christ (first resurrection) and have overcome the second death. IOW ALL who remain faithful unto death in Christ, are eternally secure, and have no fear of the second death, even if they are not martyred for their faith.
Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Your problem is not with Amill David! Your problem is (1) you lack belief in the FACT that God saves to the uttermost all who come to Christ for eternal life, (2) you continue to cling to Premillennialism even though your doctrine has repeatedly been shown to be full of contradiction and confusion. You think if you can prove Amillennialism is not truth, then you've proven Premillennialism is truth! So you just keep trying to find ways to fight against biblical truth while ignoring all the inconsistencies in the doctrine(S) you think might be biblical. You're tossed to and fro with every new wind of doctrine because you refuse to believe what you cannot physically see.
It's not that you don't know what, or should I say WHO, the first resurrection is! It's been explained to you ad nauseum! There is no doubting you mentally understand how we must have part in Christ before we die to overcome the second death, and that is how man has part in the first resurrection. But you so desperately want to believe what you THINK MIGHT be truth, and the only way for you to do that is to fight against TRUTH! You will never have spiritual understanding until you stop fighting against the Word of God!
Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
I largely agree with you. Labels are not meant to obscure or replace substance; they are simply a rough shorthand for identifying a set of beliefs. Used properly, they actually aid discussion by bringing clarity rather than hiding anything. They invite light and examination instead of confusion.
Scripture presents God as a God of order, not disorder (1 Cor. 14:33). From the beginning, God entrusted Adam with naming and ordering creation—an act grounded in the fact that we are made in His image. Naming and ordering were not arbitrary; they were part of faithful stewardship.
For that reason, being reflexively opposed to naming or defining beliefs can actually undermine clarity rather than promote humility. The issue is not whether things are named, but whether they are named truthfully and carefully, always subject to Scripture.
Why in the world do you keep bringing goats up? Do you think Premils cannot read that the goats go away into everlasting punishment when Christ returns? You might then argue, there you go then, no one to populate Premil's millennium. That might be true if the goats represent all the lost in general. Except they obviously don't. Meaning anyone that comprehends how context works. No one reading the end of Matthew 24 and all of Matthew 25 , in light of chapters, such as Matthew 7, would take the goats to mean all the lost in general.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Maybe these too are meaning all the lost in general? Right? I can just picture, for example, atheists saying in that day---Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
I can just picture, for example, atheists being among those that heareth these sayings of His, but doeth them not.
Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I can just picture, for example, atheists, unbelieving Jews, etc, thus the lost in general, being the evil servant meant here, saying in his heart, my lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Then the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of. As if the lost in general would be looking for that day to begin with.
Some of you clearly don't fully comprehend how context works. So quit pretending you do.
Probably the same sort of thinking the Pharisees had. Completely lost in religiosity, not knowing the things of which they speak, but believing they do.
Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
Yesterday I was here earlier on but then my house turned into grand central and I couldn't get back to it but a few seconds at a time here or there, but largely the insults looked to come from you.
People had excellent arguments from Scripture and reason, yet you STILL have not addressed the substance of any of them. You just went on a weird copy paste rampage and then started in with over the top expressions of misplaced authority and insults.
You destroyed your own thread
Except you don't realize that Christ can be the first resurrection, and then when one is bodily raised 2000 years later, that it still makes them having part in the first resurrection. But for some bizarre reason Amils think that can only be true if a spiritual resurrection pertaining to the here and now is the only way one can have part in the first resurrection. And that when the saved are bodily raised, that does not equal having part in the first resurrection.
Spiritual resurrection pertaining to the here and now equals having part in the first resurrection.
A bodily resurrection in the future does not equal having part in the first resurrection.
Apparently then a spiritual resurrection pertaining to the here and now trumps a bodily resurrection in the future. As if a spiritual resurrection is going to allow one to live for ever and ever. Who needs to be bodily raised, right? No wonder that John only mentioned 2 resurrections in Revelation 20, except neither are meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints. And that is because a spiritual resurrection pertaining to the here and now apparently trumps a bodily resurrection in the future.
