ANTI-Paul live, well & going strong

[Davy]

Personally, I think the spiritual aspects can not be ignored, which points to our motivations. If someone has the Spirit they will do Good works, because they are lead by the Spirit.

Can one who is lead by the Spirit sin? No, when anyone does sin they are not following the Spirit's lead. This means they need to repent, or in other words change their mind. And in renewing the mind they come closer to the image of Christ.

My focus about the Hyper-Grace movement is mainly that, if one is led by The Spirit they will have works in Christ.

And, if one 'walks' by The Spirit, they will be dead to sin, because they won't be sinning.

However, the 'extremist' factions in Hyper-Grace go further, and wrongly preach no need for future repentance of future sin. They reject what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 & 8 about the matter that we all... still struggle with our flesh, and we all fall short of the glory of God.

Some even go so far as to blaspheme, claiming we can become our 'own' Christ. The reality per God's Word is that no one in this world except Jesus Christ can be free from sin while in these temporary flesh bodies. If that were not so, then by following Jesus we'd just be following another one of men's meaningless religious cults. This is why Apostle Paul was careful to explain the idea of how we are 'counted' perfect by being in Christ, not that we today in this flesh are already made perfect. The danger area with that is with those who think to make their flesh the future glorious type body when it won't be. Instead, the body of the world to come per Apostle Paul will be the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15.

 

[NayborBear]

Can we agree that Paul and Jesus Christ of Nazareth taught the same message?
Only difference being Christ was teaching those who already KNEW of the Living God of Israel.
While Paul was teaching those who had NO IDEA who the Living God of Israel was, let alone who Christ was!
That message from Jesus Christ of Nazareth IS: "No One Goes UNTO The Father, BUT, BY Me!"

So ya see, when Paul said or wished aloud, or commanded: "Follow me Like I follow Christ" (the Only CORRECT starting point of the believer's journey)?
He was lovingly trying to steer those to Jesus Christ of Nazaeth's message!

Sadly however? Due to the "grossly underestimations" of the strength and power of the adversary/s? (Constantine definitely included),
MEN! Not Paul! And CERTAINLY, NOT Jesus Christ of Nazareth, have muddied up the waters/made void the Word of God/ with traditions, and practices, where they have figuratively and literally, placed a "glass ceiling" upon Jesus Christ of Nazareth AND Paul's message, as to limiting how far a believer can, or is supposed to navigate! ("you can go this far!" and "NO further!"

And due to the empathy caused by "He who knows the End from the Beginning" found in the Revelation as to how the world was going to be before the "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord?" (which can be seen here:
Isaiah 28: (King James Version)
5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Has unjustly caused this "glass ceiling" from pulpits to be justified! (let's call these "ear ticklers!" Spewing forth " their "guilt trip" such as seen here:
Matthew 23: (King James Version)
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,)

So? Let us be honest here shall we?
What has REALLY changed since the days of Elijah?
NOTHING!
Save that men love THIS life, EVEN unto death! Which is also found in the Revelation.

 

[Soyeong]

Ever noticed how when some believers claims are challenged by the teachings of Paul they head for the teachings of the 12 in order to discredit Paul.
Christ made it CRYSTAL CLEAR
Paul is the Apostle AND Minister to believers today - Acts 9:10-15.
Paul himself confirmed his unique role ---------------Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
The other Apostles ALSO confirmed Paul's role------ Acts 15:6-25, Gal 2:7-9
What authority does that role give Paul ?
The Christ given authority to teach believers today (Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11) what is required to enter eternal life.
That teaching simply is Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
So believers, why do you push back against the teachings of Christ through Paul ?

In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying His law, so it is either incorrect to interpret Paul as doing that (my position) or he was a false prophet according to God, but either way followers of Christ should be followers of His example of obedience to God's law. The people who are anti-Paul are the ones who make him out to be a false prophet by interpreting him as speaking against obeying God's law.

 

[HealthyShape]

Only difference being Christ was teaching those who already KNEW of the Living God of Israel.

