Ammillennialism's illegitimate redefining and switching around of the meaning of Greek words and biblical concepts

[amigo de christo]

 

[amigo de christo]

TO the trenches david and all .

 

[rwb]

Man before salvation is spiritual dead.

I used to believe like you, but then I realized teaching man before salvation is spiritually dead does not make sense. Because a dead spirit cannot give man physical life.

How can man before salvation be spiritually dead while physically alive? It is the spirit that gives life. If man before salvation is spiritually dead they would be a corpse. Resurrection is for a corpse, not for man's spirit. That's why man must be born again, not spiritually resurrected.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The body of man is first formed, and the spirit makes the body physically alive, living soul. As long as man remains a living soul with body and spirit they do not need to be resurrected to have eternal life. They must be born again, and that is not through resurrection, but through new birth when the Holy Spirit enters into man.

Are we spiritually dead or alive before salvation?

Man is physically alive before salvation with body, physically alive through spirit, complete living souls. We would not be living souls without a living body and living spirit. Unsaved man doesn't need to be resurrected to know and enter the Kingdom of God. Our spirit that is alive needs to be quickened by the Holy Spirit not to have spiritual life, but that we may know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven by being born again, not by being spiritually resurrected. Why? Because before salvation our living spirit was working in children of disobedience walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. For that reason, through the Spirit of Christ we must be born again that we are no longer destined to die in our sins. Through the Spirit of Christ in us our spirit then understands how rich in mercy and love God has for us, and we are no longer destined to death, but eternally alive through Him, being joined together with Christ eternally.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

[Zao is life]

I mean, from a thematic and narrative standpoint, I actually agree with you regarding the lexical definitions in Revelation 20. If we appeal to Thayer, the lexicon does indeed define ζάω in the context of Revelation 20:4–5 as being restored to life from a state of death—that is, a return to life in contrast to being dead.

As Thayer notes (citing Meyer):



Lexically speaking, ζάω in this passage does carry resurrection language. On that point, there is no dispute. But this is precisely where the real interpretive question lies—and it is the one your argument must actually address. Revelation 20 is a vision. The decisive issue is not what ζάω can mean lexically, but how the vision itself is intended to communicate meaning.


So the question is this:
Is Revelation 20 meant to be read as a rigidly literal description of physical events, or as a symbolic apocalyptic vision using concrete imagery to convey theological realities?

If the vision is intended to be read in a strictly literal manner, then yes—your conclusion follows. But if the vision is symbolic, then the mere presence of resurrection language does not, by itself, demand a literal, physical resurrection at that point in redemptive history.

In other words, the lexical meaning of ζάω does not settle the debate. Apocalyptic literature regularly employs the language of life, death, resurrection, thrones, and reigns symbolically, even when the terms themselves are quite concrete.

Thus, while the thematic narrative of the vision depicts the dead “living” and reigning with Christ for a thousand years, the interpretive question remains whether that “living” must be pressed into a literal, physical framework—or whether it functions symbolically within the visionary genre of Revelation.


That is the issue that must be addressed.

Here's a comprehensive list of all New Testament verses using the word zao. Tell me which ones are speaking figuratively about physical life (or referring to humans who are not literally physically alive) (aside from Revelation 20:4, because you have already answered that one).

 

[marks]

In other words, the lexical meaning of ζάω does not settle the debate. Apocalyptic literature regularly employs the language of life, death, resurrection, thrones, and reigns symbolically, even when the terms themselves are quite concrete.

I would disagree with you regarding the characturization of the Revelation as being of the Hebrew Apocalyptic genre, it's not. That was a genre of writing produced from purely human sources.

The Revelation is for the most part narrative prophecy, and speaks of actual events. Some things are symbol, certainly, but I suggest relying on the prophecy itself to let you know which are symbols and what those symbols mean.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I used to believe like you, but then I realized teaching man before salvation is spiritually dead does not make sense. Because a dead spirit cannot give man physical life.

