"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

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XtraPercept

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The Lord gives abundantly to his servants and rightly requires a proportionate response, whereas men often give sparingly while demanding far more than they deserve.

The proportionate response of the servant is to bless abundantly by the expression of his God through the overflowing love demonstrated in manners beyond all human capacity. As befits the beloved of the Most High.

Selfishness is a symptom of blindness, which is from the obfuscation of clarity by way of a conscience dirtied with perverted expressions.
 

Marvelloustime

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Not in the least .
You brought up a solution . You said i must not be reading the bible .
So i simply asked a question .
How much and how often should i be reading it .
You may answer . its just a question . You brought a solution . i aint arguring against it .
I think it sounds like a good idea .
SO how often and how long s hould i read it my friend . If a man is asking for advice
and not fighting , HOW hard is it for you to answer his question . I agree , I sh ould be reading my bible
So give me an idea .
@amigo de christo
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XtraPercept

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@amigo de christo , @Marvelloustime , why do we bludgeon eachother?

Delight in the Spirit is found in that which uplifts, edifies, and instructs. May we demonstrate first our skill in love and all those aspects of character to which none can object.
 

amigo de christo

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@amigo de christo , @Marvelloustime , why do we bludgeon eachother?

Delight in the Spirit is found in that which uplifts, edifies, and instructs. May we demonstrate first our skill in love and all those aspects of character to which none can object.
neither yourself , i or this sister are doing that .
We cannot just t ry and get along at the expense of TRUTH .
Speaking the truth and correcting is not bludgeon .
Though i know some do that .
But we must bring the entire center of everything BACK on GOD , which includes HIS WORDS
Christ Jesus and all sound doctrine .
IF we simply just try and get along at the expense of truth , and not correcting
that is exactly how leaven will and does take over .
And if you notice i keep it mostly on reminding us all about THE TRUE GOSPEL and to beware teh false ecumenical one .
I am trying to get us all back to the bible and on that gospel . Because this other love stuff
IS NOT OF GOD at all and its been leading this people into now even acceptance of sins
and even unbeleif as other religoins are now being seen as vaild and of GOD . ITs all a lie .
SO i am simply trying to get us all back into the bible again . mostly that is all that i do . point to JESUS
and remind us TO BELIEVE ALL OF HIS WORDS , all the doctrine the church left us in that bible .
 
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Adventageous

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I have "the Book" and nowhere does teach the pre-existence of the Son of David or a triune god.
I noticed you capitalized "Book" (referring to the Bible), but I was referring to the book (lowercase) I linked to, which may be of assistance to you, as it has many references. Do you follow scriptural commands (Pro. 18:13,17 KJB)?

If you do not desire to read the linked material, how then will you know it does not teach "a triune god", and where did I say that "the Book" (Bible) does? Why do you assume that it does, or that I think the Bible does, without even having read it to say such? I am curious, is that how you approach all materials shared with you (ie. you make an a priori assumption based on what you think it says and then reject them based upon that conclusion)? I am not attempting to be cruel here, but am simply asking how your thought process works in such a situation as this.

As for the "Son of David", He (in scripture) is called both the "root" and "offspring" of David. As for instance:
Rev_22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.​

In John 1, John the Baptist, as inspired of the Holy Ghost, states of Jesus [whose name means 'JEHOVAH is salvation']:

Joh_1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.​
Joh_1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.​

How do you explain those words ("root", & "was before me") as not meaning pre-existant, and existing before David & John the Baptist existed?
 

keithr

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AND i also didnt SEE JESUS tell all them who threw their crowns before HIS FEET
TO cease , get up and WORSHIP GOD . this people has no idea who they are accusing of being a liar
an , I AINT if you will . I shudder for such folks . I really do .
You need to read the Bible more carefully. John sees God sitting on a throne in heaven - Revelation 4 WEB:

(2) Immediately I was in the Spirit. Behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting on the throne
(5) Out of the throne proceed lightnings, sounds, and thunders. There were seven lamps of fire burning before his throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.​
(6) Before the throne was something like a sea of glass, similar to crystal. In the middle of the throne, and around the throne were four living creatures full of eyes before and behind.​
(8) The four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within. They have no rest day and night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come!”​

The resurrected Christians are symbolically represented by the 24 elders:

(10) the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives forever and ever, and throw their crowns before the throne, saying,​
(11) “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for you created all things, and because of your desire they existed, and were created!”​

They throw their crowns before almighty god YHVH's feet, not Jesus' feet.