They did not know God. Or else they would not kill Jesus, the Son of God.

A better wording could be that Jesus was sent to circumcised and Paul to uncircumcised.

 

[rvmb]

They did not know God. Or else they would not kill Jesus, the Son of God.

A better wording could be that Jesus was sent to circumcised and Paul to uncircumcised.

Gal 2:7-9 :)

 

[Davy]

In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying His law, so it is either incorrect to interpret Paul as doing that (my position) or he was a false prophet according to God, but either way followers of Christ should be followers of His example of obedience to God's law. The people who are anti-Paul are the ones who make him out to be a false prophet by interpreting him as speaking against obeying God's law.

Keeping God's law about flesh circumcision was specifically the doctrine that Paul and Barnabas went against among the Jewish Pharisee converts, per Acts 15. So the Jewish converts did... see Paul as not keeping the law. The matter was then brought up to the Apostles in Jerusalem, and they agreed that the Gentiles should only keep the following things...

Acts 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
KJV

meats offered to idols = spiritually tainted by paganism.
from blood = we are not to eat the blood per God's law.
from things strangled = will mean eating the blood along with the meat
from fornication = from sexual intercourse outside legal marriage to include adultery.

It is also obvious that as Christians we also are to not be guilty of murder, perjury, immoral behavior, basically the things in God's law that Apostle Paul covered in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5.

And Apostle Paul never... made any claim that all foods are now made clean through Christ and prayer. Those who claim that have misinterpreted what God showed Peter with the blanket of unclean animals of Acts 10, and 1 Timothy 4:3-5. Paul specifically said, "... meats, which God hath created to be received...". That means the clean meats on God's healthy list of Deuteronomy 14; those meats God created for man to eat, and have mostly to do with animals that eat grain, and not as scavengers God created to clean the earth.

Our Liberty in Christ allows us to eat as necessary, meaning if we are invited to dinner by those who eat outside God's health law, to not complain, but eat what is put before us. Paul also said whatever is sold in the shambles (market), that eat. In other words, eat to live, and if catfish is all you got, then eat to live, but know that catfish is a scavenger fish, and unclean (even when farm raised, because it eats poisons from the bottom of the waters.)

 

[Davy]

Rev. Michael Glodo (Reformed Theological Seminary) summarizes that the hermeneutical center of Scripture is Christ, and Christ is also the historical/redemptive-historical center—the one in whom God’s purposes reach their appointed fullness (cf. Gal. 4:4-5)

If our reading of Scripture consistently sidelines Christ as the goal and fulfillment, we are not merely disputing a “method”—we’re missing the interpretive pattern the risen Lord Himself used when He taught His disciples how to read the Scriptures.

Proper hermeneutics is Christ-centered.

Yet Reformed Theology allows... the "thousand years" future reign by Lord Jesus per Revelation 20 to be interpreted either according to Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, or Amilllennialism.

By Reformed Theology not making a Biblical stand on the issue of the "thousand years" reveals problems in their theology, for there are plenty enough existing Scriptures that reveal that period will be a literal 1,000 years reign by Christ and His elect beginning at His 2nd coming. The Old Testament prophets covered that period also, just not using that phrase "thousand years".

Reformed Theology also allows erroneous traditions of men like the wicked dead are not resurrected until after the thousand years to stand in Judgment. Yet Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 that ALL IN THE GRAVES shall come forth on the day of His future coming.

 

[Soyeong]

Keeping God's law about flesh circumcision was specifically the doctrine that Paul and Barnabas went against among the Jewish Pharisee converts, per Acts 15. So the Jewish converts did... see Paul as not keeping the law. The matter was then brought up to the Apostles in Jerusalem, and they agreed that the Gentiles should only keep the following things...

It is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against obeying God for an incorrect reason without speaking against obeying God. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason, then Galatians 5:2 would mean that he caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to rough 70% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, men from Judea where wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for why God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, Gentiles who want to eat of the Passover lamb are required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles correctly acting in accordance with what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God. If they had been speaking against obeying what God has commanded, then we should consider them to be false prophets according to Deuteronomy 13 and disregard what they said.

