Is it possible to lose salvation?

[Wrangler]

lol that is a age old argument

Not an answer to my question.

i can post just as many if not more scriptures on the security of salvation

Appeal to Majority. Our salvation is secure on condition of our own fidelity. You will find verses cited in support of security of salvation is outward focused, like no power can overcome God. These are 2 different points.

Of course, no power can defeat God. God restrains himself to respect our choice; if we choose NOT to abide in Christ, THEN Christ will respect that choice AND not abide in us. Can you logically explain the verse any other way?

 

[Ezra]

Our salvation is secure on condition of our own fidelity.

self reliance a work based salvation

Of course, no power can defeat God. God restrains himself to respect our choice; if we choose NOT to abide in Christ, THEN Christ will respect that choice AND not abide in us. Can you logically explain the verse any other way?

no need your convinced you say no power can defeat God.. and then you say we can chose not... explain why we would chose not? so far all you have done is grasp at thin air? your power that keeps you must be A.I because its not strong enough to keep you saved.. we also have .

Jude 1:24-25 KJV Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.​

MY GOD IS ABLE your getting wishywashy on me see i preach a know so salvation paul wrote 2 Timothy 1:12
For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

ITS BEEN FUN AND REAL BUT NOT REAL FUN study up

 

[PinSeeker]

Our salvation is secure on condition of our own fidelity.

Well, yes, but if we have been born again of the Spirit, our will is then to do the will of the Father... rather than to do the will of our former father, the devil. Remember what Jesus says to a group of unbelieving Jews in John 8 and John 10:

"If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did... You are doing the works your father did... If God were your Father, you would love Me... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God" (John 8:39-47)

"...the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:22-30)

So if we have been born again of the Spirit, because we are then of God, our fidelity will remain true to Him. And that is because we are kept in Christ ~ we abide in Him ~ because of the power of the Holy Spirit in us to the end. Without fail. As Paul says to the Philippians, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

You will find verses cited in support of security of salvation is outward focused, like no power can overcome God. These are 2 different points.

Of course, no power can defeat God. God restrains himself to respect our choice; if we choose NOT to abide in Christ, THEN Christ will respect that choice AND not abide in us. Can you logically explain the verse any other way?

Wrangler, if one falls away, why does he or she do that? Well, we can see that clearly in Hebrews 3:12... "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God." So what John says in 1 John 2 is true, that if one does fall away, it was because he or she was never really a Christian in the first place but had an evil, unbelieving heart. John says there that these people are actually "antichrists... they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

But, thanks be to God, He "is able to keep you from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy..." So, "to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." My personal favorite: "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs ~ heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him... If God is for us, who can be against us? ... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ezra]

ut, thanks be to God, He "is able to keep you from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy..

 

[PinSeeker]

Lastly, I'll just throw this out there... What is the Bible's definition of 'faith?' We don't have to guess; Hebrews 11:1 gives it to us explicitly and outright. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This assurance is not of ourselves, else it is no assurance at all. The assurance is given to us by God Himself. He assures us of our salvation. And the conviction is worked in us by the Holy Spirit; it is He Who convicts. If God gives us this faith, He will not take it away, but bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

Again, grace and peace to you.

 

[Ezra]

his assurance is not of ourselves, else it is no assurance at all.

amen

 

[GodsGrace]

And it couldn't have just been an earthquake? Chapter 28:2 mentioned an earthquake at his resurrection.

An earthquake wasn't mentioned.
The tearing of the curtain was associated with the ground shaking.
BUT
it could have been.
The writer seemed to think it was connected.

The meaning should have been obvious to the religious leaders who witnessed it. Hebrews 9:11—10:22 goes into detail about how Jesus' death on the cross opened the way for anyone to approach God through faith in Him. The Jewish sacrificial system that God established for Israel is no longer needed. The ultimate and final sacrifice for sin, which is Jesus Himself, has been made. In both a spiritual and literal way, the barrier between humanity and God has been taken away—by God Himself.

This is all spiritual Berean.
I doubt there's a real gate that has to be opened to let us in.

 

[LoveYeshua]

do what ?

When someone asks, “Do what?”, Jesus already answered this clearly by His own words and by how He dealt with people.

Jesus said, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15). He also said, “Follow me” (Matthew 4:19). Following Him was never just words. It meant listening to Him and doing what He taught. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15), and again, “Whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man” (Matthew 7:24). Love for God was shown by obedience, not by claims.