As you can see here. I can even fully agree with you that Christ is the first resurrection, and do agree He is. And still Amil makes no sense, since Amil implies that only a spiritual resurrection pertaining to the here and now equals having part in the first resurrection. While a bodily resurrection in the future does not equal having part in the first resurrection. Wow.
But if Amils were to admit that a bodily resurrection in the future equals having part in the first resurrection, the first resurrection being Christ's, why then can't Revelation 20:4-6 be pertaining to the bodily resurrection in the future? Is it because it might make Premil true in that case? I think so. IOW, doctrinal bias on Amil's part.
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We might be talking past each other brother, I often don't understand what you are getting at. But it is true that there are lot of scriptures rolling around in my head like dice that haven't come to rest yet. Only God will be able to make sense of it all for me, if He will....my own mind is not up to the task. But I believe we need to understand Rev through the lens of all the scrips that came before it, rather than try to work backwards from a wrong understanding Rev. Eg, Daniel 7 spoke of these things in Rev 20 long before Rev was given...and Jesus told the apostles that they would sit on thrones judging the tribes of Israel. Understanding that I have is that things that were prophesied belong to Israel and concerned Israel first. The early church was living in the last days of Israel and the old covenant back then before judgment came in 70 AD.
Jesus was the firstfruits....I believe it is His resurrection that we have a part in....along with the OT saints who were resurrected back then at the same time.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
LOVE your post and i AGREE with much of it = Thank You and Good Morning
LOVE this Truth which you spoke = "believe we need to understand Rev through the lens of all the scrips that came before it"
The first Script/Scripture given to us is Genesis which is the Foundation for all Truth that will follow = Revelation is dependent upon Genesis
JESUS established this Fact in His Gospel.
Before Genesis, you should go to the Gospel by which we are Saved = "All that the FATHER gives ME i will Raise UP on the Last Day"
These words of CHRIST are from Genesis and are the Foundation for Revelation and understanding chapters 19 and 20
Concerning Israel of the flesh, the Jews, they are in Darkness under Condemnation and will not be Restored and brought into CHRIST until His Second Coming = Matthew chapters 21-23 , Romans chapters 9 thru 11
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
SHALOM
They actually do! What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.
This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.
Except the thread is still going and people are still reading and the facts in the OP remain the same - and you're still posting.
Nothing is destroyed except your integrity (which is what you yourself have accomplished by your own hostility from the start, and continue with) and the fact that you have not answered the simple questions to back-up your claims.
A few Amilliennialists on this board always seek to destroy threads by the kind of trolling with hostility and insults which has been seen once again in this thread - but so far neither your hostility nor the hostility and insults of others has succeeded.
By the way, you and your hostility are on ignore now along with the other two Amil trolls who frequent almost all threads with the same MO so continue with your "puffed-up in my self-righteous religiosity (relgiousness devoid of Christian evidence) hostile ways".
It will only continue to destroy your own integrity, which you have already made a good job of doing.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
HalleluYAH Lizbeth = this TRUTH is KEY to understanding Revelation
Lizbeth, continue using the KEYS of TRUTH as you pray and allow the Holy Spirit to show you how those Keys Work
GOD chooses the lowly and the despised to Reveal His Glory in these lowly vessels that the world despises.
He offers to us the Guidance of the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Truth, that we may Know Him who has called us out of Darkness
Which you have AND now will be even more in love with His Word = this is our Growth UPwards in HIM
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
@Hazelelponi
Good Morning and Blessings from the LORD Jesus Christ be upon us Today as we seek to Hear His Voice in His Word.
Look at my posts directed to us and if you see any discrepancy from Scripture, please respond = thank you
Good Morning and Blessings from the LORD Jesus Christ be upon us Today as we seek to Hear His Voice in His Word.