Acts 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
KJV

meats offered to idols = spiritually tainted by paganism.
from blood = we are not to eat the blood per God's law.
from things strangled = will mean eating the blood along with the meat
from fornication = from sexual intercourse outside legal marriage to include adultery.

It is also obvious that as Christians we also are to not be guilty of murder, perjury, immoral behavior, basically the things in God's law that Apostle Paul covered in 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5.

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of what is required for mature believers or it does not, so it would be contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow. It was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers but rather it was given as a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught each Sabbath in the synagogues.

And Apostle Paul never... made any claim that all foods are now made clean through Christ and prayer. Those who claim that have misinterpreted what God showed Peter with the blanket of unclean animals of Acts 10, and 1 Timothy 4:3-5. Paul specifically said, "... meats, which God hath created to be received...". That means the clean meats on God's healthy list of Deuteronomy 14; those meats God created for man to eat, and have mostly to do with animals that eat grain, and not as scavengers God created to clean the earth.

Agreed. In Acts 10:10-14, God did not rebuke Peter for referring to what he had made clean as being unclean, but only rebuked him for referring to what He had made clean as being common and Peter interpreted his vision on three occasions as being in regard to incorrectly identifying Gentiles, yet his vision is commonly misinterpreted as if God had rebuked him for referring to what He had made clean as being unclean and as if the point of the vision was that we can now eat unclean animals.

In 1 Timothy 4:1-5, Paul described what he was speaking against as being the doctrine of demons, yet these verses are commonly misinterpreted as if Paul had been speaking against the holy, righteous, and good commands of God. I don't use the charge of blasphemy lightly but if anything is close to blasphemy then it would be suggesting that the holy, righteous, and good commands of God are the doctrine of demons.

Our Liberty in Christ allows us to eat as necessary, meaning if we are invited to dinner by those who eat outside God's health law, to not complain, but eat what is put before us. Paul also said whatever is sold in the shambles (market), that eat. In other words, eat to live, and if catfish is all you got, then eat to live, but know that catfish is a scavenger fish, and unclean (even when farm raised, because it eats poisons from the bottom of the waters.)

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the liberty that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed through His law to be sin.

 

[Soyeong]

What verses from Paul teach works/behaviour/etc are a requirement to enter eternal life ?

In Romans 2:6-7, Paul said that those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to lawlessness, impurity, and sin but are now to present ourselves a slaves to God and righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of God's law is His gift of eternal life.

Eph 1:13,

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so verses that refer to those who are in Christ like Ephesians 1:1-13 are only referring to those who are following Christ's example of walking in obedience to God's law.

1 Cor 15:1-4 - No

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

Titu 3:5,

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

Gal 2:16,

The reason why we should obey God's law has nothing to do with trying to earn our justification as the result.

Eph 2:8-9,

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast God graciously making us to be a doer of good works is nevertheless still a central part of His gift of salvation.

Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 - no
Your turn

The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being requires to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law (1 John 3:4), so it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works, and the same is true for every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31). Everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of God's law, which is how Paul can deny in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous.

 

[rvmb]

In Romans 2:6-7, Paul said that those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to lawlessness, impurity, and sin but are now to present ourselves a slaves to God and righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of God's law is His gift of eternal life.


In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so verses that refer to those who are in Christ like Ephesians 1:1-13 are only referring to those who are following Christ's example of walking in obedience to God's law.


In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).


In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.


The reason why we should obey God's law has nothing to do with trying to earn our justification as the result.


In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast God graciously making us to be a doer of good works is nevertheless still a central part of His gift of salvation.



The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being requires to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law (1 John 3:4), so it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works, and the same is true for every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31). Everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of God's law, which is how Paul can deny in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous.