How can man before salvation be spiritually dead while physically alive? It is the spirit that gives life. If man before salvation is spiritually dead they would be a corpse. Resurrection is for a corpse, not for man's spirit. That's why man must be born again, not spiritually resurrected.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The body of man is first formed, and the spirit makes the body physically alive, living soul. As long as man remains a living soul with body and spirit they do not need to be resurrected to have eternal life. They must be born again, and that is not through resurrection, but through new birth when the Holy Spirit enters into man.


Man is physically alive before salvation with body, physically alive through spirit, complete living souls. We would not be living souls without a living body and living spirit. Unsaved man doesn't need to be resurrected to know and enter the Kingdom of God. Our spirit that is alive needs to be quickened by the Holy Spirit not to have spiritual life, but that we may know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven by being born again, not by being spiritually resurrected. Why? Because before salvation our living spirit was working in children of disobedience walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. For that reason, through the Spirit of Christ we must be born again that we are no longer destined to die in our sins. Through the Spirit of Christ in us our spirit then understands how rich in mercy and love God has for us, and we are no longer destined to death, but eternally alive through Him, being joined together with Christ eternally.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I used to believe like you, but then I realized teaching man before salvation is spiritually dead does not make sense. Because a dead spirit cannot give man physical life.

The spirit of man is dead, his soul and flesh is that which is breathing and interacting with this world.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (KJV) And you who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Zao is life]

I think it can be helpful to look at the words in the original languages, as you are doing here, since English is a more limited and less nuanced language, as long our reliance is on the Holy Spirit to illuminate His word to us.

Thank you. You gave a respectful answer. Thank you very much for that.

.....are you saying Amillennialists don't believe in a bodily resurrection?

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying they replace verses talking about the quickening of the body and being physically alive with the quickening of the human spirit and being spiritually alive wherever their doctrine requires it (so not in all verses / passages, but where Amil doctrine requires it to make verses and passages comply with Amil).

I changed Post # 2 in this thread to make it clearer what I'm saying.

I've come to understand what Jesus meant when He said that the kingdom of Christ does not come with observation that we may say lo here it is, or there, but is within/among us. It is a spiritual/heavenly kingdom, not earthly.

I understand what you are saying because I know and believe and experience the reality of what He said when He said His Kingdom is within us and also said He is within us,

and I also know that therefore as long as there are saints in this world His Kingdom is IN the world but as He said to Pilate, His Kingdom is not OF this present time of this world.

And Jesus began ruling and reigning it two thousand years ago. After His resurrection He testified that all power/authority (rulership) in heaven and earth had been given to Him

Yes I agree but we ought not to forget some parts of scripture while remembering only some other parts. Hebrews also tells us that though all things have already been placed under His feet, in this present time we do not "see" it yet - just as Jesus told Pilate, His Kingdom is not of this present time of this world.

IMO this does not mean that all authority in heaven and on earth has not already been given Him. He has chosen not to use all of it yet - that's why we wait for His return.

And we will be resurrected bodily in the resurrection, (like Jesus was and became a quickening spirit)....and will be like the angels, as He also said, becoming ministering spirits and having spiritual bodies like them.

He never said we would become ministering spirits like the angels are. Paul said the body (soma ) that died is the seed of the body (soma) that is spiritual:

"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

* The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
* The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

It's a resurrected and spiritual body that is being spoken about, which angels do not have - they are spirits. What Jesus said when He said we will be like the angels was not that we wold be ministering spirits like they are. All He said when He said that was that we (the men) will not be marrying and the women will not be given in marriage - but we will be alive forever like the angels are.

It was the looking for an earthly kingdom with an earthly ruler that tripped up most of the Jews back then and caused them to rule Jesus out as Messiah because He refused an earthly crown and earthly kingdom that the devil (as well as some of the people) were tempting Him with.

Paul said that they were tripped up because they sought to obtain their own righteousness through their own works of obedience to the law and could not accept Christ because of that.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
-- Romans 9.

I don't know if it's written anywhere in scripture that they rejected Him because He did not accomplish the deliverance from enemy occupation they expected the Messiah to accomplish. Today's Jews will cite that fact - but Paul only mentions their rejection of His sacrifice for their sins as the reason for their stumbling.

I'm always weary to go beyond what is written regarding anything - including the reason they stumbled - because it takes away from scripture the reason Paul gave for their stumbling.