Continuing - Revelation 5 WEB

(1) I saw, in the right hand of him who sat on the throne, a book written inside and outside, sealed shut with seven seals.​
(2) I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book, and to break its seals?”​
(3) No one in heaven above, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book, or to look in it.​
(4) And I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open the book, or to look in it.​
(5) One of the elders said to me, “Don’t weep. Behold, the Lion who is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome; he who opens the book and its seven seals.”​
(6) I saw in the middle of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the middle of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.​
(7) Then he came, and he took it out of the right hand of him who sat on the throne.​
(8) Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​
(9) They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​
(11) I saw, and I heard something like a voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousands of ten thousands, and thousands of thousands;​
(12) saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who has been killed to receive the power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing!”​
(13) I heard every created thing which is in heaven, on the earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever! Amen!”​

John then sees Jesus approaching God and taking the book (scroll) from God's right hand. The resurrected Christians, and the four creatures, fall down before Jesus and say that Jesus was worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because he was killed (God is immortal and cannot be killed), and bought us for God. The myriads of angels then say that Jesus (who has been killed) was worthy to receive power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing. Jesus receives that power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing from God. Then every created living being says may "the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever" be to God and to Jesus.

Revelation 4 and 5 make no sense if Jesus is God; they only make sense when you read what it says, that Jesus, the slain Lamb of God, bought us through his death (the price for our redemption), and bought us for God. Jesus has proved himself, as God's only begotten Son, to be worthy to receive power, wealth, wisdom, strengh, honour, glory and blessing from God.

So you are wrong, the only verse in the Bible that describes people throwing their crowns before anybody's feet, does not say that their crowns were thrown before Jesus' feet.

So I throw it back at you, you've "no idea who you are accusing of being a liar". "I shudder for such folks" that can't understand what they are reading (I mean the Bible! I'll ignore your errors in understanding my last two posts in this thread).
 
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keithr

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It's a small g?

So which god is 2 Cor 4:4 referring to?
I don't know why you are asking that! Why didn't you just read what I wrote, as it answers your question! I wrote:

The "god of this world" is referring to Satan. That's the same Greek word that's translated as god (theos) that's used to refer to almighty God YHVH later in the verse, which is written in the English translation with a capital G out of reverence to God.​
 

Marvelloustime

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neither yourself , i or this sister are doing that .
We cannot just t ry and get along at the expense of TRUTH .
Speaking the truth and correcting is not bludgeon .
Though i know some do that .
But we must bring the entire center of everything BACK on GOD , which includes HIS WORDS
Christ Jesus and all sound doctrine .
IF we simply just try and get along at the expense of truth , and not correcting
that is exactly how leaven will and does take over .
And if you notice i keep it mostly on reminding us all about THE TRUE GOSPEL and to beware teh false ecumenical one .
I am trying to get us all back to the bible and on that gospel . Because this other love stuff
IS NOT OF GOD at all and its been leading this people into now even acceptance of sins
and even unbeleif as other religoins are now being seen as vaild and of GOD . ITs all a lie .
SO i am simply trying to get us all back into the bible again . mostly that is all that i do . point to JESUS
and remind us TO BELIEVE ALL OF HIS WORDS , all the doctrine the church left us in that bible .
@amigo de christo
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XtraPercept

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neither yourself , i or this sister are doing that .
We cannot just t ry and get along at the expense of TRUTH .
Speaking the truth and correcting is not bludgeon .
Though i know some do that .
But we must bring the entire center of everything BACK on GOD , which includes HIS WORDS
Christ Jesus and all sound doctrine .
IF we simply just try and get along at the expense of truth , and not correcting
that is exactly how leaven will and does take over .
And if you notice i keep it mostly on reminding us all about THE TRUE GOSPEL and to beware teh false ecumenical one .
I am trying to get us all back to the bible and on that gospel . Because this other love stuff
IS NOT OF GOD at all and its been leading this people into now even acceptance of sins
and even unbeleif as other religoins are now being seen as vaild and of GOD . ITs all a lie .
SO i am simply trying to get us all back into the bible again . mostly that is all that i do . point to JESUS
and remind us TO BELIEVE ALL OF HIS WORDS , all the doctrine the church left us in that bible .

At which point did Paul sacrifice his civility in the expression of the truth of Christ? What lie have I spoken that you are offended by me?

In your contentions, which of you delights God? Does He smile upon either or both of you?
 
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amigo de christo

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At which point did Paul sacrifice his civility in the expression of the truth of Christ? What lie have I spoken that you are offended by me?