This is made very clear in the story of the rich young ruler. A man came to Jesus and asked, “Good Master, what shall I do that I may have eternal life?” (Matthew 19:16). Jesus did not say, “Nothing.” Instead, He answered, “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). Jesus then named commandments about not killing, not stealing, not lying, honoring parents, and loving your neighbor. These were real actions in daily life. The man said he had kept them, but Jesus looked deeper into his heart. Jesus said, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven and come and follow me” (Matthew 19:21).

Jesus was not teaching here that money itself was evil. He was showing that this man loved his possessions more than God. The command showed what ruled his heart. The man went away sorrowful because he would not obey. This shows that believing in Jesus without following Him is not enough. Jesus asked for a heart that puts God first and shows love through action.

Jesus also taught that love is lived out in simple deeds. He said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart” and “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39). He said, “Give to him that asketh thee” (Matthew 5:42), and “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me” (Matthew 25:40). Feeding the hungry, helping the weak, and showing mercy were never optional. They were part of following Him.

So when Jesus told people what to do, He was clear. Repent. Believe. Follow Him. Keep His commandments. Love God above all. Love others in real ways. Hear His words and do them. This is what Jesus Himself taught, and this is the path He called people to walk.

 

[GodsGrace]

As all discussions that are based on personal interpretation will never end with any agreement on any issue. That seems to be the standard fare for any Protestant discussion. Man's ego cannot be overcome and personal opinion ends up being as many truths as there are individuals proclaiming their truth. The Bible becomes smorgasbord of options rather than THE TRUTH.
So, have a good new year.

Rightglory,,,
There is a problem.

I know about Catholic theology.
It's great and most of Christian theology is based on it - even though some would not only disagree with this but demand that it not be so. unfortunately, the early church was there and is here. (unfortunately for the non-believers of this fact).

There are problems there however.
The most basic that I can see is that dissemination of theology is woefully lacking in the Catholic community.
Only the deep seekers will find what their church teaches and learn it. Most do not and the church seems not to care too much about this. The "just do what I say" mentality no longer works in at least the past 2 generations (maybe more).

There also exists there some teachings that are clearly not biblical but I'm not getting into those - each "denominaiton" can teach what it sees fit. We have many more problems in Christianity these days than some mistakes we may believe the CC is committing.

On the Protestant side...
Yes. We read the bible for ouselves and come up with our own truth.
Thus, there is no truth.
I hear that we learn from the Holy Spirit....but He doesn't seem to teach everyone the same theology.
I hear that we shouldn't learn from scholars - but they're the ones that are supposed to know what scripture means.
It might mean MORE than we can ever know on our own.

So, yes. you can debate with someone about something.
But the time comes when it has to end because we're engrained in our own truth.

 

[Rightglory]

Rightglory,,,
There is a problem.

I know about Catholic theology.
It's great and most of Christian theology is based on it - even though some would not only disagree with this but demand that it not be so. unfortunately, the early church was there and is here. (unfortunately for the non-believers of this fact).

There are problems there however.
The most basic that I can see is that dissemination of theology is woefully lacking in the Catholic community.
Only the deep seekers will find what their church teaches and learn it. Most do not and the church seems not to care too much about this. The "just do what I say" mentality no longer works in at least the past 2 generations (maybe more).

There also exists there some teachings that are clearly not biblical but I'm not getting into those - each "denomination" can teach what it sees fit. We have many more problems in Christianity these days than some mistakes we may believe the CC is committing.

On the Protestant side...
Yes. We read the bible for ourselves and come up with our own truth.
Thus, there is no truth.
I hear that we learn from the Holy Spirit....but He doesn't seem to teach everyone the same theology.
I hear that we shouldn't learn from scholars - but they're the ones that are supposed to know what scripture means.
It might mean MORE than we can ever know on our own.

So, yes. you can debate with someone about something.
But the time comes when it has to end because we're engrained in our own truth.

The Bible was never meant to be a guide to individual interpretation. Even before and NT letters were written Paul chastised those in Corinth I Cor 1:12 that the Gospel is not according to any one person. God in His wisdom gave us the Gospel through 12 disciples and Apostle Paul. They all taught the same thing, not a gospel according to any one of them The NT Gospel was believed, taught and practiced an entire generation before any NT Book was written.