I believe the expectation of an earthly kingdom is tripping up many Christians today and Jews as well....it has potential to lead to an earthly messiah. We are not to be looking for an earthly reign and kingdom as such, but an heavenly.....NEW heavens and NEW earth.

Will the Kingdom of Christ be in heaven or on earth in the new heavens and earth, do you think, based on what is written in the scriptures below?

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? -- Isaiah 66:1

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. -- John 2:21

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. -- Revelation 21:3

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -- Revelation 21:2.

 

[Zao is life]

Every Jew who says blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord and accepts Him, does see Him, because He is revealed to their hearts. If a national revival were to take place, that would be so wonderful, but in the meantime, it is one soul at a time.

Praise God for every Jew and Gentile soul for whom the above has happened.

I wonder if a key to understanding Rev is to realize that much of what was prophesied was to the Jew FIRST then the Gentile. Things which "were shortly to take place' in the first century already were fulfilled and did happen, culminating in 70 AD.......Jerusalem was the Mystery Babylon of that era which was judged.....but then the same pattern of prophecy would in the end of this age happen again to the Gentiles.

For me the above is interesting and confusing at the same time. Jerusalem and Rome both were and maybe still are candidates for the position - but so are all "compromised" churches. But I'm still clueless.

 

[David in NJ]

Praise God for every Jew and Gentile soul for whom the above has happened.



For me the above is interesting and confusing at the same time. Jerusalem and Rome both were and maybe still are candidates for the position - but so are all "compromised" churches. But I'm still clueless.

No more for you to be clueless = GOD works in us to break the Bread of Life in sharing the Living Word.

The Apostle John knew who Mystery Babylon is and thus he wrote 1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Remember when JESUS said to those Jews who wanted to kill Him: "you are of your father the devil"

Mystery Babylon began in Genesis = Nimrod

Mystery Babylon = Daniel chapter 2 and more

 

[Zao is life]

The spirit of man is dead, his soul and flesh is that which is breathing and interacting with this world.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (KJV) And you who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I disagree with this whole 'dead human spirit' notion

-- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [zao/chay] soul [nephesh]." -- Genesis 2:7.

Babies are born into the world with life [zoe], but that life is not eternal life [zoe aionios] because created human beings, and the descendants of those created human beings, do not have life [zoe] in ourselves.

So when the human body dies,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Solomon),

but eternal life [zoe aionios] is given in Christ (1 John 5:11-12) to those who have been born of the Spirit.

- because the only Man to whom it has been given to have life [zoe] in Himself is Christ Jesus the Lord (John 1:4; John 5:26).

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

No so-called 'dead human spirit' being "quickened" (or "regenerated from death") is going to be a source or 'another' source of life [zoe] enabling the seed of Adam to live [zao] forever. The Spirit of Christ alone is that source of life.

The body goes to the grave, the soul of the Christian to Christ, and the spirit of life back to its source.

 

[WPM]

i KNOW we are kings and priest = in the Spirit , while we are on this earth


in ERROR


You mixed truth with error

Physical DEATH remains in our bodies = people are dying everyday = both SAVED and the unsaved

Only our spirits escape eternal damnation IF we are in CHRIST

The FACT is GOD is patiently waiting until ALL whom HE desires is Placed in CHRIST for the Resurrection from the graves on earth.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down — he who accuses them day and night before our God.
They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.
And they did not love their lives unto death.


Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write,
“Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Of course. That is what Rev 20 is speaking about.

 

[David in NJ]

I disagree with this whole 'dead human spirit' notion

-- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [zao/chay] soul [nephesh]." -- Genesis 2:7.

Babies are born into the world with life [zoe], but that life is not eternal life [zoe aionios] because created human beings, and the descendants of those created human beings, do not have life [zoe] in ourselves.

So when the human body dies,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Solomon),

but eternal life [zoe aionios] is given in Christ (1 John 5:11-12) to those who have been born of the Spirit.

- because the only Man to whom it has been given to have life [zoe] in Himself is Christ Jesus the Lord (John 1:4; John 5:26).

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

No so-called 'dead human spirit' being "quickened" (or "regenerated from death") is going to be a source or 'another' source of life [zoe] enabling the seed of Adam to live [zao] forever. The Spirit of Christ alone is that source of life.