In your contentions, which of you delights God? Does He smile upon either or both of you?
what on this green earth are you even talking about my friend .
 

GodsGrace

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I don't know why you are asking that! Why didn't you just read what I wrote, as it answers your question! I wrote:

The "god of this world" is referring to Satan. That's the same Greek word that's translated as god (theos) that's used to refer to almighty God YHVH later in the verse, which is written in the English translation with a capital G out of reverence to God.​
Please clarify....

You said that later on in the scripture the word God is capitalized out of reverence to God.
THAT word is not referring to satan - however you did not specify which verse capitalized God out of reverence.

Why should we accept what YOU believe...
instead of accepting HOW the NT translates ANY word that means theos.

When speaking of God Almighty, the creator of the universe,
the word God is always capitalized.....

because it means GOD and not any other god.....

of which, for instance, the JWs make Jesus out to be a god
in their version of John 1:1
And the Word was a god.

To finish....
Jesus is GOD
not a god
and not god.
 

XtraPercept

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what on this green earth are you even talking about my friend .

Paul preached a unifying faith. He preached truth from a foundation of knowing nothing as certain but Christ crucified. The Gospel and it's fulfilment of the law and prophets was the fundamental component of Paul's logic in arguing the reasons which support God's divine truth.

All I see argued in churches and forums today are the bones of dead men, as the Bible calls them; the doctrines and theologies of men who strayed from God in their attempts to prove themselves outside of His will. One argues Calvin, another still harkens to Tyndale, while myriad zealots swear exclusively by the Authorized Version, which relies entirely on the textus receptus and was decently comprehendible 500 years ago.

Names and numbers do not make adequate substitutes for the ideas from which they were extracted! The heavily Calvinistic Geneva Bible introduced these verse numbers, permitting rapid reference for ripping words out of context and formulating new and perverse ideas against the will of God.

If we draw from the Fountain of Living Water, the names and numbers are buried with the bones of dead men while instead the Spirit nourishes us from the eternal words we have stored within our hearts for love of them. It is from this well that we will find the solutions we desire, if we truly desire Christ.

John effectively equated God and the Word. Thus I seek to ensure that my use of the latter is in accordance with the One who defines them all. The right words, in the eyes of God, are always ready to be spoken with certainty and pride in the majesty of the God for Whom they are spoken.
 

Berean

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Something that came to me that blew my socks off:

"Before Abraham Was, I AM" (Jn.8:58)
Actually, according to Strong's, it can also mean "exist". I think it's a stretch to assume Jesus was using that term as a title. Most translations capitalize I AM, but there's nothing in the John account in the original Greek that suggests it should be capitalized.

The word for I AM is Strong's 1510 eimi. It's uses throughout the scriptures and never once is it capitalized except in John 8.
It's used in Romans 1:14; 7:14; 1 Cor 1:12; 7:8; 9:2 and so many others.
 

Hiddenthings

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I noticed you capitalized "Book" (referring to the Bible), but I was referring to the book (lowercase) I linked to, which may be of assistance to you, as it has many references. Do you follow scriptural commands (Pro. 18:13,17 KJB)?

If you do not desire to read the linked material, how then will you know it does not teach "a triune god", and where did I say that "the Book" (Bible) does? Why do you assume that it does, or that I think the Bible does, without even having read it to say such? I am curious, is that how you approach all materials shared with you (ie. you make an a priori assumption based on what you think it says and then reject them based upon that conclusion)? I am not attempting to be cruel here, but am simply asking how your thought process works in such a situation as this.

As for the "Son of David", He (in scripture) is called both the "root" and "offspring" of David. As for instance:
Rev_22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.​
Interesting the Master still in his glorified state considers himself to be of David.
In John 1, John the Baptist, as inspired of the Holy Ghost, states of Jesus [whose name means 'JEHOVAH is salvation']:

Joh_1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.​
Joh_1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.​

How do you explain those words ("root", & "was before me") as not meaning pre-existant, and existing before David & John the Baptist existed?
Are you suggesting there is only one way to interpret this? In John 8, the Lord himself explains what is meant and how his words are to be understood, perhaps you can find it there.
 

GodsGrace

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The implications of confusing my son with me are less significant than (but not altogether unlike) what you do here.

Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus is THE SON.
The Word.
The Second Person of the Trinity

Jesus is God.

Perhaps you don't believe the NT....


Titus 2:9-10
9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.

God is our savior.


