Overview time line chart of the 7 years

[Douggg]

He doesn't say "day of the Lord" He is referencing the context of his previous letter. They were troubled because someone told them the day is at hand and could happen anytime.


This is what he is referring to
1 Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He said this in reference to it.

2 Th 2:1-3

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(here he is referencing the coming of the Lord

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.(don't be troubled because that day cannot happen at any time, there are things that must happen first)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(Here he tells them what must happen first)



You will never persuade me to go back and believe the pre-trib myth I held for so many years. I hoped to persuade you by showing what the scriptures mean but you keep spinning them to your paradigm. I think it's best to agree to disagree. Once evidence like this is so clearly rejected things tend to get ugly.

1Thessalonians5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1Thessalonians5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?

That verse relates directly to being comforted about the fact that we are not appointed to God's wrath and "obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" instead.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

Are you accusing him of believing that Christians will experience God's wrath? I'm pretty sure he never made any such claim.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have been doing this 40 years my friend

No one cares. That just means you have been teaching false doctrine for a long time. There are plenty of people who have been doing this for 40 years who disagree with you, so why do you even mention that? It means nothing in terms of knowing the truth.

, it takes grunt work and an ability to hear the holy spirits silent correction. When I hear it I know it, the holy spirit bears witness.

That's what we all believe about ourselves, but we don't all agree. Som are hearing hearing some other spirit or just have active imaginations.

I wrote a blog on this nigh 10 years ago. It was never apostacy, just like gay in the 1930s meant happy. The first 10 English translations had DEPARTURE not a Falling Away. The KJV translators did this to take a swipe and their contemporary "foe" the RCC,

Is the Falling Away an erroneous teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the "true church can Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth as The Beast. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1100 some odd years at the time the KJV was written.

This is just a case of going far out of your way to deny the truth. A mass falling away (apostasy) is something you would expect to happen during a time when evil is no longer restrained. You are taking 2 Thessalonians 2:3 completely out of context. Jesus spoke of a mass falling away happening before His return as well.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Paul was speaking of this same kind of thing in 2 Thessalonians 2. That should be obvious to anyone who is not being influenced by doctrinal bias, as you are.

 

[Douggg]

Are you accusing him of believing that Christians will experience God's wrath? I'm pretty sure he never made any such claim.

In my post #241, what I wrote was....."Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

What he wrote in his post #234....

"The rapture happens at the second coming. As does the resurrection."

So he believes Christians will go through the great tribulation. I don't think that is something comforting to any Christian.

 

[covenantee]

I have been doing this 40 years my friend, it takes grunt work and an ability to hear the holy spirits silent correction. When I hear it I know it, the holy spirit bears witness. I wrote a blog on this nigh 10 years ago. It was never apostacy, just like gay in the 1930s meant happy. The first 10 English translations had DEPARTURE not a Falling Away. The KJV translators did this to take a swipe and their contemporary "foe" the RCC,

Is the Falling Away an erroneous teaching?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the "true church can Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth as The Beast. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1100 some odd years at the time the KJV was written.

That's been debunked innumerable times.

The Bible translations to which you refer were all written by Reformation scholars during the Reformation era, when they were being persecuted and martyred by the antichrist of the apostate papacy.

No Reformer ever heard of a mythical "rapturized" departure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my post #241, what I wrote was....."Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

What he wrote in his post #234....

"The rapture happens at the second coming. As does the resurrection."

So he believes Christians will go through the great tribulation. I don't that is something comforting to any Christian.

You referenced a verse, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, which relates to being comforted in terms of not being appointed to God's wrath. So, you are coming across as if you are accusing him of believing that Christians are appointed to God's wrath.

But, this is all pointless unless you tell us how you define "the great tribulation". So, please do that and then the discussion can continue. When people don't define terms it causes unnecessary confusion.

 

[Douggg]

You referenced a verse, 1 Thessalonians 5:11, which relates to being comforted in terms of not being appointed to God's wrath. So, you are coming across as if you are accusing him of believing that Christians are appointed to God's wrath.

You are trying to change what I wrote in my post # 241, which is...."Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

The great tribulation will be a time of trouble that the world has never experience before, nor afterwards.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is set up in the holy place, the temple mount. And ends when the abomination of desolation statue image, that will breathe and speak, is destroyed, removed, from the temple mount.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are trying to change what I wrote in my post # 241, which is...."Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

I'm not trying to change anything. Why would I do that? I wouldn't. How about you learn how to communicate more clearly? Why would you think that he would define "the great tribulation" the same as you do? Not everyone has the same understanding of what "the great tribulation" entails, so how about being more specific? Is that too much to ask? That would make it much less likely that anyone would misrepresent what you're intending to say.

The great tribulation will be a time of trouble that the world has never experience before, nor afterwards.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is set up in the holy place, the temple mount. And ends when the abomination of desolation statue image, that will breathe and speak, is destroyed, removed, from the temple mount.

So, you don't associate the great tribulation with God's wrath? If so, why did you reference 1 Thessalonians 5:11 when asking him "Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe?". Do you not understand that 1 Thessalonians 5:11 relates to being comforted about not being appointed to God's wrath? What does that have to do with your question that you asked him if you don't equate "the great tribulation" with God's wrath?

 

[Douggg]

So, you don't associate the great tribulation with God's wrath?

The great tribulation will include God's wrath, and Satan's wrath, and all sorts of wickedness carried out by men themselves. Who is doing the beheading during the great tribulation ? Who is limiting buying or selling without the number of the beast, his name, his mark ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The great tribulation will include God's wrath, and Satan's wrath, and all sorts of wickedness carried out by men themselves.