Why would you disagree with what is clear from scripture?

Ephesians said you and i were DEAD in tresspasses and sins = How can we be dead when we are breathing?

The HOLY SPIRIT is Telling everyone = GENESIS = return to GENESIS just as JESUS and the Apostles did.

And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;
for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

So Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; so they sewed together fig leaves and made coverings for themselves.

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

What part of Man is Born Again??? = Nicodemus: "Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?"

 

[WPM]

I used to believe like you, but then I realized teaching man before salvation is spiritually dead does not make sense. Because a dead spirit cannot give man physical life.

How can man before salvation be spiritually dead while physically alive? It is the spirit that gives life. If man before salvation is spiritually dead they would be a corpse. Resurrection is for a corpse, not for man's spirit. That's why man must be born again, not spiritually resurrected.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The body of man is first formed, and the spirit makes the body physically alive, living soul. As long as man remains a living soul with body and spirit they do not need to be resurrected to have eternal life. They must be born again, and that is not through resurrection, but through new birth when the Holy Spirit enters into man.


Man is physically alive before salvation with body, physically alive through spirit, complete living souls. We would not be living souls without a living body and living spirit. Unsaved man doesn't need to be resurrected to know and enter the Kingdom of God. Our spirit that is alive needs to be quickened by the Holy Spirit not to have spiritual life, but that we may know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven by being born again, not by being spiritually resurrected. Why? Because before salvation our living spirit was working in children of disobedience walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. For that reason, through the Spirit of Christ we must be born again that we are no longer destined to die in our sins. Through the Spirit of Christ in us our spirit then understands how rich in mercy and love God has for us, and we are no longer destined to death, but eternally alive through Him, being joined together with Christ eternally.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

What is it that is dead that need brought to life in an unsaved human?

 

[Zao is life]

No more for you to be clueless = GOD works in us to break the Bread of Life in sharing the Living Word.

The Apostle John knew who Mystery Babylon is and thus he wrote 1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Remember when JESUS said to those Jews who wanted to kill Him: "you are of your father the devil"

Mystery Babylon began in Genesis = Nimrod

Mystery Babylon = Daniel chapter 2 and more

Yes but .. but .. the only women ever called a harlot by God in scripture was His elect who was being unfaithful.

Notice how the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot wept and wailed over her demise when the 10 kings who hated her destroyed her?

Notice how Jesus is called the ruler of the kings of the earth in Revelation 1:5
Notice how Babylon the Great is called the ruler of the kings of the earth in Revelation 17:18?

Which are the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot?

 

[David in NJ]

I disagree with this whole 'dead human spirit' notion

-- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [zao/chay] soul [nephesh]." -- Genesis 2:7.

Babies are born into the world with life [zoe], but that life is not eternal life [zoe aionios] because created human beings, and the descendants of those created human beings, do not have life [zoe] in ourselves.

So when the human body dies,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Solomon),

but eternal life [zoe aionios] is given in Christ (1 John 5:11-12) to those who have been born of the Spirit.

- because the only Man to whom it has been given to have life [zoe] in Himself is Christ Jesus the Lord (John 1:4; John 5:26).

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

No so-called 'dead human spirit' being "quickened" (or "regenerated from death") is going to be a source or 'another' source of life [zoe] enabling the seed of Adam to live [zao] forever. The Spirit of Christ alone is that source of life.

The body goes to the grave, the soul of the Christian to Christ, and the spirit of life back to its source.

i edited Post 172 = please read again

 

[David in NJ]

Yes but .. but .. the only women ever called a harlot by God in scripture was His elect who was being unfaithful.

Notice how the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot wept and wailed over her demise when the 10 kings who hated her destroyed her?

Notice how Jesus is called the ruler of the kings of the earth in Revelation 1:5
Notice how Babylon the Great is called the ruler of the kings of the earth in Revelation 17:18?

Which are the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot?

Notice what you said to me to notice = "the kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot"

Will come back = dinner time

 

[Zao is life]

Why would you disagree with what is clear from scripture?

Ephesians said you and i were DEAD in tresspasses and sins = How can we be dead when we are breathing?