In II Tim 3:15, Paul clearly states the Church, the Body of Christ established in this world by the Apostles, were the pillar and ground of Truth, Jude 3 states that one should contend earnestly for the faith ONCE given for all. In Acts 15: 6FF the Church has followed the principle of Church Councils to iron out misunderstandings so that the Truth remains unified, not split into factions and denominations.
Thus after the Apostolic times the Holy Spirit has not given to anyone additional Truth.. The work of the Holy Spirit is to guide the Church, the Body in that Truth. To lead others to the Truth. Scripture is NOT the Truth. It is a history of THE TRUTH. The Truth is Christ. He, through the Holy Spirit, works in and through His Body over which He is the Head. Not some individual man even if he is a Pope.

However man being man, there were several breaks in the Church over the centuries. The first significant one was the split that occurred after the Council of Chalcedon. It was over the correct understanding of the Humanity of Christ.
The next, though it took 6 centuries to finally become permanent was the break, historians generally make it the 11th century, when the Western Patriarch, Rome left the Church and we have the Eastern/Orthodox and Western/Roman Catholic. It was not until the Reformation that the next major break occurs.
In their cry against the RC for adding to scripture and developing new concepts extra to Scripture, they put the idea of man's interpretation of scripture on steroids. This innovative idea of sola Scriptura is the guiding principle of all Protestants in determining what is Truth for them. No one can ever determine what is false or unscriptural. What happens is that everything outside of one's own interpretation is false. The fallacy should be manifest.

 

[Behold]

Jesus said, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15).

Your verse is teaching the "gospel of the Kingdom" and that is because Jesus was on Earth, He had come.

He's not here now, so, that Gospel is not the Body of Christ Gospel.,, which is the one that Paul gave us.
Its the one that has Jesus on the Cross shedding His blood for your sin.
You wont find Jesus preaching that one to the Jews in your verse, as He had not died on the Cross yet, so that Gospel, (Paul's) was not available yet.

 

[Behold]

Scripture is NOT the Truth.

Actually, the Bible itself says...."thy word is Truth",.

The longest chapter in the bible states that "God exalts His word, above his own Name".

What word?

A.) The Scriptures.......the Bible......the word of God.

So, you can believe this and be a part of the Truth, or you can deny it and be a part of the darkness that does not accept that the BIBLE, the world of God, is Truth.

There is a line drawn in the Spirit, and that line separates the carnal who do not accept the authority of the bible, vs, those who do understand that the Bible is the final authoriity regarding truth and church doctrine, as well as spirituality.

The reason that the Holy Spirit flows perfectly with the Bible, is because He wrote it......and men just wrote it down.

 

[Wrangler]

the bible states that "God exalts His word, above his own Name".

What verse is that?

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible was never meant to be a guide to individual interpretation. Even before and NT letters were written Paul chastised those in Corinth I Cor 1:12 that the Gospel is not according to any one person. God in His wisdom gave us the Gospel through 12 disciples and Apostle Paul. They all taught the same thing, not a gospel according to any one of them The NT Gospel was believed, taught and practiced an entire generation before any NT Book was written.

Agreed. Jesus instructed the Apostles...not all His disciples.
Matthew 28:19
And they all taught the same.
From Jesus to Paul.

In II Tim 3:15, Paul clearly states the Church, the Body of Christ established in this world by the Apostles, were the pillar and ground of Truth,

You mean 1 Timothy 3:15
Yes. The church is the bastion of truth.

Jude 3 states that one should contend earnestly for the faith ONCE given for all. In Acts 15: 6FF the Church has followed the principle of Church Councils to iron out misunderstandings so that the Truth remains unified, not split into factions and denominations.

Any yet many Christians on these very Forums will state that they do not believe in Creeds...the very foundation of our faith and confirmation of the beliefs of our faith.

Thus after the Apostolic times the Holy Spirit has not given to anyone additional Truth.. The work of the Holy Spirit is to guide the Church, the Body in that Truth. To lead others to the Truth. Scripture is NOT the Truth. It is a history of THE TRUTH. The Truth is Christ. He, through the Holy Spirit, works in and through His Body over which He is the Head. Not some individual man even if he is a Pope.

Agreed.
We should always be leading others to Jesus...
not to a denomination.

However man being man, there were several breaks in the Church over the centuries. The first significant one was the split that occurred after the Council of Chalcedon. It was over the correct understanding of the Humanity of Christ.
The next, though it took 6 centuries to finally become permanent was the break, historians generally make it the 11th century, when the Western Patriarch, Rome left the Church and we have the Eastern/Orthodox and Western/Roman Catholic. It was not until the Reformation that the next major break occurs.

I guess you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true church.