John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”


Jesus is both Lord and God. And He did not correct Thomas.

Hebrews 1:8
8But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God,



The Son is referred to as God.


Titus 2:13
13Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


Jesus is our great God and Savior.


2 Peter 1:1
1Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


Jesus is our God and Savior.


John 1:18
18No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.


The only God...who is at the right side of the Father.....(God is at the right hand of God).


Romans 9.5
5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all,


Jesus is God over everything.


1 John 5:20
20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


Jesus is the true God.


Acts 20:28
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the
church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

G
od has blood?
God Father has no blood.
God Son has blood which was shed for believers.


You may choose not to believe what Paul, Peter and John teach.....
but they teach that Jesus is God.

I prefer to believe the New Testament writers.
 
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XtraPercept

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The Second Person of the Trinity
...

I prefer to believe the New Testament writers.

The last NT book was written 100 years before the idea of the trinity began taking shape with Origen. The blasphemous mystery math leavened the bread more heavily another 150 years after that with the codification of doctrine in the form of the Nicene Creed.

You don't even know what the holy Spirit is because you refuse to consider alternative ideas thinking that you are holy for insisting on a concept of God's identity you will readily admit is inherently incomprehensible.

Paul told us he was using plain words in his writings, not fancy words. How I would have loved to read his fancy words. But the plain words are as they are and they are twisted still today. Jesus is the Son of God, and you are confused because you cling to a lie.

The truth always makes sense, and in those instances where it is undeniably clear, we call it wisdom. If it leads to unanswerable questions, it is not from God.
 
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Adventageous

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Interesting the Master still in his glorified state considers himself to be of David.

Are you suggesting there is only one way to interpret this? In John 8, the Lord himself explains what is meant and how his words are to be understood, perhaps you can find it there.
Well the name "David", H1732, same as H1730, means "love / loving". The Son is the Son of Love (God the Father), as well as being a literal physical descendant to the earthly human King David. This means He has the right to rule in both spheres.

There is only the Bible's (thus God's; Gen. 40:8) interpretation of anything given in scripture. I would think Jhn. 1 was pretty clear in what John the Baptist stated in regards the pre-existence of 'the Son of David'.

As for John 8, are you referring to:

Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.​
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.​
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.​
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.​
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.​
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.​
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?​
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

Those words, all indicate of Jesus' pre-existence, and having been with the Father in heaven, and being sent from there, to earth with the Father's words for mankind. How does Jhn. 8 say anything differently than Jhn. 1 in that He "was before" John the Baptist? "Whence" and "whither" is a location, and in the context is referring to where the Father in the 3rd heaven dwells, and of which He states that He knew He had come from there. He clearly states that He is "from above" and "not of this world", which means He is from the heavenly world above where the Father dwells. He says that He directly "proceeded forth and came from God" His Father in being "sent". He uses the phrase "I am" twice in connection with His own existence, in being in existence "before" Abraham, which coincides with being "before" John the Baptist.

If I missed something in Jhn. 8, please make it more plain to me in what you were referring to.
 

Hiddenthings

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If I missed something in Jhn. 8, please make it more plain to me in what you were referring to.
Firstly, John 8 addresses the question of “whose father” you are from, Abraham or the other line, the seed of the serpent, like Cain.

Christ’s reference to Abraham is intended to affirm his pre-eminence, not his pre-existence.

Unfortunately, entrenched false teachings have taken hold in your thinking, and they are preventing you from grasping the Lord’s intended meaning.

The Jews had claimed Abraham as their father (v. 39), and Jesus responds by establishing his supreme place in God’s redemptive purpose. When he says, “Before Abraham was, I am,” he does not say, “Before Abraham was, I was,” as is often assumed. The distinction is important.

The Jews, much like modern Trinitarians misunderstood his words. Jesus was not claiming to be literally older than Abraham. This is made clear by his earlier statement: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad” (v. 56). Abraham did not see Christ physically, but by faith. To Abraham the gospel was preached beforehand (Gal. 3:8), and through faith he perceived the coming Messiah.

You need to read Christ's words with faith in mind and the Gospel which was preached to Abraham!

Christ, therefore, existed in the divine purpose, not as a conscious, pre-existent being. He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times” (1 Pet 1:20). Likewise, he is described as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), not because he was literally slain then, but because his sacrifice was determined in God’s purpose long before it was historically accomplished under Pontius Pilate.

In this way, Jesus’ words affirm his central place in God’s eternal plan, rather than asserting a literal personal existence prior to his birth.
 
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