The HOLY SPIRIT is Telling everyone = GENESIS = return to GENESIS just as JESUS and the Apostles did.

And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;
for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

So Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; so they sewed together fig leaves and made coverings for themselves.

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

What part of Man is Born Again??? = Nicodemus: "Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?"

What is the result of being born of the Spirit?

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Therefore in Colossians 3:4 Paul wrote:

"When the Messiah, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

"Ye are buried with him [sunthapto] in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses." (Colossians 2:12-13) *

* Christ's dead body was quickened - not His Spirit:

"If the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:11).

So using the same Greek words in Ephesians 2:4-6 that he used in Colossians 2:12-13, Paul says,

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has * syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has * raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

* The word "has" in Ephesians 2:5-6 is past tense: Christ's dead body has (past tense) been quickened and raised, and those who belong to Him have been (past tense) quickened and raised together with Him.

"Ye are buried with him [sunthapto] in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses." (Colossians 2:12-13)

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him, and it's because (and through) the following two facts:

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 ).

Paul never conflates quickening of the resurrection of the body with quickening and resurrection of a so-called dead human spirit.

"I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (John 14:19b-20b)

Paul called this "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,

which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27),

So Paul says,

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in all the above verses.

When your body dies one day, it will go to the grave. Your soul will go to be with Christ - WHO IS YOUR LIFE. His Spirit will quicken your mortal body that died - because you have part in the quickening and resurrection of HIS body BY HIS SPIRIT IN YOU, WHO IS YOUR LIFE.

When the body of someone who is NOT born again dies, it goes to the grave. The soul goes to hades. The spirit of the life it had goes back to its only source - because

- the One God who exists from eternity unto eternity is a Spirit (John 4:24
- and the source of all existence, and all life [zoe]. The life [zoe] that is in Him is eternal life [zoe aionios].

God alone has/possesses life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:4; John 5:26).

Have you ever heard someone say, "I have eternal life because God has given me eternal life"?

Eternal life [zoe] never becomes something we have in ourselves. Of all human beings ever to have walked on the earth since Adam and Eve, only to the Son of God (the Man, Jesus Christ) has it been given by God to have eternal life in Himself (1 John 5:11-12 & John 5:26).

Eternal life [zoe] is given in Christ Jesus to the seed of created human beings (1 John 5:11-12) but it never becomes something we possess in ourselves; hence it never becomes the possession of the seed of created human beings.

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

I must go now. Will carry on with this another day.

 

[David in NJ]

What is the result of being born of the Spirit?

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Therefore in Colossians 3:4 Paul wrote:

"When the Messiah, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

"Ye are buried with him [sunthapto] in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses." (Colossians 2:12-13) *

* Christ's dead body was quickened - not His Spirit:

"If the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:11).

So using the same Greek words in Ephesians 2:4-6, Paul says,

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has * syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has * raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

* The word "has" in Ephesians 2:5-6 is past tense: Christ's dead body has (past tense) been quickened and raised, and those who belong to Him have been (past tense) quickened and raised together with Him.

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him, and it's because (and through) the following two facts:

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 ).

and because, as Jesus taught those who believe in Him:

"I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
(John 14:19b-20b)

Paul called this "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,

which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory."
(Colossians 1:27),

So Paul says,

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in all the above verses.

When the body of someone who is NOT born again dies, it goes to the grave. The soul goes to hades. The spirit of the life it had goes back to its only source.

When your body dies one day, it will go to the grave. Your soul will go to be with Christ - WHO IS YOUR LIFE. His Spirit will quicken your mortal body that died - because you have part in the quickening and resurrection of HIS body BY HIS SPIRIT IN YOU, WHO IS YOUR LIFE.

The One God who exists from eternity unto eternity is a Spirit (John 4:24
- and the source of all existence, and all life [zoe]. The life [zoe] that is in Him is eternal life [zoe aionios].

God alone has/possesses life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:4; John 5:26).

Have you ever heard someone say, "I have eternal life because God has given me eternal life"?

Eternal life [zoe] never becomes something we have in ourselves. Of all human beings ever to have walked on the earth since Adam and Eve, only to the Son of God (the Man, Jesus Christ) has it been given by God to have eternal life in Himself (1 John 5:11-12 & John 5:26).