Look at my posts directed to us and if you see any discrepancy from Scripture, please respond = thank you
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Rev 20 is highlighting how since the first resurrection of Jesus, Hades has been defeated. The redeemed go immediately upon death into the presence of Jesus to reign with Christ until the second coming.
Hell had no more hold upon the redeemed. New Testament Scripture show the dead in Christ now populating heaven instead of Hades. Hades (Abraham's bosom) has been emptied of God’s elect since Christ conquered it. The dead were raised from Hades in spirit and are now reigning with Jesus. But physical resurrection (the final part of the redemptive process) does not occur until Jesus comes to raise the living and the dead at His one final future climactic coming.
Jesus was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
Christ defeated Satan who held the keys of death and of Hades. Christ now holds these. That authority has been taken from the devil. Satan and his power were seriously damaged at the cross. Christ secured these crucial keys of authority over death and hell through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Death and Hades are now defeated. Sin has been paid in full. The grave has been conquered. God’s people who die now go straight to be with Jesus.
Death and Hades have been wholly conquered. Satan can no longer keep God's people in the bondage of death. Christ has defeated death. When someone encounters Christ, they experience eternal life, and they shall never die. When Jesus comes the last vestige of death - physical death – is banished forever.
Christ currently holds the keys of Hades and of death, and Satan cannot snatch them out of His hand. He holds the keys because they belong to Him. He possesses all authority in heaven and on earth. That includes power over life and death.
Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
Through the Fall, man gave Satan rights that he didn’t previously own. Satan was able to enslave man from birth and imprison him in an awful spiritual prison. The human race had no longer power over Satan. Mankind was incapable of freeing itself from the stranglehold of Satan. The kingdom of darkness operated in that stolen territory thereafter.
Basically, when man sinned all mankind was handed over to Satan to remain in a gloomy state of enslavement. Satan acquired spiritual rights over the human race he hitherto never held.
In Old Testament times, Satan had the power of death, but now, since the First Advent, Christ possess that because Christ defeated death and bound Satan from keeping the world from hearing the Gospel. Death has lost its sting. The grave has lost its victory.
Praise the Lord, the grave has been defeated. Man, today, need not superstitiously dread a devil that once possessed the dark “power of death” and who used that weapon to devastatingly terrorize and ensnare the heathen nations. They need no longer walk in awful bondage and fear. They must simply turn to the Cross of Jesus where their freedom was bought. He can therefore no longer keep liberated believers in bondage to the fear of death but instead gives them hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:10 says, “our Saviour Jesus Christ … hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”
Christ legally “abolished death” forever through his sinless life, atoning death and victorious resurrection. Here, life sprung out of death. Whilst Calvary witnessed a great eternal victory over death, the termination of this central feature of the curse will only be finally eliminated at the coming of the Lord.
Christians no longer need to fear death anymore. It has no hold over them. Our Lord confronted this dark enemy and overcome it, opening up heaven to the dead in Christ through His eternal victory. Death has lost its sting. The grave has lost its victory. Hades has been emptied of the redeemed. Jesus has conquered death so that when we die, we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. There is no separation between the redeemed (dead or alive) and their Lord.
1 John 3:18 states “The Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
Satan had exercised that Adamic authority since the fall. Now it was time for the last Adam to grasp it back. As man’s representative, Christ had to take upon Himself human flesh to meet the devil on his own playing field. He had to take back all that was lost in the Garden. In this, Christ lived the life that Adam couldn’t live. Christ came to live the life man couldn’t live and pay the debt that man could never pay. By Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrected He defeated the authority of Satan and took back all that belonged to Adam. Satan has been stripped of his legal authority to control the nations.
Colossians 1:13 tells us that God has “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”
Revelation 1:18 records Christ’s well-known encounter with John on the Isle of Patmos, after the cross, where He significantly appears with the symbolic keys or authority of hell and of death.
Many today are worried about dying. But Jesus has conquered death so that when we die we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. There is no separation between the redeemed (dead or alive) and their Lord.
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