"what shall be the sign of thy coming"

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Douggg

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In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked about what will be the sign of his coming.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In Matthew 24:29-30a, Jesus explained what would be the sign of his coming and when. The sign of his coming will be the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29 is the powers of the heavens shaken, which is what will take place in the sixth seal event.

That is when the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, that will send terror into the hearts and minds of the wicked. The sign will be Jesus, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14).


The sign of the son of man in heaven.jpg


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Truth7t7

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In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked about what will be the sign of his coming.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In Matthew 24:29-30a, Jesus explained what would be the sign of his coming and when. The sign of his coming will be the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29 is the powers of the heavens shaken, which is what will take place in the sixth seal event.

That is when the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, that will send terror into the hearts and minds of the wicked. The sign will be Jesus, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14).


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A Ghost holding a reaping sickle "LOL!
 

Douggg

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A Ghost holding a reaping sickle "LOL!
Not a ghost, but the brilliance of Jesus in His great glory.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

A preview in Matthew 17:1-2.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
 
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Earburner

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Not a ghost, but the brilliance of Jesus in His great glory.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

A preview in Matthew 17:1-2.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
I agree that the glorious appearance of Jesus, in His Immortality, will suddenly be from heaven in flaming fire KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10
 

Marty fox

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In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked about what will be the sign of his coming.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In Matthew 24:29-30a, Jesus explained what would be the sign of his coming and when. The sign of his coming will be the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29 is the powers of the heavens shaken, which is what will take place in the sixth seal event.

That is when the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, that will send terror into the hearts and minds of the wicked. The sign will be Jesus, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14).


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It’s the sign of the son of man not the son of man
 

Douggg

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It’s the sign of the son of man not the son of man
Hi Marty, Because of the reaction described in Revelation 6:16-17, Jesus Himself will appear in heaven to the inhabiters of earth.

My illustration shows Jesus only, but from verse 16, not only will Jesus be seen, but a broader view would include the throne of God. And likely the angels and saints making up Jesus's army that will accompany Him (going by what is described in Revelation 19).

What do you think ?

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 

Aunty Jane

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In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked about what will be the sign of his coming.
Actually that is a misconception.....the first “sign” Jesus gave was of his “parousia” (presence) not his “coming” (erchomai)....Christ’s “presence” and his “coming” are separate events. One at the beginning of the last days and the other at the end of them.

His “presence” was to be discerned by a series of world events that indicated that he was already here. It was a signal that his “coming” as judge of all the earth would follow in God’s due time...but first, all the features of the sign had to be in evidence. There is no point to giving a “sign” to indicate what is obviously seen by mankind, as he will be at the final judgment.

What were they?

Matt 24:3-14...NKJV...
“Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, [parousia] and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these the beginning of sorrows. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Since these things were foretold to occur at the time of his return in these “last days”...what is the evidence, and how many have we witnessed?

This period was to begin with unprecedented warfare.....the likes of which the world had never seen.
When did that happen? “The Great War” of 1914 was a war that engulfed the whole world....for the first time in history we had a “First World War”. It was followed by an epidemic of the Spanish Flu that took more lives than the war did.....food shortages were experienced on a scale never before seen as all efforts went into maintaining the military and labor shortages in turn caused food shortages.
Earthquakes have been recorded in record numbers since WW1, and continue to this day, with seismologists predicting even more frequent and damaging earthquakes. Mother Earth is heaving under man’s mismanagement.

We see a rise in hatred of one another because of religious and political differences...even among Christians. False prophets abound and deception is everywhere.....then there’s the love of neighbor and of those who once loved a person who is now their worst enemy. Love in today’s world is more about lust...transient and temporary.....genuine Christian love has almost disappeared.

But then it speaks about another sign.....the “gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come” .

This is a global preaching work that is undertaken by Christ’s disciples in these “critical” end times (2 Tim 3:1-5), under conditions that require great ‘endurance’ on their part.

So what is “this gospel of the Kingdom” and who are out in the whole world, preaching it.....with the same message in every nation...? The ones who are hated and persecuted for telling the inconvenient truth.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In Matthew 24:29-30a, Jesus explained what would be the sign of his coming and when. The sign of his coming will be the sign of the Son of man in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.
Do you see how much you have left out here? You jump from v3 to v30 thereby ignoring some very important information when identifying what Jesus actually said.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29 is the powers of the heavens shaken, which is what will take place in the sixth seal event.

That is when the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, that will send terror into the hearts and minds of the wicked. The sign will be Jesus, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14).
By the time disobedient mankind, (drowning in a sea of confusion and unresolvable conflict), see this sign....it will be too late to ‘change lanes’. The time for action was while the preaching and the other signs were in evidence.....which is right now. There will never be another opportunity as Jesus said.....it will be “just as the days of Noah” (Matt 24:37-39) when Noah was preaching to the people to warn them about what God was going to do...yet they ignored him and the colossal structure that it probably took him and his sons, decades to finish.
It was not Noah who closed the door of the ark...it was God. Once the door was closed, no amount of pleading would reverse his decision.