Eternal life [zoe] is given in Christ Jesus to the seed of created human beings (1 John 5:11-12) but it never becomes something we have in ourselves; hence it never becomes the possession of the seed of created human beings.

I must go now. Will carry on with this another day.

The Gospel is written for children = EASY to receive and trust and then understand = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

Did you read post 172?

The Answer is EASY to receive from our FATHER = John 3:1-10

Nicodemus asked: "Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?" = obvious answer = No

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Where does the Second Birth take place in us according to JESUS words? = in our spirit which was dead

 

[David in NJ]

What is the result of being born of the Spirit?

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Therefore in Colossians 3:4 Paul wrote:

"When the Messiah, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

"Ye are buried with him [sunthapto] in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses." (Colossians 2:12-13) *

* Christ's dead body was quickened - not His Spirit:

"If the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:11).

So using the same Greek words in Ephesians 2:4-6 that he used in Colossians 2:12-13, Paul says,

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has * syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has * raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

* The word "has" in Ephesians 2:5-6 is past tense: Christ's dead body has (past tense) been quickened and raised, and those who belong to Him have been (past tense) quickened and raised together with Him.

"Ye are buried with him [sunthapto] in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses." (Colossians 2:12-13)

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him, and it's because (and through) the following two facts:

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 ).

Paul never conflates quickening of the resurrection of the body with quickening and resurrection of a so-called dead human spirit.

"I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (John 14:19b-20b)

Paul called this "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,

which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27),

So Paul says,

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in all the above verses.

When your body dies one day, it will go to the grave. Your soul will go to be with Christ - WHO IS YOUR LIFE. His Spirit will quicken your mortal body that died - because you have part in the quickening and resurrection of HIS body BY HIS SPIRIT IN YOU, WHO IS YOUR LIFE.

When the body of someone who is NOT born again dies, it goes to the grave. The soul goes to hades. The spirit of the life it had goes back to its only source - because

- the One God who exists from eternity unto eternity is a Spirit (John 4:24
- and the source of all existence, and all life [zoe]. The life [zoe] that is in Him is eternal life [zoe aionios].

God alone has/possesses life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:4; John 5:26).

Have you ever heard someone say, "I have eternal life because God has given me eternal life"?

Eternal life [zoe] never becomes something we have in ourselves. Of all human beings ever to have walked on the earth since Adam and Eve, only to the Son of God (the Man, Jesus Christ) has it been given by God to have eternal life in Himself (1 John 5:11-12 & John 5:26).

Eternal life [zoe] is given in Christ Jesus to the seed of created human beings (1 John 5:11-12) but it never becomes something we possess in ourselves; hence it never becomes the possession of the seed of created human beings.

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

I must go now. Will carry on with this another day.

Where does the Spirt of Christ dwell in us? = John 3:1-10 = in our spirit

That which is Spirit is spirit = in our spirit

God created us 3 Dimensional = Body , Soul , Spirit

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,
it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

The Gospel is written for children = EASY to receive and trust and then understand = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

Did you read post 172?

The Answer is EASY to receive from our FATHER = John 3:1-10

Nicodemus asked: "Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?" = obvious answer = No

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Where does the Second Birth take place in us according to JESUS words? = in our spirit which was dead

Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. When you are born of His Spirit - that is when eternal life IN CHRIST is given to you. Your spirit of life does not exist and never has existed. ALL life is of God who is the only source of life.

Adam had a body and a soul. He became a living soul when he received the spirit (breath) of God - the source of all life and all existence.

When he sinned, he lost his connection to the source of eternal life (the Spirit of God) and he stopped living forever.

As solomon told you, until Christ when Adam and all his descendants die, the body returns to the dust and the spirit to the God who gave it. Spirit = life. God is the only source of life.

The baby born into the world has life but that life is not eternal life. The souls of babies and children who die will most likely go to be with Christ, like the adults who have been born of the Spirit and have been given eternal zoe in Christ. The soul of the unsaved goes to hades when the body dies.

soul and spirit are not the same thing.

It's such a simple gospel children will be able to understand it.