In their cry against the RC for adding to scripture and developing new concepts extra to Scripture, they put the idea of man's interpretation of scripture on steroids. This innovative idea of sola Scriptura is the guiding principle of all Protestants in determining what is Truth for them. No one can ever determine what is false or unscriptural. What happens is that everything outside of one's own interpretation is false. The fallacy should be manifest.

I agree...but I also believe that the CC did develop new concepts but I'll not be addressing this.

As to Sola Scriptura - yes, it does not seem to work well.

I like to refer to the ECFs.

 

[Behold]

What verse is that?

KJ21
I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy name for Thy lovingkindness and for Thy truth, for Thou hast magnified Thy word above all Thy name.

ASV
I will worship toward thy holy temple, And give thanks unto thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

AMP
I will bow down [in worship] toward Your holy temple And give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word together with Your name.

AMPC
I will worship toward Your holy temple and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth and faithfulness; for You have exalted above all else Your name and Your word and You have magnified Your word above all Your name!

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, the Bible itself says...."thy word is Truth",.

The longest chapter in the bible states that "God exalts His word, above his own Name".

What word?

A.) The Scriptures.......the Bible......the word of God.

So, you can believe this and be a part of the Truth, or you can deny it and be a part of the darkness that does not accept that the BIBLE, the world of God, is Truth.

There is a line drawn in the Spirit, and that line separates the carnal who do not accept the authority of the bible, vs, those who do understand that the Bible is the final authoriity regarding truth and church doctrine, as well as spirituality.

The reason that the Holy Spirit flows perfectly with the Bible, is because He wrote it......and men just wrote it down.

So, Behold, please explain if SOLA SCRIPTURA works well....
WHY do we not agree on OSAS??

 

[Behold]

You mean 1 Timothy 3:15
Yes. The church is the bastion of truth.

There was no MaryCult when your verse was written.

So, this verse is not talking about A Demomination, nor is it describing all Denominations.

Its speaking about this...>>"the temple of the Holy Spirit", and that is every born again Christian, as each is "the church". = the Body of Christ.
And that is not a building, or a denomination, and its certainly not something that kneels before plastic statues of Mary and prays to Her.

 

[Behold]

WHY do we not agree on OSAS??

OSAS is a 2000 yrs old JEWISH cult teaching that teaches that Paul's Gospel is teaching "license to sin".

OSAS, tickles the ears of Catholics and all others who believe that they have more power to go to Hell then Jesus's Blood has the power to keep them saved.
These "types" are afflicted.. they are inflicted with : SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that is why they LOVE to argue OSAS, as this is their opportunity to try to prove in publc, that they are in charge of their own Salvation, vs giving Jesus the ENTIRE Credit for saving them and keeping them saved.

So, they are the issue, and OSAS is just their pet excuse they use to make certain they are trying to stay saved, vs, trusting in Christ to keep them saved.

So, this gospel subverting Jewish nonsense was being taught when Paul was down here, and its a contradiction of His Gospel, that is designed to keep you from understanding God's Grace, that He is teaching, and it will once this cult teaching owns your mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

There was no MaryCult when your verse was written.

So, this verse is not talking about A Demomination, nor is it describing all Denominations.

Its speaking about this...>>"the temple of the Holy Spirit", and that is every born again Christian, as each is "the church". = the Body of Christ.
And that is not a building, or a denomination, and its certainly not something that kneels before plastic statues of Mary and prays to Her.

Behold,,,there was a CHURCH even in the time immediately following Jesus.
If you remember they were HOUSE churches and they all taught the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

OSAS is a 2000 yrs old JEWISH cult teaching that teaches that Paul's Gospel is teaching "license to sin".

OSAS, tickles the ears of Catholics and all others who believe that they have more power to go to Hell then Jesus's Blood has the power to keep them saved.
These "types" are afflicted.. they are inflicted with : SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and that is why they LOVE to argue OSAS, as this is their opportunity to try to prove in publc, that they are in charge of their own Salvation, vs giving Jesus the ENTIRE Credit for saving them and keeping them saved.

So, they are the issue, and OSAS is just their pet excuse they use to make certain they are trying to stay saved, vs, trusting in Christ to keep them saved.

So, this gospel subverting Jewish nonsense was being taught when Paul was down here, and its a contradiction of His Gospel, that is designed to keep you from understanding God's Grace, that He is teaching, and it will once this cult teaching owns your mind.

Here's the problem:
I believe OSAS is heretical.
YOU believe it's scriptural.

THUS
SOLA SCRIPTURA does not function.