The people had all the “signs” they needed, but not a sole responded to Noah’s warning. He and his family, out of a whole world of mankind at that time, were “saved”....but not by God...they were saved by their obedience to his commands. It required something from them, otherwise they too would have perished. The instructions Noah was given, were precise, down to the last detail....and we too have our instructions.....but if we fail to follow them to the letter, we too could find ourselves standing on the wrong side of that door of opportunity....
 
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Marilyn C

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`Thus the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones (angels) with Him. It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It will be one day which is known to the LORD - neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light.` (Zech. 14: 5 - 7)

We know Jesus has said when He comes it will be with power and great glory, and all the holy angels with Him. I believe that this first ray and glimmer of light is emanating from the distant armies of heaven who are on their way to this sin-stricken blackened earth. Hence at evening time the light is brighter - as though there were a steady increase in this emanation of glory.

Whatever the explanation, this great blaze of effulgent glory continues to increase in intensity until, as Paul tells us, the man of sin will be destroyed (literally `paralyzed`) by the brightness of His coming; and I think not only the man of sin, but the very armies of the Beast.
 

Douggg

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`Thus the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones (angels) with Him. It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It will be one day which is known to the LORD - neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light.` (Zech. 14: 5 - 7)

We know Jesus has said when He comes it will be with power and great glory, and all the holy angels with Him. I believe that this first ray and glimmer of light is emanating from the distant armies of heaven who are on their way to this sin-stricken blackened earth. Hence at evening time the light is brighter - as though there were a steady increase in this emanation of glory.

Whatever the explanation, this great blaze of effulgent glory continues to increase in intensity until, as Paul tells us, the man of sin will be destroyed (literally `paralyzed`) by the brightness of His coming; and I think not only the man of sin, but the very armies of the Beast.
Hi Marilyn,

The kjv version for Zecharian 14:5 has "saints".

The bride of Christ in Revelation 19 are His saints, accompanying Jesus in Revelation 19:14, as His army of heaven, Revelation 19:19. Jesus coming with all his saints is also in 1Thessalonains3:13. And 1Thessalonians 2:19.

There will be holy angels of heaven that will also accompany Jesus. Likely to deal with Satan's angels that will have been cast down to earth in the middle part of the seven years. In Revelation 20:1-3, an angel from heaven will bind Satan in chains and cast Satan into the bottomless pit.
 

Douggg

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Do you see how much you have left out here? You jump from v3 to v30 thereby ignoring some very important information when identifying what Jesus actually said.
The issue is as the title of the thread says - "what shall be the sign of thy coming".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus and the disciples routinely over-nighted on the mount of Olives. That is where the disciples asked the question to Jesus about the sign of his coming.

Why did they even ask that question... ?

It was because Jesus had already spoke about his second coming in Luke 21:27 while in the temple courtyard surrounded by an audience listening to him speak (Luke 20:45).

So when the disciples and Jesus left the temple complex, they went to the mount of Olives, where the disciple inquired further to Jesus about his second coming, in Matthew 24:3.

Part of their inquiring was ""what shall be the sign of thy coming" ? "second" coming is implied because Jesus had already talked about it while in the temple courtyard speaking to the audience gathered around.

So Jesus answered that part of the disciples' Matthew 24:3 question in Matthew 24:29-30a. Informing them of when and what the sign of his second coming will be.

The important thing regarding this thread is when and what will be the sign of the Son of man relative to His second coming.


the great tribulation length 3.jpg
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Actually that is a misconception.....the first “sign” Jesus gave was of his “parousia” (presence) not his “coming” (erchomai)....Christ’s “presence” and his “coming” are separate events.
This is total nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Do you deny that the above passage is directly related to Christ's second coming (erchomai)? It clearly is. And Paul indicated that His second coming is when His parousia will occur. So, no, His "parousia" and His second coming are not separate events.
 

Douggg

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This is total nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Do you deny that the above passage is directly related to Christ's second coming (erchomai)? It clearly is. And Paul indicated that His second coming is when His parousia will occur. So, no, His "parousia" and His second coming are not separate events.
I think Jesus coming in 1Thessalonians4:14-18, which we are to be comforted to know about, is exclusively for the resurrection/rapture event. To take place before the Antichrist's going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. Also comforted to know about in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

There will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ when Jesus returns. But that resurrection will be for the great tribulation martyred saints in Revelation 20:4-6.


rapture timing chart b.jpg
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I think Jesus coming in 1Thessalonians4:14-18, which we are to be comforted to know about, is exclusively for the resurrection/rapture event.
Yeah, I know what you think, Douggg. And you are wrong. We should be comforted to know that we will not have to experience the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" on that day, as Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-11.

To take place before the Antichrist's going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God. Also comforted to know about in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.
I agree that the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. But, as I've shown you multiple times, the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is in relation to being comforted to know that on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night, we will not face His wrath that will result in the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-4). Instead, we will be changed to put on bodily immortality and caught up safely to meet the Lord in the air on that day. What pre-tribs like you don't understand is that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:11 is all about one event that will occur on the day Jesus returns. It will be a glorious day for believers, but a terrible day for unbelievers.
 