-- John is not Paul.
--The request was for PAUL verses.
--Your opinions on Pauls verses are just opinions
--NONE of your Paul verses teach a saint can become UNsaved, UNsealed.
Want to try again with JUST the verses FROM Paul ?
One verse at a time to avoid confusion

 

[Soyeong]

-- John is not Paul.
--The request was for PAUL verses.
--Your opinions on Pauls verses are just opinions
--NONE of your Paul verses teach a saint can become UNsaved, UNsealed.
Want to try again with JUST the verses FROM Paul ?
One verse at a time to avoid confusion

I didm't say that John is Paul. I quoted verses from Paul with the exception of two quotes from John that I see no reason to think that he was in disagreement with. Do you think that Paul thought that someone can be in Christ while refusing to walk in the same way that he walked? If you'd prefer Romans 3:20 or Romans 7:7 to 1 John 3:4, then you can do that. In Titus 2:11-13, it describes the content of our gift of salvation a being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so if someone is participating in that training, but then renounces it by doing what is ungodly and renouncing doing what is godly, righteous, and good, then they can't be accurately be considered to be participating in that training.

 

[rvmb]

I didm't say that John is Paul. I quoted verses from Paul with the exception of two quotes from John that I see no reason to think that he was in disagreement with. Do you think that Paul thought that someone can be in Christ while refusing to walk in the same way that he walked? If you'd prefer Romans 3:20 or Romans 7:7 to 1 John 3:4, then you can do that. In Titus 2:11-13, it describes the content of our gift of salvation a being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so if someone is participating in that training, but then renounces it by doing what is ungodly and renouncing doing what is godly, righteous, and good, then they can't be accurately be considered to be participating in that training.

I did ask for Paul.
Who chose Paul ?
Acts 9:15
Did the 12 know ?
Acts 15:6-25, Gal 2:7-9
How is a believer SEALED & SAVED ?
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4
Conditions :-
Titus 3:5, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:21, 24-28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
So what are you disputing ?

 

[Soyeong]

I did ask for Paul.
Who chose Paul ?
Acts 9:15
Did the 12 know ?
Acts 15:6-25, Gal 2:7-9
How is a believer SEALED & SAVED ?
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4
Conditions :-
Titus 3:5, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:21, 24-28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
So what are you disputing ?

Please interact with what I said.

 

[rvmb]

Do you think that Paul thought that someone can be in Christ while refusing to walk in the same way that he walked?

""Do you think that Paul thought that someone can be in Christ while refusing to walk in the same way that he walked?""
Do you believe you ""walk"" the same way as Christ did?
Want to take a simple test to see if you do ? :)

 

[Soyeong]

""Do you think that Paul thought that someone can be in Christ while refusing to walk in the same way that he walked?""
Do you believe you ""walk"" the same way as Christ did?
Want to take a simple test to see if you do ? :)

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, which is true regardless of whether or not I happen to be doing that. If I were not, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded.

 

[rvmb]

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, which is true regardless of whether or not I happen to be doing that. If I were not, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded.

Mark 12:31 Love your neighbor as yourself
When was the last time you housed a homeless stranger in your own home that you live in until they found somewhere to live ?

 

[Soyeong]

Mark 12:31 Love your neighbor as yourself
When was the last time you housed a homeless stranger in your own home that you live in until they found somewhere to live ?

Even if I were actively trying to commit as much sin as possible, then it wouldn't mean that I was wrong about the fact that we should love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[rvmb]

Even if I were actively trying to commit as much sin as possible, then it wouldn't mean that I was wrong about the fact that we should love our neighbor as ourselves.

You've NEVER walked past OR SEEN a homeless person ?

 

[Soyeong]

You've NEVER walked past OR SEEN a homeless person ?

Again, what I happen to be doing doesn't change whether anything that I've said is true.

 

[rvmb]

Again, what I happen to be doing doesn't change whether anything that I've said is true.

In what way did you repent the last time you walked past or saw a homeless person and did nothing ?