Since you include God's wrath as being part of the great tribulation then the question you asked shepherdsword, which was "Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?", implies that you are asking him if it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through God's wrath (and other things). That means you are accusing him of believing that Christians are appointed to God's wrath. But, I'm pretty sure he does not believe that, so you're making a false accusation by asking him that question.

 

[Douggg]

Since you include God's wrath as being part of the great tribulation then the question you asked shepherdsword, which was "Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?", implies that you are asking him if it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through God's wrath (and other things). That means you are accusing him of believing that Christians are appointed to God's wrath. But, I'm pretty sure he does not believe that, so you're making a false accusation by asking him that question.

I don't think it necessary to define the great tribulation to someone who believes that the resurrection/rapture takes place at Jesus's second coming.

You are trying to twist, change, what I wrote in my post #241. Just stop.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't think it necessary to define the great tribulation to someone who believes that the resurrection/rapture takes place at Jesus's second coming.

Yes, it is necessary. Since you include God's wrath as part of the great tribulation then you come across as if you are asking someone who doesn't believe that Christians will experience God's wrath if they believe that it's comforting to Christians to know they will experience God's wrath, which is not an appropriate question to ask such a person.

You are trying to twist, change, what I wrote in my post #241. Just stop.

No, I am not. I explained how your question comes across and I am not trying to twist or change anything you wrote. Stop lying.

 

[Douggg]

Since you include God's wrath as part of the great tribulation then you come across as if you are asking someone who doesn't believe that Christians will experience God's wrath if they believe that it's comforting to Christians to know they will experience God's wrath, which is not an appropriate question to ask such a person.

No, you are trying to change what I wrote in my post #241. And also what I say the great tribulation included.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you are trying to change what I wrote in my post #241.

Why are you judging me as if you think you are God and can read my mind. No, I am not trying to change anything you wrote. If I'm misunderstanding what you wrote, it's not on purpose. Explain to me how it makes any sense to ask someone who doesn't believe that Christians will experience God's wrath if they think it would be comforting to any Christian to know they will experience God's wrath.

And also what I say the great tribulation included.

Why would I try to change that when I specifically asked you to tell us how you define that? Would I ask you to define it if I was intending to try to change what you think it includes? Of course not. I'm trying to get you to be more clear about what you're saying.

 

[Douggg]

Explain to me how it makes any sense to ask someone who doesn't believe that Christians will experience God's wrath if they think it would be comforting to any Christian to know they will experience God's wrath.

You are going in circles. I have stated over and over to you that what I wrote in my post #241 was "Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

And I have already stated...
"The great tribulation will include God's wrath, and Satan's wrath, and all sorts of wickedness carried out by men themselves. Who is doing the beheading during the great tribulation ? Who is limiting buying or selling without the number of the beast, his name, his mark ?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is your turn to define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

 

[shepherdsword]

You are going in circles. I have stated over and over to you that what I wrote in my post #241 was "Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

And I have already stated...
"The great tribulation will include God's wrath, and Satan's wrath, and all sorts of wickedness carried out by men themselves. Who is doing the beheading during the great tribulation ? Who is limiting buying or selling without the number of the beast, his name, his mark ?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is your turn to define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

Oh please, of course no one is comforted by going through the tribulation. The "comfort" spoken of in 1Th 4:18 concerns having hope for the resurrection for those who have died. THAT is the context.

1 Th 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You need to do three things;
1) Stop ripping verses of context
2) Actually deal with the arguments against your position
3) Stop asking strawman questions to dodge the issue.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are going in circles.

No, I'm not. You just have poor reading comprehension skills. But, don't worry, you're far from being the only person on this forum with that problem.

I have stated over and over to you that what I wrote in my post #241 was "Do you think it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through the great tribulation as you believe ?"

Right. So, if the great tribulation includes God's wrath, as you believe, then were you not asking him if he thinks it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through God's wrath (and Satan's wrath, etc.)? That's what it implies if you say that the great tribulation includes God's wrath, which you did. But, why would you ask that question to someone who does not believe that Christians will go through God's wrath?

 

[Douggg]

Oh please, of course no one is comforted by going through the tribulation. The "comfort" spoken of in 1Th 4:18 concerns having hope for the resurrection for those who have died. THAT is the context.

The timing of the resurrection/rapture is also in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. 1Thessalsonians5:11 is a repeat of 1Thessalonians4:18.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

You claim that the resurrection/rapture takes place at Jesus's second coming, which is at the end of the great tribulation. It is not comforting for any Christian to have to go through the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Right. So, if the great tribulation includes God's wrath, were you not asking him if he thinks it is comforting to any Christian to know that they should go through God's wrath? That's what it implies if you say that the great tribulation includes God's wrath, which you did. But, why would you ask that question to someone who does not believe that Christians will go through God's wrath?

The great tribulation includes more that God's wrath.

You present your definition of the great tribulation and what will take place during that period. Stop evading presenting your definition and what will take place during that period.

 

[ewq1938]

You need to do three things;
1) Stop ripping verses of context
2) Actually deal with the arguments against your position
3) Stop asking strawman questions to dodge the issue.

Yes, but also consider that the falling away must happen and false doctrines must be in place to make sure it happens. It's good to warn and correct, but the teachings that lead to the Apostnasty (Apostasy but I laughed at my type-o lol) must also be taught, unfortunately. You likely already know this but I was moved to say it for whoever needs to hear it.