Douggg

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I agree that the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.
okay.

But, as I've shown you multiple times, the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is in relation to being comforted to know that on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night,
I think you are getting that from Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

In that particular verse, Jesus is speaking to persons who become Christians during the great tribulation. The resurrection/rapture event of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-1, Thessalonians 5:9-11, will have already happened before then.

We don't know the day nor the hour that resurrection/rapture will happen. It could happen at "any time". ....."any time" before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I think you are getting that from Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

In that particular verse, Jesus is speaking to persons who become Christians during the great tribulation. The resurrection/rapture event of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-1, Thessalonians 5:9-11, will have already happened before then.
Nonsense. You are twisting scripture to fit your view and you do that constantly. You are not understanding that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is all about one event that will happen on a day and in an hour that no one knows, which is the second coming of Christ. Paul indicates that we are not appointed to the wrath of "sudden destruction" that will occur when Jesus comes as a thief in the night because we instead will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So, we can be comforted in knowing that while Jesus is taking vengeance on unbelievers on the earth, we will be brought to safety with Him.

We can also see in the following shorter passage that the resurrection/rapture of believers and wrath of Christ will happen on the same day.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [a]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Clearly, the day when Jesus will "be glorified in His saints and...admired among all those who believe" will be the day of the resurrection and rapture (catching up to meet Christ in the air). Paul indicates that on that same day Jesus will be "taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.". That is what will result in the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" that Paul references in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. In 1 Thessalonians 5:4 he tells believers that day will not overtake us as a thief and that is because we will be changed to put on bodily immortality and will be caught up and brought to safety instead, as he also wrote about. When Paul talks about being comforted in 1 Thess 4:14-18 and 1 Thess 5:9-11, he's talking about being comforted in the fact that we will be safely caught up to meet Christ rather than experiencing His wrath on the day that He comes as a thief in the night.

We don't the day nor the hour that resurrection/rapture will happen. It could happen at "any time". ....."any time" before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.
You are blatantly contradicting what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. He said there that the falling away (mass apostasy) of believers and man of sin being revealed has to occur first before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Notice here in verse 1 that Paul refers to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". We know that no one knows when that day or hour will come. Then in verse 2 Paul again refers to that day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" as "the day of Christ" (other translations say "the day of the Lord") and tells his readers not to be troubled by anyone trying to claim that day had already come. Then in verse 3, Paul indicates that day, which is the day of the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him, "will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed". So, for you to say that it could come any time blatantly contradicts Paul saying that the falling away and man of sin being revealed have to happen first.
 

Marty fox

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Hi Marty, Because of the reaction described in Revelation 6:16-17, Jesus Himself will appear in heaven to the inhabiters of earth.

My illustration shows Jesus only, but from verse 16, not only will Jesus be seen, but a broader view would include the throne of God. And likely the angels and saints making up Jesus's army that will accompany Him (going by what is described in Revelation 19).

What do you think ?

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus told is when revelation 6:16-17 happened

Luke 23
27 A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then

“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’[b]

I believe that the sign on the son of man in heaven was the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem.

Jesus predicted that that would happen in the Olivet Discourse and when that actually happened exactly when Jesus said that it would happen, that was the sign showing that He was the Son of man in heaven
 

Douggg

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You are not understanding that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is all about one event that will happen on a day and in an hour that no one knows, which is the second coming of Christ.
No, the day of Jesus's second coming is known to be on the last day of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9. As far as a calendar date - no one know that calendar date yet because the 7 years has not begun.

You are blatantly contradicting what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. He said there that the falling away (mass apostasy) of believers and man of sin being revealed has to occur first before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.
No, you are not understanding 2Thessalonians2:1-4 correctly.

The gathering unto the Lord is the resurrection/rapture event.

The day of Christ is the day of Lord, which will be triggered when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4.


rapture timing chart b.jpg
 

Douggg

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I believe that the sign on the son of man in heaven was the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem.
Marty, the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem was here on earth. Not in heaven.
 

Marty fox

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Marty, the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem was here on earth. Not in heaven.
Yes and that happening here on earth was showing that Jesus was the son of man up in heaven. It was the sign of Jesus coming in judgement on apostate Israel who rejected Him and killed Him, they didn’t recognize who He was and that He came to them.

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No, the day of Jesus's second coming is known to be on the last day of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39:9. As far as a calendar date - no one know that calendar date yet because the 7 years has not begun.
Nonsense. Jesus did not indicate that anyone would know before that day of His second coming actually comes.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Just as no one knew the day that the flood would come until the day it came, no one will know the day Jesus will return until He comes. Jesus told believers "you do not know what hour your Lord is coming", yet here you are claiming that believers will know 7 years ahead of time. That is complete nonsense. We are told to watch and be ready for Him to come up until the day He actually comes. If we knew He was coming 7 years from now we'd have no need to watch and make sure we are ready for it for the next 7 years.

No, you are not understanding 2Thessalonians2:1-4 correctly.
Yes, I am. I am not convinced by anything you say about any of this even a tiny bit. Our views couldn't possibly be further apart on this.